JOHN 1:1 who is the WORD?

[NickHassan]

Hi charity,
Are you relying on gnostic ideas?

[charity]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 27 2008,20:42)

Hi charity, Are you relying on gnostic ideas?

NO I have to many Ideas of my own, I don't walk with books under my arms Nick. who wants to be a crocodiles Hand bag?

blessing

[gollamudi]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 27 2008,03:53)

Adam…..you have correctly present John 1:1, brother, if John was meaning Jesus he simply would have written it there instead the word Logos.  May God continue to bless you with understanding of the truth. love to you and yours…………….gene

Thank you brother Gene for your appreciation. In fact I got more insights from your posts only.

May God continue to give you more and more revelations.

Peace and love to you
Adam

[Proclaimer]

Angels are called 'elohim' and 'elohim' is often called “theos” in Greek or the NT.

It also appears that the Judges were called 'theos' maybe because their authority was given by God, even if the made a hash of it.

But whether Jesus is called 'theos' because he is divine, or because he has been given authority by God, either choice doesn't equate Jesus as being the Most High God.

Acts 2:36,
“Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”

So who made Jesus both Lord and Christ?

[charity]

The first prophecy wrttin about the Mission of Jesus

Jesus the SERVANT chastened by the rod of Man

2Sa 7:12¶And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took [it] from Saul, whom I put away before thee.

we have more than one god preaching in the book called the bible

[NickHassan]

Hi Charity,
Can any man do anything outside of God's sovereign will?

On him was laid all our iniquity.

John 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

The scapegoat.

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (gollamudi @ Sep. 26 2008,20:50)

