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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 26 2008,11:15) Hi, In the body of Christ those who do not unite in his truth, divide and scatter.
Matthew 12:30
He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
Luke 11:23
He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.The scattering is by the wolves among the flock.
John 10:12
But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
NHAnd so how do we know you are not the wolf?
Anybody can claim wolf, wolf. The question is what makes you think you are in the truth and those who dont agree with you are not?
Jesus said those who are not with us are against us. So are yoiu with us?
See what I mean?
WJ
WJ, the point is that they often spend most of their resources on staying afloat.
I have a responsibility to my family to keep my family afloat.
But the Church's responsibility is to shine the light and to help those in need. It is not about creating organisations that suck up resources and people's time in order to serve the organisation itself. Jesus will keep his church afloat.
If you look within the structure, you can see the body of Christ. That is what is important.
But people often confuse the two.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 26 2008,11:22) Jesus said those who are not with us are against us. So are yoiu with us?
Who is “us” WJ?Paul says that “us” believe the following:
1 Corinthians 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.So are you “us”? I can assure you that I believe the above and so do many others here.
What about you? Are you with “us” or against “us”?
Hi WJ,
Does teaching about a trinity God, something foreign to the mouth of Jesus, unite the Body of Christ in him, or does it divide from him?Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 23 2008,03:08) 10 And, “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
11 THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,
12 AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;
LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED.
BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,
AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.”
NASULU
Lightenup, FYILike gollamudi, rightly said
Quote Jesus was no where present at that time as per Heb 1:1;
1 In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
2
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son,…Son was not at all functioning in the past that is in O.T.
Therefore, all scripture needs to be read in that light.
Jesus didn't do anything in the OT, because he didn't exist!! He wasn't even conceived/begotten yet!Therefore, concerning Heb 1.10 …
Quote (Adam Pastor @ Mar. 25 2007,15:52) Greetings ALL Concerning Psalms 102 & Heb 1.10
The short answer is that the writer of Hebrews' quote of Psalms 102:25 is taken from the LXX (Septuagint).The LXX text reads different from the Hebrew text (MT).
Hence, the LXX rendering has a different sense entirely from the Masoretic rendering of Psalms 102:23-25; however both are speaking of the new heavens & earth to come i.e. the restoration of Zion, etc (cp. Acts 1.6, 3.21)The writer of Hebrews is using the context of the LXX's rendering of Psalms 102:23ff!
In the LXX rendering of Psa. 102:23ff, the quote of v. 25 (as quoted in Heb 1.10) is taken from GOD's answer to the suppliant (the Lord Messiah); and the context is about the new heavens & earth to come! i.e. the Coming Kingdom of GOD here on earth.
In the LXX rendering, GOD is addressing the Messianic Lord in connection with the rest of Psalm 102 which speak of “the generation to come” and the set time for YAHWEH to build up Zion and appear in His glory. This is a vision of the coming Kingdom!Quote (F.F. Bruce @ New International Commentary on Hebrews) In the LXX, Septuagint text, the person to whom these words (‘of old you laid the foundation of the earth’) are spoken is addressed explicitly as ‘lord.’ God bids him acknowledge the shortness of God’s set time for the restoration of Jerusalem (v. 13) and not summon Him [God] to act when that set time has only half expired, while He [God] assures him [the suppliant] that he and his servants’ children will be preserved forever. The risen, glorified Jesus is now indeed the agent of the new creation to come!
Remember, the writer of Hebrews does explain his context:
(Heb 2:5) For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.It is the world to come, the inhabited earth to come, the new heavens & earth to come, the Kingdom to come,
of which he speaks. Not the Genesis creation.For more info see http://www.focusonthekingdom.org/92.htm#1
…
Hope this helps to edify!Quote (t8 @ Sep. 26 2008,11:27) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 26 2008,11:22) Jesus said those who are not with us are against us. So are yoiu with us?
Who is “us” WJ?Paul says that “us” believe the following:
1 Corinthians 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.So are you “us”? I can assure you that I believe the above and so do many others here.
