JOHN 1:1 who is the WORD?

Participant

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 31 2013,01:31)

Hi:

“firstborn” of all creation means that was the first man to be born of God, he is “the last Adam”, and he is the first man to be “born again from the dead”.

Quote

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Ro 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
Ro 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Ro 8:30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
Ro 8:31 What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us?
Ro 8:32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things?

ARE ALL THOSE SCRIPTURES IN THEIR CONTEXT REALLY SAY WHAT YOU ARE TAKE FOR DEDUCTION

Quote

“firstborn” of all creation means that was the first man to be born of God, he is “the last Adam”, and he is the first man to be “born again from the dead”.

SO IS THIS WHAT PAUL SAYS

August 30, 2013 at 9:34 pm#356524

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 31 2013,07:01)

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 31 2013,01:31)

Hi:

“firstborn” of all creation means that was the first man to be born of God, he is “the last Adam”, and he is the first man to be “born again from the dead”.

Quote

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Love in Christ,
Marty

ARE ALL THOSE SCRIPTURES IN THEIR CONTEXT REALLY SAY WHAT YOU ARE TAKE FOR DEDUCTION

Quote

“firstborn” of all creation means that was the first man to be born of God, he is “the last Adam”, and he is the first man to be “born again from the dead”.

SO IS THIS WHAT PAUL SAYS

Yes, Pierre, the scripture means what I have stated. Scripture must be line upon line and precept upon precept, do you know any man who was born of God before Jesus? And does the scripture state that Jesus is the “last Adam”, and does the scripture state that Jesus is “the express image of God's person”? And are we who are Christians now also born of God, and are we being conformed to image of Jesus.

I can give you the scriptures if this doesn't satisfy you.

Love in Christ
Marty

August 30, 2013 at 10:22 pm#356525

Participant

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 31 2013,03:34)

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 31 2013,07:01)

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 31 2013,01:31)

Hi:

“firstborn” of all creation means that was the first man to be born of God, he is “the last Adam”, and he is the first man to be “born again from the dead”.

Quote

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Love in Christ,
Marty

ARE ALL THOSE SCRIPTURES IN THEIR CONTEXT REALLY SAY WHAT YOU ARE TAKE FOR DEDUCTION

Quote

“firstborn” of all creation means that was the first man to be born of God, he is “the last Adam”, and he is the first man to be “born again from the dead”.

SO IS THIS WHAT PAUL SAYS

I can give you the scriptures if this doesn't satisfy you.

Love in Christ
Marty

God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

this scripture is addressed to the ones that are called to join Christ ;Christ his not called he was send big difference ,

Christ being the last Adam as nothing to do with the above scriptures ,it is only related the be the savior rather than like Adam was a killer ,

-what can make us to be conformed to the image of Christ
answer this and see

August 30, 2013 at 11:49 pm#356528

Participant

Hi Pierre:

And so, what did the Apostle Paul mean by the following scripture, when he states: “that he might the firstborn among many brethren?

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

You tell me how we are conformed to his image since you seem to have all of the answers.

The point that was being addressed was what was meant by the statement stating that Jesus was “the firstborn of creation”. He is the first man to be born of God? Do you have any argument with that statement?

Love in Christ,
Marty

August 31, 2013 at 12:43 am#356530

Participant

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 31 2013,05:49)

Hi Pierre:

And so, what did the Apostle Paul mean by the following scripture, when he states: “that he might the firstborn among many brethren?

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

You tell me how we are conformed to his image since you seem to have all of the answers.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Marty

Quote

The point that was being addressed was what was meant by the statement stating that Jesus was “the firstborn of creation”. He is the first man to be born of God? Do you have any argument with that statement?

so Adam is not first ,but it is the second Adam that is first ,is this what you are telling me

because as i remember both are called son of God ,

but they do not have the same birth,

Ro 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,
Ro 8:2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.
Ro 8:3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man,
Ro 8:4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.
Ro 8:5 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires.
Ro 8:6 The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace;
Ro 8:7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.
Ro 8:8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
Ro 8:9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.
Ro 8:10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.
Ro 8:11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
Ro 8:12 Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it.
Ro 8:13 For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,
Ro 8:14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
Ro 8:15 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba,Father.”
Ro 8:16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.
Ro 8:17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

Jn 1:12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—
Jn 1:13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
Jn 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

1SA 2:25 “If one man sins against another, God will mediate for him; but if a man sins against the LORD, who can intercede for him?” But they would not listen to the voice of their father, for the LORD desired to put them to death.
ISA 59:16 And He saw that there was no man,
And was astonished that there was no one to intercede;
Then His own arm brought salvation to Him,
And His righteousness upheld Him.

Christ came down from the father to intercede for man and for some to be with him in his glory,

August 31, 2013 at 2:39 am#356536

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 31 2013,11:43)

942767,Aug. wrote:

Hi Pierre:

And so, what did the Apostle Paul mean by the following scripture, when he states: “that he might the firstborn among many brethren?

