JOHN 1:1 who is the WORD?

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Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 07 2013,22:33)

No, the utterance did not literally become flesh and blood……..

The Word was made flesh not made into flesh.

So although it says the Word not only was made flesh, but also dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son, you have decided that the Word WASN'T really made flesh?

And you have decided to find a distinction between the phrase “was made flesh” and the phrase “was made INTO flesh”?

Hmmm…………….. You are well on your way to writing your own Bible after all, Kerwin. jammin is going to be so proud of you.

Okay, so the Word wasn't REALLY made flesh like the scripture clearly says, huh? Then who exactly was the only begotten Son of God who dwelled among us on earth?

August 8, 2013 at 11:56 pm#353662

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Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 08 2013,11:19)

Mike,

Quote

Agreed. Jesus, ACCORDING ONLY TO THE FLESH, was an offspring of David. So according to WHAT was Jesus the ROOT of David?

And why make the distinction in the first place? If there wasn't anything to Jesus except for the “ACCORDING TO THE FLESH Jesus”, then why mention it?

Romans 4:1
King James Version (KJV)

4 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

According to the flesh Abraham is the father of the Jews.

Kerwin,

I have recently addressed that point for Jodi Lee in our private thread. He is that post:

Quote (Jodi Lee @ July 02 2013,22:33)

Romans 4:1 RSV
What then shall we say about Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh?

Does Barnes assume that Abraham pre-existed with Jesus?

Not at all, Jodi. We must consider what Paul is teaching us in that passage. He is saying, 2 If, for instance, Abraham were declared righteous as a result of works, he would have ground for boasting…………

3 But instead of trying to gain righteousness ACCORDING TO THE FLESH (by works), Abraham exercised faith in Jehovah, and it was counted to him as righteousness.

The NKJV has Romans 4:1 translated correctly: What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?

The question, “What did our forefather Abraham gain according to the flesh?”, is rhetorical, and assumes the answer of “NOTHING!” Abraham gained nothing by his own works according to the flesh, but everything by his unquestioned faith in Jehovah. As Paul explains in verse 3, it was not the works of flesh hands that gained Abraham righteousness, but his faith in God alone that was credited to him as righteousness.

In other words, there is nothing any of us can do according to our flesh that would be reckoned as righteousness by our God. But having faith in God can be credited to us as righteousness, as it was credited to Abraham as righteousness.

The majority of the commentators, including Barnes, understand that the “according to the flesh” part of the verse goes with “gained” – and not with the “our forefather” part. Here are some of their comments:

Barnes
This expression is one that has been much controverted. In the original, it may refer either to Abraham as their father “according to the flesh,” that is, their natural father, or from whom they were descended; or it may be connected with “hath found.”

“What shall we say that Abraham our father hath found in respect to the flesh?” κατὰ σάρκα kata sarka. The latter is doubtless the proper connection.

Gill
…..now the question put concerning him is, “what he, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?”

Vincent's Word Studies
As pertaining to the flesh (κατὰ σάρκα)

Construe with found. The question is, Was Abraham justified by anything which pertained to the flesh?

Geneva Study Bible
…….this is the proposition: if Abraham is considered in himself by his works, (according to the flesh) he has deserved nothing with which to rejoice with God.

Wesley's Notes
According to the flesh – That is, by works.

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
What shall we say then that Abraham, our father as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?-that is, (as the order in the original shows), “hath found, as pertaining to ('according to,' or 'through') the flesh”; meaning, “by all his natural efforts or legal obedience.”

Matthew Henry's Whole Bible Commentary
What has he found, kata sarka-as pertaining to the flesh, that is, by circumcision and his external privileges and performances? These the apostle calls flesh, Phil. 3:3. Now what did he get by these? Was he justified by them? Was it the merit of his works that recommended him to God's acceptance? No, by no means, which he proves by several arguments.

So you can see that the commentators seem to be in agreement that it is not saying, “our father according to the flesh”, but “what has our father gained according to the flesh”.