What about you? Are you with “us” or against “us”?
Hi t8Do you think Paul contradicted himself?
From Simeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who through the righteousness of “our God and Savior, Jesus Christ“, have been granted a faith just as precious as ours. 2 Peter 1:1 NET
as we wait for the happy fulfillment of our hope in the glorious appearing of “our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ“. Titus 2:13
And Thomas answered and said unto him, “My Lord and my God“. John 20:28
Funny thing. I have never heard you say Yeshua is your God!
Here is three witnesses!
So are you with us or against us?
I can assure you I believe in the above as well as many others!
WJ
Quote (Adam Pastor @ Sep. 26 2008,12:10) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 23 2008,03:08) 10 And, “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
11 THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,
12 AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;
LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED.
BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,
AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.”
NASULU
Lightenup, FYILike gollamudi, rightly said
Quote Jesus was no where present at that time as per Heb 1:1;
1 In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
2
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son,…Son was not at all functioning in the past that is in O.T.
Therefore, all scripture needs to be read in that light.
Jesus didn't do anything in the OT, because he didn't exist!! He wasn't even conceived/begotten yet!Therefore, concerning Heb 1.10 …
Quote (Adam Pastor @ Mar. 25 2007,15:52) Greetings ALL Concerning Psalms 102 & Heb 1.10
The short answer is that the writer of Hebrews' quote of Psalms 102:25 is taken from the LXX (Septuagint).The LXX text reads different from the Hebrew text (MT).
Hence, the LXX rendering has a different sense entirely from the Masoretic rendering of Psalms 102:23-25; however both are speaking of the new heavens & earth to come i.e. the restoration of Zion, etc (cp. Acts 1.6, 3.21)The writer of Hebrews is using the context of the LXX's rendering of Psalms 102:23ff!
In the LXX rendering of Psa. 102:23ff, the quote of v. 25 (as quoted in Heb 1.10) is taken from GOD's answer to the suppliant (the Lord Messiah); and the context is about the new heavens & earth to come! i.e. the Coming Kingdom of GOD here on earth.
In the LXX rendering, GOD is addressing the Messianic Lord in connection with the rest of Psalm 102 which speak of “the generation to come” and the set time for YAHWEH to build up Zion and appear in His glory. This is a vision of the coming Kingdom!Quote (F.F. Bruce @ New International Commentary on Hebrews) In the LXX, Septuagint text, the person to whom these words (‘of old you laid the foundation of the earth’) are spoken is addressed explicitly as ‘lord.’ God bids him acknowledge the shortness of God’s set time for the restoration of Jerusalem (v. 13) and not summon Him [God] to act when that set time has only half expired, while He [God] assures him [the suppliant] that he and his servants’ children will be preserved forever. The risen, glorified Jesus is now indeed the agent of the new creation to come!
Remember, the writer of Hebrews does explain his context:
(Heb 2:5) For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.It is the world to come, the inhabited earth to come, the new heavens & earth to come, the Kingdom to come,
of which he speaks. Not the Genesis creation.For more info see http://www.focusonthekingdom.org/92.htm#1
…
Hope this helps to edify!
Hi APQuote (Adam Pastor @ Sep. 26 2008,12:10) It is the world to come, the inhabited earth to come, the new heavens & earth to come, the Kingdom to come,
of which he speaks. Not the Genesis creation.“YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
11 “THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,
12 AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;
LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED“.
BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,
AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.” Heb 1:10-12Context is right AP and the context shows that it is the Genesis account. Will the New Creation Perish and be rolled up like a garment? Will the New creation change?
WJ
Hi Adam.
Because it is not taught that Jesus didn't pre-exist, the onus is on you to prove that these scriptures are not saying or referring to him pre-existing.
For those who believe that Jesus pre-existed, they do not have to change any of the below verses, nor do they have to immerse the reader in some philosophy first. We can read them as they are and in agreement.
I believe that you cannot.
Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.Philippians 2:5-11
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross!John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.Colossians 1:15-16
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.Proverbs 30:4
Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!John 3:12-15
12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven, the Son of Man.So far all the explanations that are used to convince people that the verses are not saying what they are saying, seem very lame to me.
I think that Unitarians (Jesus was created a man first) haven't produced the smoking gun to say that the above verses don't mean what they say.
Where is the smoking gun Adam? I think that is a fair enough question because to say that the scriptures are not really saying what they are saying needs pretty strong evidence and proof. Otherwise if we just accept that they are not saying what they are saying, then we could also say that Jesus never existed at all as that is keeping with the idea that they are not saying what they are saying.
Please understand this.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 26 2008,12:36) Quote (t8 @ Sep. 26 2008,11:27) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 26 2008,11:22) Jesus said those who are not with us are against us. So are yoiu with us?
Who is “us” WJ?Paul says that “us” believe the following:
1 Corinthians 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.So are you “us”? I can assure you that I believe the above and so do many others here.
What about you? Are you with “us” or against “us”?
Hi t8Do you think Paul contradicted himself?
From Simeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who through the righteousness of “our God and Savior, Jesus Christ“, have been granted a faith just as precious as ours. 2 Peter 1:1 NET
as we wait for the happy fulfillment of our hope in the glorious appearing of “our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ“. Titus 2:13
And Thomas answered and said unto him, “My Lord and my God“. John 20:28
Funny thing. I have never heard you say Yeshua is your God!
So are you with us or against us?
I can assure you I believe in the above as well as many others!
WJ
In other words you are not with “us” who believe that there is one God the Father. This is what your reply really means.As far as Jesus being my God. I have taught all along the ways we can use “theos” legitimately, and Jesus is no exception to that word being applied to him. If judges and angels can be referred to with that term, then how much more the son?
But you have to contend with 2 things. First Jesus is not the Most High God and these verses can also easily be interpreted as My Lord and God. i.e., the son and the Father because it depends where the English comma goes in the interpretation. Even if they are referring to Jesus then yes no problem he is “theos” i.e., under Gods authority, but not the Most High Theos WJ.
So what does Jesus say on this subject?
John 20:17
Jesus said, Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them,
`I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.So I think that wraps it up don't you think? After all, we are not the authority, Jesus is.
Also are you with “us” or against “us”?
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
The above was written by Paul. Did he contradict himself WJ?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 26 2008,01:46) Quote (Adam Pastor @ Sep. 26 2008,12:10) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 23 2008,03:08) 10 And, “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
11 THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,
12 AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;
LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED.
BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,
AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.”
NASULU
Lightenup, FYILike gollamudi, rightly said
Quote Jesus was no where present at that time as per Heb 1:1;
1 In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
2
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son,…Son was not at all functioning in the past that is in O.T.
Therefore, all scripture needs to be read in that light.
Jesus didn't do anything in the OT, because he didn't exist!! He wasn't even conceived/begotten yet!Therefore, concerning Heb 1.10 …
Quote (Adam Pastor @ Mar. 25 2007,15:52) Greetings ALL Concerning Psalms 102 & Heb 1.10
The short answer is that the writer of Hebrews' quote of Psalms 102:25 is taken from the LXX (Septuagint).The LXX text reads different from the Hebrew text (MT).
Hence, the LXX rendering has a different sense entirely from the Masoretic rendering of Psalms 102:23-25; however both are speaking of the new heavens & earth to come i.e. the restoration of Zion, etc (cp. Acts 1.6, 3.21)The writer of Hebrews is using the context of the LXX's rendering of Psalms 102:23ff!
In the LXX rendering of Psa. 102:23ff, the quote of v. 25 (as quoted in Heb 1.10) is taken from GOD's answer to the suppliant (the Lord Messiah); and the context is about the new heavens & earth to come! i.e. the Coming Kingdom of GOD here on earth.