Hi all, Here are some arguements on Jn 1:1 which I have taken from a site. Please gothrough with open mind. ” In the beginning was the Word,     and the Word was with God,     and the Word was God.”        (John 1:1)   Perceived by the “man of extraordinary faith”: The verse says;   In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God. Explanation:   The text does not read “In the beginning was Jesus”. John did not write the word Jesus in his original manuscript. If he had meant that, he could have simply used the name Jesus. John wrote what he knew to be the Truth. In the beginning was the “Spoken Word” (i.e. God's Command). “Jesus” happens to be a SUBSTITUTION of the Greek word “Logos” used by the apostle. In reality the bible readers are implying, suggesting, alluding or insinuating the name of Jesus. The concept of SUBSTITUTING the original Greek term 'Logos' with “Jesus” has been the traditional norm for the past many centuries. Hence it is not easy to believe otherwise. Is this “substitution” any where closer to the literal translation of the Greek word “Logos”? The answer is, No.      The Greek term 'Logos' is derived from the root word 'Lego' meaning “to speak”.  The literal translation of the word 'Logos' is “something spoken, thought”. A Command that is spoken. A thought that is expressed. The verification of this literal translation is very simple. Please refer to any good English Dictionary. Under the word 'Decalogue' you will find the meaning; “The Ten Commandments”, (deka = ten; logous = commands). The dictionary also translates the word 'Logos' as “discourse, reason, (rarely) word”.   With the traditional “substitution” the verse reads; “and Jesus was with God and Jesus was God.” How can Jesus be “with” God, and “was” God, as well? It defies the logic(the chain of thoughts). The literal translation reads:      In the beginning was the 'spoken word, command',        and the 'spoken word, command' was with God,        and the 'spoken word, command' was Divine.  (John 1:1)   The opening of John's Gospel coincides perfectly with the prologue of the Book of Genesis which reads; “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. And the God said, Let there be light; and there was light.”   (Genesis 1:1/ 3). The translation of 'Logos' as “Divine” in the last line is based upon the usage of Greek grammar. Here is the brief explanation for those who are interested in the grammar. In the second line, the phrase used by John for “God” is 'ho theo', meaning 'the God'. In the last line it is simply 'theo', the definitive article 'the' is missing. It is not written because here  'Theo' is a predicate of the preceding subject. The predicate is used to denote the nature, quality, attribute or property of the subject. In this instance the nature of the God's spoken command happens to be “Divine”. In 'New translation of the Bible' (1922) by the famous Dr. James Moffatt, it reads; “the Logos was Divine”. And, the similar translations appear in 'The Complete Bible – An American Translation' (Smith-Goodspeed); 'The Authentic New Testament' by Hugh J. Schonfield and the translations done by; Haenchen, Lyder Brun and Madsen. Notes: John 1:2 & 3 would also translate perfectly with the literal translation and further compliment the opening passages from the Book Of Genesis.  The Greek word  'houtos' {3778} should be literally translated as “the same” (meaning, the spoken word),  instead of “he”. In the King James Version, it reads; “The same was in the beginning with God”, which supports the above clarification. Hence, John 1:2 & 3 should read:   It (the Command) was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through it (the Command) and without it (the Command) not one thing came into being. Please read Genesis 1: 3, 6, 11, 14, 20 & 24. It will compel the readers to admit the Truth.  In Isaiah 45:12 God says; I made the earth and created humankind upon it; it was my hands that stretched out the heavens, and I commanded all their hosts. Those who prefer to substitute the “Logos” with Jesus and read; “All things came into being through him (Jesus)”, are requested to read Mt. 19:4.   While drawing the attention of the Pharisees to the Old Testament passages (e.g. Gen. 1:27, 5:2 and Is. 45:12), Jesus clearly points out that it was God Himself (not he), who created the mankind. Notes: John 1: 4   With the literal translation John 1:4 would read: In it (the spoken Command) was life, and the life was the light for all people.   Notes: John 1: 6 to 9 Here we aretold that John the Baptist was sent into this world in advance.  He himself was not the light. But John was sent as a witness to testify that light, so that all might believe through him in what was to come. This true light, which enlightens everyone , was coming into this world after him. The rest is easy to follow once we understand the most important verse number 14. Notes: John 1:14 And the “Logos” (the spoken word, Command, wherein was life and light) became flesh (by entering the womb of Virgin Mary). No Bible reader can deny the fact that whenever God wanted to create anything (e.g. Light, Vegetation, Living Creatures, etc.,) He had been using His Commands to do just that. In this instance, He chose to make His Righteous Messiah through this unique “one of a kind” (John 3:16) Command.  Briefly, it was the Command of God that became flesh (the body of Jesus within Mary). This also explains the Virgin Birth through Mary.   To say that God Himself became flesh (Jesus, upon this earth) is not only a grave blasphemy but has been explicitly and repeatedly negated by Jesus himself, as shown from the beginning of this article. The only other alternative would be to say; the God Incarnate came to this earth and the God made an utterly false statement, concerning the CRUCIAL issue of having “the eternal life”, in John 17:3.  The choice is yours, which to adopt and what to reject. Study Supportive Passage: If John wanted to write “Jesus”, why would he write “Logos” instead? There is no record of Jesus being ever addressed as “Logos” by any one in the New Testament. “…if any one proclaims  to you a Gospel contrary to what you have received, let that one be accursed.” Galatians 1:9.   May God bless you Adam

To All…..read this again, and let the false teaching of Trinitarians and Preexistences go, and maybe God will let this blindness of them leave you..

love and peace to All……………gene

[Not3in1]

Thanks, Adam!
Love,
Mandy

[NickHassan]

Hi GM,
It does not explain why scripture goes to great pains to tell us this WORD was WITH GOD.

Are you suggesting that the ANOINTING of the Christ, the Spirit, was the WORD?

JESUS was not made CHRIST, the anointed one, till the Jordan.

So the WORD that became flesh was not the SPIRIT

[Lightenup]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 28 2008,14:29)