August 8, 2013 at 11:59 pm#353663

Participant

all

Mk 12:1 He then began to speak to them in parables: “A man planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a pit for the winepress and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and went away on a journey.
Mk 12:2 At harvest time he sent a servant to the tenants to collect from them some of the fruit of the vineyard.
Mk 12:3 But they seized him, beat him and sent him away empty-handed.
Mk 12:4 Then he sent another servant to them; they struck this man on the head and treated him shamefully.
Mk 12:5 He sent still another, and that one they killed. He sent many others; some of them they beat, others they killed.
Mk 12:6 “He had one left to send, a son, whom he loved. He sent him last of all, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’
Mk 12:7 “But the tenants said to one another, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.’
Mk 12:8 So they took him and killed him, and threw him out of the vineyard.
Mk 12:9 “What then will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others.
Mk 12:10 Haven’t you read this scripture:
“ ‘The stone the builders rejected
has become the capstone ;
Mk 12:11 the Lord has done this,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’

Mt 20:25 Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them.
Mt 20:26 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant,
Mt 20:27 and whoever wants to be first must be your slave—
Mt 20:28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

their is no one in all creation that has served so many that the blessing will cover all of God's creation ,this is why Mt 20:26 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant,
Mt 20:27 and whoever wants to be first must be your slave—

CHRIST THE SON OF GOD HIS THE FIRST “

August 9, 2013 at 12:04 am#353664

Participant

Mike,

It is possible that the “Word was made flesh”” can imply the “Word was made into flesh” as I can understand the clause “”the ingredients were made cake” as “the ingredients were made into cake”. After all the ingredients are in the cake.

The Word translates from a not flesh state to a flesh state but is not transformed into flesh as the flesh is made of the seed of David.

The children of God are fathered when God sends his Spirit into their hearts, whether they are man or angel. In a like manner the children of the devil are fathered when they gain a spirit that is short of God's glory.

Romans 8:15
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Galatians 4:6
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

August 9, 2013 at 12:35 am#353665

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Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 08 2013,18:04)

Mike,

Is there another understanding of “the ingredients were made cake” besides “the ingredients were made into cake”?

Kerwin, it is clear to me that you understand the meaning of the words “the Word was made flesh”. And I'm quite sure we wouldn't even be having this discussion at all if it wasn't for your own personal reasons to not accept the most obvious and common sense meaning of those words.

You are being guided by your personal notions of what the scriptures SHOULD teach. And that is causing you to pretend there is a different meaning of “the ingredients were made cake” besides “the ingredients were made into cake”.

There really isn't.

August 9, 2013 at 1:15 am#353670

Participant

Mike,

Those experts seem to prefer a complex understanding in claiming that Paul is hypothetically claiming Abraham is our father according to the carnal nature if he and we are to obtain righteousness by works.

They are correct that the clause “according to the flesh” can either have a spiritual or physical meaning.

I prefer a more simple understanding that is echoed in:

Romans 9:3
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

August 9, 2013 at 1:23 am#353671

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Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 08 2013,19:15)

Mike,

Kerwin,

Please proof-read your posts to see if they make sense before posting them. I'm having a hard time figuring out your wording lately.

And the commentators aren't opting for “the complex understanding”, Kerwin. The are taking the logical approach, based on the context of the passage and the word order of the original text.

Do you agree that Paul's teaching in Rom 4 is about how we cannot find righteousness with God according to our own fleshly works? YES or NO?

August 9, 2013 at 1:31 am#353672

Participant

Mike,

You seem to want John 1:14 to mean the Word was transformed into a human being even though you know the flesh was made of the seed of David. Unless you believe the Word is the seed of David you have two different ingredients the human being was made of.

I previously stated the Word translated to flesh but it did not transform as that would contradict the flesh being of the seed of David.

It seems reasonable that the Word translated to flesh when God sent forth his Spirit into the flesh that was to be named Jesus as receiving the Spirit is being begotten of God.

August 9, 2013 at 1:38 am#353673

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 09 2013,07:23)

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 08 2013,19:15)

Mike,

Kerwin,

Please proof-read your posts to see if they make sense before posting them. I'm having a hard time figuring out your wording lately.

And the commentators aren't opting for “the complex understanding”, Kerwin. The are taking the logical approach, based on the context of the passage and the word order of the original text.

Do you agree that Paul's teaching in Rom 4 is about how we cannot find righteousness with God according to our own fleshly works? YES or NO?

Mike,

It sounds like Paul's audience of that teaching is the Jewish believers who hold to the doctrine of living according to the works of the law and so not living by the Spirit. Those same Jews Paul later referred to as his brothers according to the flesh.

