JOHN 1:1 who is the WORD?

[terraricca]

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 05 2013,05:35)

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 05 2013,01:28) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 04 2013,12:19) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 04 2013,09:42) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 04 2013,15:02) 16: For by him(YHVH) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: (Rev.4:11) Would 'you' have us to believe Jesus (falsely) created these things “in Heaven”… 1. God's throne 2. God's dominion 3. God's principality 4. God's power 5. God himself Can you not see the flaw in 'your' assertion? Now let's take a closer look at verse 17… 17: And he(YHVH) is before all things, and by him(YHVH) all things consist. Would 'you' have us to believe Jesus (falsely) is before YHVH himself? Would 'you' have us to believe by Jesus (falsely) all things consist? How can you reconcile this belief without saying Jesus is God? “Thus saith the LORD(YHVH), thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I the LORD(YHVH) that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; That frustrateth the tokens of the liars, and maketh diviners mad; that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish;” (Isaiah 44:24-25) “The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne(YHVH),  and worship him(YHVH) that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,  Thou art worthy, O LORD(YHVH), to receive glory and honor and power:  for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.” (Rev 4:10-11) When you compare these verses to Col.1:16-17, it is apearent the subject is “GOD The Father”! Hi Pierre, Please look a little closer at how all these fit together perfectly. You trying to   apply Colossians 1:16-17 to Jesus puts them in conflict with Isaiah 44:24 and Rev 4:11. Instead of you just brushing this off, you need to focus on the parts that I have enlarged for you.   God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org edj I ask you to look into Col 1;15-16 and more I have quoted you the all section but you can not use scriptures as they are written ,YOU SEEM TO HAVE A NEED TO SHOW US ALL HOW GOD IS TALKING THROUGH YOU ,AND THIS TO MAKE YOU A MIGHTY ONE ,CHRIST SAYS THAT TO BE GREAT WE MUST HUMBEL OUR SELVES TO THE POINT OF BECOMING SERVANTS TO OUR FELLOW MEN , Jammin ,is also pointing out a good point that I was also going to show you but he beat to it ,well done Jammin. So you're refusing to comment on the points I have given in my quote?   How convenient, just ignore it and it will go away; is that it?

edj

I do not refuse anything ,but you have to try at the least to be honest and stick to my questions and stop to always try to switch to your version of even what obviously kill my question and so will never be answered ,

it seems you can not stop to be a manipulator ,

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 04 2013,13:13)

All John states in John 1:14 is the Word was made flesh.

And did this utterance of Jehovah actually BECOME the flesh and blood man Jesus? Did the original Jesus of Nazareth cease to exist from that time forward because the Word took over the entire existence that used to be Jesus'?

[Ed J]

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 05 2013,10:51)

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 05 2013,05:35) Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 05 2013,01:28) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 04 2013,12:19) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 04 2013,09:42) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 04 2013,15:02) 16: For by him(YHVH) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: (Rev.4:11) Would 'you' have us to believe Jesus (falsely) created these things “in Heaven”… 1. God's throne 2. God's dominion 3. God's principality 4. God's power 5. God himself Can you not see the flaw in 'your' assertion? Now let's take a closer look at verse 17… 17: And he(YHVH) is before all things, and by him(YHVH) all things consist. Would 'you' have us to believe Jesus (falsely) is before YHVH himself? Would 'you' have us to believe by Jesus (falsely) all things consist? How can you reconcile this belief without saying Jesus is God? “Thus saith the LORD(YHVH), thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I the LORD(YHVH) that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; That frustrateth the tokens of the liars, and maketh diviners mad; that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish;” (Isaiah 44:24-25) “The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne(YHVH),  and worship him(YHVH) that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,  Thou art worthy, O LORD(YHVH), to receive glory and honor and power:  for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.” (Rev 4:10-11) When you compare these verses to Col.1:16-17, it is apearent the subject is “GOD The Father”! Hi Pierre, Please look a little closer at how all these fit together perfectly. You trying to   apply Colossians 1:16-17 to Jesus puts them in conflict with Isaiah 44:24 and Rev 4:11. Instead of you just brushing this off, you need to focus on the parts that I have enlarged for you.   God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org edj I ask you to look into Col 1;15-16 and more I have quoted you the all section but you can not use scriptures as they are written ,YOU SEEM TO HAVE A NEED TO SHOW US ALL HOW GOD IS TALKING THROUGH YOU ,AND THIS TO MAKE YOU A MIGHTY ONE ,CHRIST SAYS THAT TO BE GREAT WE MUST HUMBEL OUR SELVES TO THE POINT OF BECOMING SERVANTS TO OUR FELLOW MEN , Jammin ,is also pointing out a good point that I was also going to show you but he beat to it ,well done Jammin. So you're refusing to comment on the points I have given in my quote?   How convenient, just ignore it and it will go away; is that it? edj I do not refuse anything ,but you have to try at the least to be honest and stick to my questions and stop to always try to switch to your version of even what obviously kill my question and so will never be answered , it seems you can not stop to be a manipulator ,