In the LXX rendering, GOD is addressing the Messianic Lord in connection with the rest of Psalm 102 which speak of “the generation to come” and the set time for YAHWEH to build up Zion and appear in His glory. This is a vision of the coming Kingdom!Quote (F.F. Bruce @ New International Commentary on Hebrews) In the LXX, Septuagint text, the person to whom these words (‘of old you laid the foundation of the earth’) are spoken is addressed explicitly as ‘lord.’ God bids him acknowledge the shortness of God’s set time for the restoration of Jerusalem (v. 13) and not summon Him [God] to act when that set time has only half expired, while He [God] assures him [the suppliant] that he and his servants’ children will be preserved forever. The risen, glorified Jesus is now indeed the agent of the new creation to come!
Remember, the writer of Hebrews does explain his context:
(Heb 2:5) For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.It is the world to come, the inhabited earth to come, the new heavens & earth to come, the Kingdom to come,
of which he speaks. Not the Genesis creation.For more info see http://www.focusonthekingdom.org/92.htm#1
…
Hope this helps to edify!
Hi APQuote (Adam Pastor @ Sep. 26 2008,12:10) It is the world to come, the inhabited earth to come, the new heavens & earth to come, the Kingdom to come,
of which he speaks. Not the Genesis creation.“YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
11 “THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,
12 AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;
LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED“.
BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,
AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.” Heb 1:10-12Context is right AP and the context shows that it is the Genesis account. Will the New Creation Perish and be rolled up like a garment? Will the New creation change?
WJ
WJ, The heavens & the earth of the Millennial Kingdom i.e. that is, after the 1000 years, after the final judgement & the lake of fire; will be rolled up like a garment!(Rev 20:5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. …
(Rev 20:12-15) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.(Rev 21:1-5) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Notice, in the Millennium, there was the sea! As well as death!
However, after the new heavens/earth of Rev 21; no more sea, death, sorrow, crying or pain!
The former things will indeed pass away!
So again, Heb 1.10ff is concerning the heavens/earth of the millennium; yet that will pass away & give way to a further new he
avens & earth!Quote (t8 @ Sep. 26 2008,13:00) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 26 2008,12:36) Quote (t8 @ Sep. 26 2008,11:27) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 26 2008,11:22) Jesus said those who are not with us are against us. So are yoiu with us?
Who is “us” WJ?Paul says that “us” believe the following:
1 Corinthians 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.So are you “us”? I can assure you that I believe the above and so do many others here.
What about you? Are you with “us” or against “us”?
Hi t8Do you think Paul contradicted himself?
From Simeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who through the righteousness of “our God and Savior, Jesus Christ“, have been granted a faith just as precious as ours. 2 Peter 1:1 NET
as we wait for the happy fulfillment of our hope in the glorious appearing of “our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ“. Titus 2:13
And Thomas answered and said unto him, “My Lord and my God“. John 20:28
Funny thing. I have never heard you say Yeshua is your God!
So are you with us or against us?
I can assure you I believe in the above as well as many others!
WJ
In other words you are not with “us” who believe that there is one God the Father. This is what your reply really means.As far as Jesus being my God. I have taught all along the ways we can use “theos” legitimately, and Jesus is no exception to that word being applied to him. If judges and angels can be referred to with that term, then how much more the son?
But you have to contend with 2 things. First Jesus is not the Most High God and these verses can also easily be interpreted as My Lord and God. i.e., the son and the Father because it depends where the English comma goes in the interpretation. Even if they are referring to Jesus then yes no problem he is “theos” i.e., under Gods authority, but not the Most High Theos WJ.
So what does Jesus say on this subject?
John 20:17
Jesus said, Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them,
`I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.So I think that wraps it up don't you think? After all, we are not the authority, Jesus is.
Also are you with “us” or against “us”?
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
The above was written by Paul. Did he contradict himself WJ?
t8In other words Yeshua is not your Lord and God?
So you are not with us!
From Simeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who through the righteousness of “our God and Savior, Jesus Christ“, have been granted a faith just as precious as ours. 2 Peter 1:1 NET
as we wait for the happy fulfillment of our hope in the glorious appearing of “our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ“. Titus 2:13
And Thomas answered and said unto him, “My Lord and my God“. John 20:28
WJ
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 26 2008,13:00)
But you have to contend with 2 things. First Jesus is not the Most High God and these verses can also easily be interpreted as My Lord and God. i.e., the son and the Father because it depends where the English comma goes in the interpretation. Even if they are referring to Jesus then yes no problem he is “theos” i.e., under Gods authority, but not the Most High Theos WJ.True he is not the Father. But you disagree with Greek rules and 100s of scholars.
From Simeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ, have been granted a faith just as precious as ours. 2 Peter 1:1 NET
The terms “God and Savior” both refer to the same person, Jesus Christ. This is one of the clearest statements in the NT concerning the deity of Christ. The construction in Greek is known as the Granville Sharp rule, named after the English philanthropist-linguist who first clearly articulated the rule in 1798. Sharp pointed out that in the construction article-noun-καί-noun (where καί [kai] = “and”), when two nouns are singular, personal, and common (i.e., not proper names), they always had the same referent. Illustrations such as “the friend and brother,” “the God and Father,” etc. abound in the NT to prove Sharp’s point. In fact, the construction occurs elsewhere in 2 Peter, strongly suggesting that the author’s idiom was the same as the rest of the NT authors’ (cf., e.g., 1:11 [“the Lord and Savior”], 2:20 [“the Lord and Savior”]). The only issue is whether terms such as “God” and “Savior” could be considered common nouns as opposed to proper names. Sharp and others who followed (such as T. F. Middleton in his masterful The Doctrine of the Greek Article) demonstrated that a proper name in Greek was one that could not be pluralized. Since both “God” (θεός, qeos) and “savior” (σωτήρ, swthr) were occasionally found in the plural, they did not constitute proper names, and hence, do fit Sharp’s rule. Although there have been 200 years of attempts to dislodge Sharp’s rule, all attempts have been futile. Sharp’s rule stands vindicated after all the dust has settled. For more information on the application of Sharp’s rule to 2 Pet 1:1, see ExSyn 272, 276-77, 290. See also Titus 2:13 and Jude 4.
This rule is also found in the following scripture…
as we wait for the happy fulfillment of our hope in the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ. Titus 2:13Now since scripturally my confession is accurate. Then maybe you can explain to me how Yeshua’s nature is less than the Fathers. What attribute does the Father have that Yeshua doesn’t? In which way should I honour Yeshua less than the Father?
Why should I not call him my Lord and my God?
WJ
Quote (Adam Pastor @ Sep. 26 2008,13:02) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 26 2008,01:46) Quote (Adam Pastor @ Sep. 26 2008,12:10) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 23 2008,03:08) 10 And, “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
11 THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,
12 AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;
LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED.
BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,
AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.”
NASULU
Lightenup, FYILike gollamudi, rightly said
Quote Jesus was no where present at that time as per Heb 1:1;
1 In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
2
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son,…Son was not at all functioning in the past that is in O.T.
Therefore, all scripture needs to be read in that light.
Jesus didn't do anything in the OT, because he didn't exist!! He wasn't even conceived/begotten yet!Therefore, concerning Heb 1.10 …
Quote (Adam Pastor @ Mar. 25 2007,15:52) Greetings ALL Concerning Psalms 102 & Heb 1.10
The short answer is that the writer of Hebrews' quote of Psalms 102:25 is taken from the LXX (Septuagint).The LXX text reads different from the Hebrew text (MT).
Hence, the LXX rendering has a different sense entirely from the Masoretic rendering of Psalms 102:23-25; however both are speaking of the new heavens & earth to come i.e. the restoration of Zion, etc (cp. Acts 1.6, 3.21)The writer of Hebrews is using the context of the LXX's rendering of Psalms 102:23ff!
In the LXX rendering of Psa. 102:23ff, the quote of v. 25 (as quoted in Heb 1.10) is taken from GOD's answer to the suppliant (the Lord Messiah); and the context is about the new heavens & earth to come! i.e. the Coming Kingdom of GOD here on earth.