Quote (gollamudi @ Sep. 26 2008,20:50) Hi all, Here are some arguements on Jn 1:1 which I have taken from a site. Please gothrough with open mind. ” In the beginning was the Word,     and the Word was with God,     and the Word was God.”        (John 1:1)   Perceived by the “man of extraordinary faith”: The verse says;   In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God. Explanation:   The text does not read “In the beginning was Jesus”. John did not write the word Jesus in his original manuscript. If he had meant that, he could have simply used the name Jesus. John wrote what he knew to be the Truth. In the beginning was the “Spoken Word” (i.e. God's Command). “Jesus” happens to be a SUBSTITUTION of the Greek word “Logos” used by the apostle. In reality the bible readers are implying, suggesting, alluding or insinuating the name of Jesus. The concept of SUBSTITUTING the original Greek term 'Logos' with “Jesus” has been the traditional norm for the past many centuries. Hence it is not easy to believe otherwise. Is this “substitution” any where closer to the literal translation of the Greek word “Logos”? The answer is, No.      The Greek term 'Logos' is derived from the root word 'Lego' meaning “to speak”.  The literal translation of the word 'Logos' is “something spoken, thought”. A Command that is spoken. A thought that is expressed. The verification of this literal translation is very simple. Please refer to any good English Dictionary. Under the word 'Decalogue' you will find the meaning; “The Ten Commandments”, (deka = ten; logous = commands). The dictionary also translates the word 'Logos' as “discourse, reason, (rarely) word”.   With the traditional “substitution” the verse reads; “and Jesus was with God and Jesus was God.” How can Jesus be “with” God, and “was” God, as well? It defies the logic(the chain of thoughts). The literal translation reads:      In the beginning was the 'spoken word, command',        and the 'spoken word, command' was with God,        and the 'spoken word, command' was Divine.  (John 1:1)   The opening of John's Gospel coincides perfectly with the prologue of the Book of Genesis which reads; “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. And the God said, Let there be light; and there was light.”   (Genesis 1:1/ 3). The translation of 'Logos' as “Divine” in the last line is based upon the usage of Greek grammar. Here is the brief explanation for those who are interested in the grammar. In the second line, the phrase used by John for “God” is 'ho theo', meaning 'the God'. In the last line it is simply 'theo', the definitive article 'the' is missing. It is not written because here  'Theo' is a predicate of the preceding subject. The predicate is used to denote the nature, quality, attribute or property of the subject. In this instance the nature of the God's spoken command happens to be “Divine”. In 'New translation of the Bible' (1922) by the famous Dr. James Moffatt, it reads; “the Logos was Divine”. And, the similar translations appear in 'The Complete Bible – An American Translation' (Smith-Goodspeed); 'The Authentic New Testament' by Hugh J. Schonfield and the translations done by; Haenchen, Lyder Brun and Madsen. Notes: John 1:2 & 3 would also translate perfectly with the literal translation and further compliment the opening passages from the Book Of Genesis.  The Greek word  'houtos' {3778} should be literally translated as “the same” (meaning, the spoken word),  instead of “he”. In the King James Version, it reads; “The same was in the beginning with God”, which supports the above clarification. Hence, John 1:2 & 3 should read:   It (the Command) was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through it (the Command) and without it (the Command) not one thing came into being. Please read Genesis 1: 3, 6, 11, 14, 20 & 24. It will compel the readers to admit the Truth.  In Isaiah 45:12 God says; I made the earth and created humankind upon it; it was my hands that stretched out the heavens, and I commanded all their hosts. Those who prefer to substitute the “Logos” with Jesus and read; “All things came into being through him (Jesus)”, are requested to read Mt. 19:4.   While drawing the attention of the Pharisees to the Old Testament passages (e.g. Gen. 1:27, 5:2 and Is. 45:12), Jesus clearly points out that it was God Himself (not he), who created the mankind. Notes: John 1: 4   With the literal translation John 1:4 would read: In it (the spoken Command) was life, and the life was the light for all people.   Notes: John 1: 6 to 9 Here we aretold that John the Baptist was sent into this world in advance.  He himself was not the light. But John was sent as a witness to testify that light, so that all might believe through him in what was to come. This true light, which enlightens everyone , was coming into this world after him. The rest is easy to follow once we understand the most important verse number 14. Notes: John 1:14 And the “Logos” (the spoken word, Command, wherein was life and light) became flesh (by entering the womb of Virgin Mary). No Bible reader can deny the fact that whenever God wanted to create anything (e.g. Light, Vegetation, Living Creatures, etc.,) He had been using His Commands to do just that. In this instance, He chose to make His Righteous Messiah through this unique “one of a kind” (John 3:16) Command.  Briefly, it was the Command of God that became flesh (the body of Jesus within Mary). This also explains the Virgin Birth through Mary.   To say that God Himself became flesh (Jesus, upon this earth) is not only a grave blasphemy but has been explicitly and repeatedly negated by Jesus himself, as shown from the beginning of this article. The only other alternative would be to say; the God Incarnate came to this earth and the God made an utterly false statement, concerning the CRUCIAL issue of having “the eternal life”, in John 17:3.  The choice is yours, which to adopt and what to reject. Study Supportive Passage: If John wanted to write “Jesus”, why would he write “Logos” instead? There is no record of Jesus being ever addressed as “Logos” by any one in the New Testament. “…if any one proclaims  to you a Gospel contrary to what you have received, let that one be accursed.” Galatians 1:9.   May God bless you Adam To All…..read this again, and let the false teaching of Trinitarians and Preexistences go, and maybe God will let this blindness of them leave you.. love and peace to All……………gene