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Quote

You tell me how we are conformed to his image since you seem to have all of the answers.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Marty

Quote

so Adam is not first ,but it is the second Adam that is first ,is this what you are telling me

because as i remember both are called son of God ,

but they do not have the same birth,

Christ came down from the father to intercede for man and for some to be with him in his glory,

The first man Adam was created, He was not born.

Love in Christ,
Marty

August 31, 2013 at 2:48 am#356537

Participant

Also, I thought that posting Romans 8: and Colossians 1: together will help for you to see what is being said:

Quote

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren

Quote

Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Love in Christ,
Marty

August 31, 2013 at 4:14 am#356541

Participant

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 31 2013,08:48)

Also, I thought that posting Romans 8: and Colossians 1: together will help for you to see what is being said:

Quote

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren

Quote

Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Love in Christ,
Marty

just tell me who is taking part of what

is it Christ that take part of those that will become his brothers or is it the brothers that is taking part of Christ heavenly glory

August 31, 2013 at 11:04 am#356550

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 31 2013,00:39)

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 30 2013,23:56)

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 30 2013,22:01)

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 30 2013,11:59)

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 30 2013,08:23)

kerwin,Aug. wrote:

Kerwin

so sins when is now scriptures says that Christ is the first born of the dead ,and you make it that this is changing :first born of creation ” how is that

do you really understand what it means ? being made according to the :”image of the invisible God”

First born does not mean first born unless you believe that creation literally gave birth to the Son. It is poetic and simply means the first of all that is created. The question is first what? First one created? First one in rank of the created? It is a vague statement but we know Jesus is first in rank of all the created.

Image does not mean image unless you choose to believe that Jehovah is a Jew, the descendant of David, as of the flesh. In that case humanity in general are in the image of the invisible God.

Since Jesus is not the outer image of the invisible God then he is the inner image. His soul is not the image of God's for if it was he would be God. That leaves his Spirit and we know he is like God in true righteousness and holiness.

KERWIN

so you really did not understand that scripture at all ,because you have only given me your expressions of ignorance of it,

but my question is why can you not see it

I can tell you why you don't see it by using certain words from scripture but that is not the topic of this conversation. We are instead discussing whether or not Colossians 1 is written in a poetic form. You seemed to ask what I perceived the words meant and I told you and why I perceived that. That is where this particular conversation appears to presently rest.

kerwin

so you just hide yourself from that truth ,are you suffering of claustrophobia

poetic language means what poetry that it rhymes with other words in the sentence

is it the same as hidden wisdom

testing the scriptures means to SEE IF IT IS FROM GOD OR NOT ,this is something that can not be remove from any topic in this forum,

so answer the question

Your question is both an accusation and off topic. According to my knowledge I see what is true and you do no, even though I am still learning. Now we are off the topic you had no answer to.

August 31, 2013 at 12:54 pm#356551

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 31 2013,17:04)

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 31 2013,00:39)

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 30 2013,23:56)

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 30 2013,22:01)

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 30 2013,11:59)

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 30 2013,08:23)

kerwin,Aug. wrote:

Kerwin

so sins when is now scriptures says that Christ is the first born of the dead ,and you make it that this is changing :first born of creation ” how is that

do you really understand what it means ? being made according to the :”image of the invisible God”

Image does not mean image unless you choose to believe that Jehovah is a Jew, the descendant of David, as of the flesh. In that case humanity in general are in the image of the invisible God.

KERWIN

so you really did not understand that scripture at all ,because you have only given me your expressions of ignorance of it,

but my question is why can you not see it

kerwin

so you just hide yourself from that truth ,are you suffering of claustrophobia

poetic language means what poetry that it rhymes with other words in the sentence

is it the same as hidden wisdom

testing the scriptures means to SEE IF IT IS FROM GOD OR NOT ,this is something that can not be remove from any topic in this forum,

so answer the question

Your question is both an accusation and off topic. According to my knowledge I see what is true and you do no, even though I am still learning. Now we are off the topic you had no answer to.

Kerwin

Ro 16:17 I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them.
Ro 16:18 For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people.
Ro 16:19 Everyone has heard about your obedience, so I am full of joy over you; but I want you to be wise about what is good, and innocent about what is evil.

the following up can not be done by you,if your works are not in Christ or of God,

Ro 16:20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.
The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.

2Ti 4:2 Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
2Ti 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.
2Ti 4:5 But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.
2Ti 4:6 For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time has come for my departure.
2Ti 4:7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
2Ti 4:8 Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.

and those words ;

2Ti 3:10 You, however, know all about my teaching, my way of life, my purpose, faith, patience, love, endurance,
2Ti 3:11 persecutions, sufferings—what kinds of things happened to me in Antioch, Iconium and Lystra, the persecutions I endured. Yet the Lord rescued me from all of them.
2Ti 3:12 In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted,
2Ti 3:13 while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.
2Ti 3:14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it,

you may pretend to be a student but when you talk you do not talk like one but like a teacher with strong convictions ,
and not much lea way to give ,quickly find a way out to cover a smooth exit ,

so this is the end of our conv
ersation with scriptures on this topic

August 31, 2013 at 3:23 pm#356556

Blocked

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 29 2013,15:29)

Mike,

I think his word is a device God used to create all that is created.