In the LXX rendering, GOD is addressing the Messianic Lord in connection with the rest of Psalm 102 which speak of “the generation to come” and the set time for YAHWEH to build up Zion and appear in His glory. This is a vision of the coming Kingdom!Quote (F.F. Bruce @ New International Commentary on Hebrews) In the LXX, Septuagint text, the person to whom these words (‘of old you laid the foundation of the earth’) are spoken is addressed explicitly as ‘lord.’ God bids him acknowledge the shortness of God’s set time for the restoration of Jerusalem (v. 13) and not summon Him [God] to act when that set time has only half expired, while He [God] assures him [the suppliant] that he and his servants’ children will be preserved forever. The risen, glorified Jesus is now indeed the agent of the new creation to come!
Remember, the writer of Hebrews does explain his context:
(Heb 2:5) For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.It is the world to come, the inhabited earth to come, the new heavens & earth to come, the Kingdom to come,
of which he speaks. Not the Genesis creation.For more info see http://www.focusonthekingdom.org/92.htm#1
…
Hope this helps to edify!
Hi APQuote (Adam Pastor @ Sep. 26 2008,12:10) It is the world to come, the inhabited earth to come, the new heavens & earth to come, the Kingdom to come,
of which he speaks. Not the Genesis creation.“YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
11 “THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,
12 AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;
LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED“.
BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,
AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.” Heb 1:10-12Context is right AP and the context shows that it is the Genesis account. Will the New Creation Perish and be rolled up like a garment? Will the New creation change?
WJ
WJ, The heavens & the earth of the Millennial Kingdom i.e. that is, after the 1000 years, after the final judgement & the lake of fire; will be rolled up like a garment!(Rev 20:5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. …
(Rev 20:12-15) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.(Rev 21:1-5) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Notice, in the Millennium, there was the sea! As well as death!
However, after the new heavens/earth of Rev 21; no more
sea, death, sorrow, crying or pain!
The former things will indeed pass away!
So again, Heb 1.10ff is concerning the heavens/earth of the millennium; yet that will pass away & give way to a further new heavens & earth!
APNice try! But there is no scripture that says the heavens and the earth of the millinium is the New Creation.
So you think he has a New Creation that like a garment shall perish? So now we have 3 creations instead of 2?
Don't think so.
WJ
Hi WJ,
The stars in the heavens will be seen to fall or to be rolled up like a scroll.
The earth will be a destroyed by fire.Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 20 2008,15:36) Hello Gollamudi, Yes, I understand that you can't see my perspective. Be that as it is. I would really like to know your thoughts after a good long look at these verses, pay particular attention to what the speaker says about Himself in v. 16:
Who would you say is the “I” in this passage:
Isa 48:12-16
12 “Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called;
I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.
13 “Surely My hand founded the earth,
And My right hand spread out the heavens;
When I call to them, they stand together.
14 ” Assemble, all of you, and listen!
Who among them has declared these things?
The LORD loves him; he will carry out His good pleasure on Babylon,
And His arm will be against the Chaldeans.
15 “I, even I, have spoken; indeed I have called him,
I have brought him, and He will make his ways successful.
16 ” Come near to Me, listen to this:
From the first I have not spoken in secret,
From the time it took place, I was there.
And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit.”
NASUYou can also see here in Hebrews that the Son laid the foundation of the earth and the heavens are the works of the Son's hands.
Heb 1:8-10
8 But of the Son He says…….
10 “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
NASUThe First and the Last is also spoken of here:
Rev 1:17-1917 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, ” Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.
NASUNotice that the one who says that “I am the first and the last” was dead at one point.
Jesus is the “first and the last”. In Is 48:12-13 it says that the “first and the last” spread out the heavens with His right hand and also that His hand founded the earth.
And just to show you that the “first and the last” here is not God the Father, we see in Is 48:16 that the Lord God has sent the first and the last with His spirit. Also, the first and the last was there from the first and He also spoke. Sounds like a living heavenly being and definetly not a plan. A plan cannot spread out the heavens with its right hand nor does a plan speak. It couldn't be a sperm in the loins of the Father either. The Son was alive and active in the creation process.