Double negatives confuse me. Yes, the works of the flesh fall short of God's glory but Paul is teaching of the works of the law and not the works of the flesh. I agree the works of the law come before the Spirit was first given and so can only come from the flesh.

I don't find the experts words untrue but only complex and so a very doubtful understanding of Paul's words.

August 9, 2013 at 2:53 am#353684

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 07 2013,12:45)

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 06 2013,06:42)

Hi Mike,

Why doesn't it instead tell you that “The Word” is God's HolySpirit?

Why? Does God's Holy Spirit have a will of its own – that may or may not agree with God's will?

Hi Mike,

NO, the HolySpirit is the will of the father.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

August 9, 2013 at 3:31 am#353689

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 09 2013,09:50)

edj

Quote

2) Col.1:16-17 refers to “The Father”, which is the subject starting in verse 12.

I still waiting for you to honestly show me all Col 1 to 21 and show me where it is talking of God or Christ ,but you only say you do it but you did not ,

and you have to interpret the scriptures as you switch it in your twisted ways ,and call anyone else a twister of scriptures ?

Hi Pierre,

“God The Father” is the “Subject” in Col.1:12-20 and Jesus is the Object; English 101.
I will take the liberty to insert both the subject and object into the text for 'your' understanding.
Normally I remove the numbers, but for explanation purposes, my “Free Will” will leave them in for you.
There is no inconsistencies with the rest of “The Bible” – viewing Col.1:12-20 in the light of my view. (Eph.5:13)

Col.1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet
to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light (Romans 8:17):
13: Who (YHVH our God) hath delivered us from the power of darkness,
and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son(switching to object):
14: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15: Who(Jesus) is the image of the invisible God(YHVH), the firstborn of every creature:
16: For by him(YHVH)(switching back to the subject) were all things created, that are in heaven,
and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities,
or powers: all things were created by him(YHVH), and for him(YHVH): (compare with Revelation 4:11)
17: And he(YHVH) is before all things, and by him(YHVH) all things consist. (see also Isaiah 42:5-7)
18: And he(Jesus Christ)(switching back to the object) is the head of the body, the church:
who is the beginning(the preeminence of God), the firstborn from the dead (Romans 1:4);
that in all things he(Jesus) might have the preeminence(over all his brethren).
19: For it pleased the Father that in him(Jesus) should all fulness dwell;
20: And, having made peace through the blood of his(Jesus) cross,
by him(YHVH) to reconcile all things unto himself(2Cor.5:18);
by him, whether things in earth, or things in heaven.

Lets now look at verse 16 and verse 17 with greater scrutiny…

16: For by him(YHVH) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth,
visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities,
or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: (Rev.4:11)

Would 'you' have us to believe Jesus (falsely) created these things “in Heaven”…

1. God's throne
2. God's dominion
3. God's principality
4. God's power
5. God himself

Can you not see the flaw in 'your' assertion?

Now let's take a closer look at verse 17…

17: And he(YHVH) is before all things, and by him(YHVH) all things consist.

Would 'you' have us to believe Jesus (falsely) is before YHVH himself?
Would 'you' have us to believe by Jesus (falsely) all things consist?
How can you reconcile this belief without saying Jesus is God?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

August 9, 2013 at 3:39 am#353690

2besee

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 09 2013,16:31)

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 09 2013,09:50)

edj

Quote

2) Col.1:16-17 refers to “The Father”, which is the subject starting in verse 12.

I still waiting for you to honestly show me all Col 1 to 21 and show me where it is talking of God or Christ ,but you only say you do it but you did not ,

and you have to interpret the scriptures as you switch it in your twisted ways ,and call anyone else a twister of scriptures ?

Hi Pierre,

Lets now look at verse 16 and verse 17 with greater scrutiny…

Would 'you' have us to believe Jesus (falsely) created these things “in Heaven”…

1. God's throne
2. God's dominion
3. God's principality
4. God's power
5. God himself

Can you not see the flaw in 'your' assertion?

Now let's take a closer look at verse 17…

17: And he(YHVH) is before all things, and by him(YHVH) all things consist.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Ed, Amen, thank you for that information. That's what I thought but you just put it better than me.

August 9, 2013 at 3:52 pm#353708

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 09 2013,09:31)

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 09 2013,09:50)

edj

Quote

2) Col.1:16-17 refers to “The Father”, which is the subject starting in verse 12.