Jehovah states the world was set in order by his device.

…..it is equivalent to a man stating “this house was built by my hammer”.

So since the “hammer that built the house” is something OTHER THAN the man who swung the hammer, are you saying that the “word that framed the worlds” is something OTHER THAN the God who used that “device”?

Please explain.

August 31, 2013 at 3:27 pm#356557

Blocked

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 29 2013,15:29)

I do remember and I still say that in certain cases they mean the same thing.

In ALL cases, Kerwin.

It is no different than me using “feline” or “cat”. Both words refer to the same dang thing.

But it's good to know that at least YOU understood that I was right when all those knuckleheads were insisting that “rhema” was just a regular word, and “logos” had more of a magical, or mystical meaning.

They both just mean “word” – period.

August 31, 2013 at 3:42 pm#356558

Blocked

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 28 2013,21:22)

Maybe God the Father and Jesus, and the apostle Paul Just didn't know thar you people can see other Gods they can't see or for that matter never saw before. Well you can correct them when you meet then.

Perhaps Gene simply doesn't believe God the Father: For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD. (Exodus 12:12)

Perhaps Gene simply doesn't believe Jesus Christ: Is it not written in your law, “I said, 'Ye are gods' “? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken………… (John 10:34-35)

Perhaps Gene simply doesn't believe the Apostle Paul: For though there be those who are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)……. (1 Corinthians 8:5)

Perhaps it is Gene who will “correct them” when he meets them.

August 31, 2013 at 3:50 pm#356559

Blocked

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 28 2013,21:22)

……maybe like you like Mike believe Those words Like Gods own Words saying he look for other Gods and found none is not meant to be taken emphatically.

Perhaps Gene will also explain to us how Jehovah could say He was LITERALLY the ONLY savior, when we know He sent many other saviors – including our Lord Jesus Christ.

Or how Jehovah could LITERALLY be the ONLY good person in existence, when scripture speaks of many others who were also good – including our Lord Jesus Christ.

Or maybe Gene will someday understand how an emphatic statement works.

Tick tock, tick tock……………

August 31, 2013 at 4:45 pm#356561

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 31 2013,15:14)

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 31 2013,08:48)

Also, I thought that posting Romans 8: and Colossians 1: together will help for you to see what is being said:

Quote

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren

Quote

Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Love in Christ,
Marty

just tell me who is taking part of what

is it Christ that take part of those that will become his brothers or is it the brothers that is taking part of Christ heavenly glory

He, Christ, is the firstborn of God and the firstborn again from the dead, and now, we as Christians can have our sins forgiven and be born again from the dead, and we can be conformed to the image of Christ through his word and by his blood.

Love in Christ,
Marty

August 31, 2013 at 6:25 pm#356568

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 31 2013,21:23)

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 29 2013,15:29)

Mike,

I think his word is a device God used to create all that is created.

Jehovah states the world was set in order by his device.

…..it is equivalent to a man stating “this house was built by my hammer”.

Please explain.

Mike,

I am not quite sure how to answer that question yet. God's word is related to God as a man's word is related to that man. So non-poetically I think it would be no.

Poetically you are sometimes what you live. At this time we are not speaking in poetic terms so I would say no.

August 31, 2013 at 6:36 pm#356572

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 31 2013,21:27)

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 29 2013,15:29)

I do remember and I still say that in certain cases they mean the same thing.

In ALL cases, Kerwin.

It is no different than me using “feline” or “cat”. Both words refer to the same dang thing.

They both just mean “word” – period.

Mike,

They are both Koine Greek and have a number of different meanings of which only some are synonymous. Command and Word are a parallel English example. Even though they are of a different language I find it best to treat each of them as a word in the same language that is at times synonymous with word, command, or whatever else is implied, or preferably inferred by the content.

I don't know about rhema but logos was given special meaning by philosophers at a time when theologians and philosophers were regarded as being of the same basic profession.

August 31, 2013 at 6:40 pm#356574

Participant

Quote

so this is the end of our conversation with scriptures on this topic

That was my impression when you were reduced to insinuations. Thank you for your time.

August 31, 2013 at 6:47 pm#356576

Participant

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 31 2013,01:31)

Hi:

“firstborn” of all creation means that was the first man to be born of God, he is “the last Adam”, and he is the first man to be “born again from the dead”.

Quote

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Marty,

I can see grounds for that hypothesis as firstborn of many brothers and firstborn from of the dead seem to be be paraphrases of one another. Being so it seems reasonable that firstborn of creation has a similar meaning.

August 31, 2013 at 6:57 pm#356580