I hope you can understand this.
God bless,
LU
Hello Adam Pastor,
Thank you for your time given me. I believe that we are to let the New Testament shed light onto the Old Testament to help us understand it. I can see that Hebrews 1 relates to Psalm 102 and therefore I believe God is telling us that the Son laid the foundation with His hand in Psalm 102. I have no problem with the Son sharing the name Yahweh (LORD) with His Father. I do believe that this name was given Him though. Lots of men give their name to their son, it is not hard to accept that the Father gave His name Yahweh to His Son.Now regarding Hebrews 1:1
Heb 1:1-3
God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
NASUMaybe this will help you:
Heb 1:1-3
God's method of communicating his mind and will under the New-Testament dispensation, these last days as they are called, that is, either towards the end of the world, or the end of the Jewish state. The times of the gospel are the last times, the gospel revelation is the last we are to expect from God. There was first the natural revelation; then the patriarchal, by dreams, visions, and voices; then the Mosaic, in the law given forth and written down; then the prophetic, in explaining the law, and giving clearer discoveries of Christ: but now we must expect no new revelation, but only more of the Spirit of Christ to help us better to understand what is already revealed.
(from Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible: New Modern Edition, Electronic Database. Copyright  1991 by Hendrickson Publishers, Inc.)Thanks,
LUQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 26 2008,13:07) t8 In other words Yeshua is not your Lord and God?
So you are not with us!
Ha ha. Nice dodge.He is my lord and my theos. He is not my Most High Theos, that is the Father and I only concur with Jesus himself on that. Jesus is my authority and head, and because he represents God's authority, he can rightly be my theos in that sense.
What is your explanation?
“For us there is one God, the Father”.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 26 2008,13:24) True he is not the Father. But you disagree with Greek rules and 100s of scholars.
Not so. I disagree with those who have been tainted by the Trinity doctrine. That includes some scholars, the Pope, Catholics, and all kinds of others who profess faith in God.Of course I am not saying that all who believe in the Trinity are deceivers, but that they are deceived in that area. Therefore on that subject I disagree with them and so should anybody who is willing to be set free by the truth.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 26 2008,14:02) Hi WJ,
The stars in the heavens will be seen to fall or to be rolled up like a scroll.
The earth will be a destroyed by fire.
The same fire that destroys the wicked.2 Peter 3:7
By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.Hi t8
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 26 2008,13:07) t8 In other words Yeshua is not your Lord and God?
So you are not with us!
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 26 2008,16:41)
Ha ha. Nice dodge.
No dodging here. It seems you are the one dodging by playing word games with the Greek word “theos”.For example…
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 26 2008,16:41)
He is my lord and my theos. He is not my Most High Theos, that is the Father and I only concur with Jesus himself on that.But Yeshua also says…
If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. John 14:7
Why would he make such a claim?
You say Yeshua is your Lord and your God (theos) yet you say…
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 26 2008,16:41) “For us there is one God, the Father”.
So how many “gods” (theos) do you have? Now who is dodging?You want to translate the word “theos” into divine when it applies to Yeshua. Yet there is no such definition. And if the word “theos” was to be interpreted that way, then how is Yeshua qualitatively different than the Father?
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 26 2008,16:41)
Jesus is my authority and head, and because he represents God's authority, he can rightly be my theos in that sense.
Yes I can hear the Apostles saying “(in a sense) you are my Lord and my God”.as we wait for the happy fulfillment of our hope in the glorious appearing of “(who is in a sense) our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ“. Titus 2:13
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 26 2008,16:41)
What is your explanation?“For us there is one God, the Father”.
For us there is One God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and these three are “One Sprit”.For you there is one God the Father and one “god” the son. It’s called “Henotheism”.
Here is a question for you t8.
Can you show us one scripture in the NT that ascribes the word “theos” to any other being with “divine” attributes or qualities other than Yeshua?
WJ
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