I still waiting for you to honestly show me all Col 1 to 21 and show me where it is talking of God or Christ ,but you only say you do it but you did not ,

and you have to interpret the scriptures as you switch it in your twisted ways ,and call anyone else a twister of scriptures ?

Hi Pierre,

Lets now look at verse 16 and verse 17 with greater scrutiny…

Would 'you' have us to believe Jesus (falsely) created these things “in Heaven”…

1. God's throne
2. God's dominion
3. God's principality
4. God's power
5. God himself

Can you not see the flaw in 'your' assertion?

Now let's take a closer look at verse 17…

17: And he(YHVH) is before all things, and by him(YHVH) all things consist.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

edj

no ,switching ,I just want your view ;so only either God or Christ ,

you can give your notes on the botton but not in those scriptures ,so please correct the extras addition

August 9, 2013 at 3:59 pm#353709

Participant

edj

Quote

16: For by him(YHVH) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth,
visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities,
or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: (Rev.4:11)

first if you would know the God of the scriptures ,you would know that God does not need anything ,so whatever he as created was for some else than himself ,his son ,his only one begotten son ,through whom he created all other things,

the fact that God creates all things remain and belong to him ,but it is out of the LOVE FOR HIS SON that he made all things and because of the son intervention that he as save men and accept for his only son to go through the pain he did ,

for all those reasons I disagree with you

August 9, 2013 at 5:58 pm#353712

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 10 2013,02:52)

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 09 2013,09:31)

Hi Pierre,

Lets now look at verse 16 and verse 17 with greater scrutiny…

Would 'you' have us to believe Jesus (falsely) created these things “in Heaven”…

1. God's throne
2. God's dominion
3. God's principality
4. God's power
5. God himself

Can you not see the flaw in 'your' assertion?

Now let's take a closer look at verse 17…

17: And he(YHVH) is before all things, and by him(YHVH) all things consist.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

edj

no ,switching ,I just want your view ;so only either God or Christ ,

you can give your notes on the botton but not in those scriptures ,so please correct the extras addition

Hi Pierre,

That is my answer, sorry if you disapprove.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

August 9, 2013 at 5:58 pm#353713

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 10 2013,02:59)

edj

Quote

for all those reasons I disagree with you

Hi Pierre,

You are of course free to do that.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

August 9, 2013 at 5:59 pm#353714

Participant

Quote (2besee @ Aug. 09 2013,14:39)

Ed, Amen, thank you for that information. That's what I thought but you just put it better than me.

August 9, 2013 at 8:52 pm#353722

Participant

edj and 2bee

Col 1:13 For he(God) has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he(God) loves,
Col 1:14 in(Christ) whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Col 1:15 He(Christ) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him(this is Christ their is no changes in direction from Paul speech) all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. (1PE 3:22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.)
Col 1:17 He(Christ,because he as been created the first and so is before all things but not God his father ) is before all things, and in him all things hold together. (Mt 20:26 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant,
Mt 20:27 and whoever wants to be first must be your slave— (1Co 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.)
Mt 20:28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”)
Col 1:18 And he(Christ) is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning “+”and the firstborn from among the dead, “+” so that in everything he(Christ) might have the supremacy. (EVERYTHING STANDS FOR “EVERYTHING = ALL, EXCEPT GOD,)
Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,(Christ) (1Co 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.)
Col 1:20 and through him(Christ) to reconcile to himself(God) all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. (Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:( Jn 6:51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven; Jn 14:24 He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.(at what point does Christ says he received the words of his father )in heaven yes
Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Heb 9:26 For then must he(Christ) often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he(Christ) appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself )THIS SCRIPTURES MAKE CHRIST BEING EXISTING PRIOR TO HIS MAN LIKE LIFE,
Col 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior.
Col 1:22 But now he(Christ) has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— (Jn 8:24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins.”)
Col 1:23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

Jn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

I have shown the supporting scriptures along

August 9, 2013 at 9:40 pm#353723

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Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 08 2013,19:31)

I previously stated the Word translated to flesh but it did not transform as that would contradict the flesh being of the seed of David.

And what if I could show you scripturally that the Word being made flesh DIDN'T contradict the flesh being the seed of David?

Would you then change your mind, Kerwin? Would you then at least listen with an open mind?

If the answer to that last question is “YES”, then I will lay it out for you, according to the scriptures.

August 9, 2013 at 9:45 pm#353724