Gene and Adam,

Interesting below you have just shown us that the “word” in John 1:1 was the command “let there be light” and who does it say that the true light is??  Answer: the one who became flesh and dwelt among us.

Quote

The literal translation reads:      In the beginning was the 'spoken word, command',        and the 'spoken word, command' was with God,        and the 'spoken word, command' was Divine.  (John 1:1)   The opening of John's G ospel coincides perfectly with the prologue of the Book of Genesis which reads; “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. And the God said, Let there be light; and there was light.”

John 1:1
In the beginning was the word
In the beginning was the command “Let there be light”

The word was with God
The same, (the light), was with God

The word was God.
The light was God, the begotten God, in the nature of God.

My son is a  man, a begotten man, in the nature of man.  See how that works?

Thanks for pointing that out Adam and Gene.
LU

[NickHassan]

Hi lU,
Of course the DWELLING amongst us may refer only from the time of his anointing.
He was barely noticed before then among men.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
Along with that thought

1Jn1
1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

John the baptist may have seen and touched his cousin before his anointing but the WE suggests it includes all who met him afterwards so it may not relate to just Flesh but Spirit?

[Lightenup]

Hi Nick,

Quote

Posted: Sep. 29 2008,08:25 Hi lU, Of course the DWELLING amongst us may refer only from the time of his anointing. He was barely noticed before then among men.

Hi Nick,

You are forgetting these events:
Before conception:
Angel appears to Mary telling her that she will conceive, by the Holy Spirit, the Son of God.
An angel appears to Joseph telling him about the child that was conceived by the Holy Spirit.
Elizabeth tells Mary that she is the mother of “my Lord.”

After the birth:
Angels appear in the sky
Luke 2:8-20

8 In the same region there were some shepherds staying out in the fields and keeping watch over their flock by night. 9 And an angel of the Lord suddenly stood before them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them; and they were terribly frightened. 10 But the angel said to them, ” Do not be afraid; for behold, I bring you good news of great joy which will be for all the people; 11 for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. 12 ” This will be a sign for you: you will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger.” 13 And suddenly there appeared with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying,

14 ” Glory to God in the highest,
And on earth peace among men with whom He is pleased.”

15 When the angels had gone away from them into heaven, the shepherds began saying to one another, “Let us go straight to Bethlehem then, and see this thing that has happened which the Lord has made known to us.” 16 So they came in a hurry and found their way to Mary and Joseph, and the baby as He lay in the manger. 17 When they had seen this, they made known the statement which had been told them about this Child. 18 And all who heard it wondered at the things which were told them by the shepherds. 19 But Mary treasured all these things, pondering them in her heart. 20 The shepherds went back, glorifying and praising God for all that they had heard and seen, just as had been told them.
NASU

When only eight days old a fuss is made over Him by Simeon:
Luke 2:25-38

25 And there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon; and this man was righteous and devout, looking for the consolation of Israel; and the Holy Spirit was upon him. 26 And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord's Christ. 27 And he came in the Spirit into the temple; and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to carry out for Him the custom of the Law, 28 then he took Him into his arms, and blessed God, and said,

29 “Now Lord, You are releasing Your bond-servant to depart in peace,
According to Your word;
30 For my eyes have seen Your salvation,
31 Which You have prepared in the presence of all peoples,
32 A LIGHT OF REVELATION TO THE GENTILES,
And the glory of Your people Israel.”

33 And His father and mother were amazed at the things which were being said about Him. 34 And Simeon blessed them and said to Mary His mother, “Behold, this Child is appointed for the fall and rise of many in Israel, and for a sign to be opposed– 35 and a sword will pierce even your own soul–to the end that thoughts from many hearts may be revealed.”

36 And there was a prophetess, Anna the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was advanced in years and had lived with her husband seven years after her marriage, 37 and then as a widow to the age of eighty-four. She never left the temple, serving night and day with fastings and prayers. 38 At that very moment she came up and began giving thanks to God, and continued to speak of Him to all those who were looking for the redemption of Jerusalem.
NASU

Magi come from the east to worship Him:

Matt 2:1-13

Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, magi from the east arrived in Jerusalem, saying, 2 “Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we saw His star in the east and have come to worship Him.” 3 When Herod the king heard this, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him. 4 Gathering together all the chief priests and scribes of the people, he inquired of them where the Messiah was to be born. 5 They said to him, ” In Bethlehem of Judea; for this is what has been written by the prophet:
6'AND YOU, BETHLEHEM, LAND OF JUDAH, ARE BY NO MEANS LEAST AMONG THE LEADERS OF JUDAH; FOR OUT OF YOU SHALL COME FORTH A RULER WHO WILL SHEPHERD MY PEOPLE ISRAEL.'”
7 Then Herod secretly called the magi and determined from them the exact time the star appeared. 8 And he sent them to Bethlehem and said, “Go and search carefully for the Child; and when you have found Him, report to me, so that I too may come and worship Him.” 9 After hearing the king, they went their way; and the star, which they had seen in the east, went on before them until it came and stood over the place where the Child was. 10 When they saw the star, they rejoiced exceedingly with great joy. 11 After coming into the house they saw the Child with Mary His mother; and they fell to the ground and worshiped Him. Then, opening their treasures, they presented to Him gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh. 12 And having been warned by God in a dream not to return to Herod, the magi left for their own country by another way.

Herod is threatened by this child so much that he murders young children in hopes of murdering Jesus:
13 The Flight to Egypt

Now when they had gone, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, “Get up! Take the Child and His mother and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you; for Herod is going to search for the Child to destroy Him.”
NASU

Age twelve:
Luke 2:47
47 And all who heard Him were amazed at His understanding and His answers.
NASU

So, He was noticed even before birth and as a young child in amazing ways. He was definitly dwelling with man from birth. The angels said “for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.” He was Christ the Lord on the day He was born.

LU

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
Do you think Jesus was another spirit being working in his own powers?
Do you think Jesus was born an anointed man?
What of the Jordan?

Acts 10
38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

[Lightenup]

Hi Nick,
All powers He had were given Him by the Father from His beginning even as a heavenly being.
He was born in the flesh as a man that was Christ the Lord even on day one as a baby.
His anointed ministry as a man began at Jordan.

LU

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
So Jesus should not have ascribed all power to God as he did?He did not need to be anointed by the Holy Spirit??

[Lightenup]

Nick,
When I say that the Son of God received all of His powers from His Father, why do you ask “So Jesus should not have ascribed all power to God as he did?”

Man can be filled with the Holy Spirit and much later receive their anointing of the Holy Spirit to begin their ministry.

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
But you see m to think that he was anointed before he came.
How can we possibly follow him?

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
His anointing by the Spirit of God was witnessed at the Jordan and enabled him to begin his works of power.
he was not a superman we cannot follow

[Lightenup]

Nick,
The more He witnessed the power of His Father in creation and everything else would only make Him a better leader for us to follow. He leads us to the Father and explains the Father. He witnessed the Father's powers firsthand at His Father's side. When He became limited within a man's body He felt temptation like us, yet overcame it. That gives us hope that we also can follow Him in overcoming temptation.

[Author]

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