Hi Pierre,

My goal is different from yours.
My goal is simply to give you my understanding.
Your goal seems to be trying to convince me yours overrules mine.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[kerwin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 05 2013,05:58)

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 04 2013,13:13) All John states in John 1:14 is the Word was made flesh. And did this utterance of Jehovah actually BECOME the flesh and blood man Jesus?  Did the original Jesus of Nazareth cease to exist from that time forward because the Word took over the entire existence that used to be Jesus'?

Mike,

We would need at least one more, and preferably more, passage to determine that.

Luke 22:42
King James Version (KJV)

42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

Luke teaches us that Jesus had a will separate than God's while God's Word does not.

[mikeboll64]

Okay Kerwin.  Now you're using your head for something more than a hat rack!  

So if Jesus is the Word, and Jesus had a different will than the Father, then it should tell us that this particular “Word” was NOT simply an utterance of the Father………. because an utterance of the Father wouldn't even have a will of its own – let alone a will that was different than the Father's will.

So it seems like we're right back to square one – which is your necessity to claim the Word came to be IN flesh, instead of “the Word was made flesh”. And once again, you must SEPARATE Jesus from the Word, as if they are two. But then you have to figure out which one of the two dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son, right? And we all know that the ONLY entity who ever dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son was God's only begotten Son, Jesus Christ.

Back to the drawing board for you.

[kerwin]

Mike,

It seems you are assuming John 1:14 teaches how the Word was made flesh and not just that it was made flesh.

I will have to introduce another passage to speak of an observation about the flesh.

Romans 1:3
King James Version (KJV)

3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

The flesh is made of the seed of David.

[jammin]

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 05 2013,03:21)

Quote (jammin @ Aug. 05 2013,00:41) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 04 2013,15:02) Hi Pierre, 15: Who(Jesus) is the image of the invisible God(YHVH), the firstborn of every creature: if God is the HE in col 1.15-16 then this will be th outcome. GOD is the image of the invisible God are you ok?? are you sick? study hard Hi Jammin, YOU obviously don't pay attention to what you read. God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

you are the one who do not pay attention. i told you to read the context. in verse 16, it speaks about christ.
in 17, it is also about christ and not the father! that is the importance of the context. it will not mislead you.

you want proof?

let me post verse 16-17

Colossians 1:16-17

Contemporary English Version (CEV)

16 Everything was created by him,
everything in heaven
   and on earth,
everything seen and unseen,
including all forces
   and powers,
and all rulers
   and authorities.
All things were created
   by God’s Son,
and everything was made
   for him.

17 God’s Son was before all else,
and by him everything
   is held together.

Colossians 1:16-17

Good News Translation (GNT)

16 For through him God created everything in heaven and on earth, the seen and the unseen things, including spiritual powers, lords, rulers, and authorities. God created the whole universe through him and for him. 17 Christ existed before all things, and in union with him all things have their proper place.

there you go.
no version says that the father is the HE in verse 17!

do you understand? make your own bible

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 04 2013,20:34)

Mike, It seems you are assuming John 1:14 teaches how the Word was made flesh and not just that it was made flesh. I will have to introduce another passage to speak of an observation about the flesh. Romans 1:3 King James Version (KJV) 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; The flesh is made of the seed of David.

Quote

Mike, It seems you are assuming John 1:14 teaches how the Word was made flesh and not just that it was made flesh.

Nope. My only claim is that the Word was in fact MADE FLESH. It seems your claim is that the Word ENTERED INTO a flesh person who already existed. If that is the case, then this “utterance” of God would have remained spirit, and would have never actually BEEN MADE flesh.

Quote

Romans 1:3 King James Version (KJV) 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; The flesh is made of the seed of David.

Agreed. Jesus, ACCORDING ONLY TO THE FLESH, was an offspring of David. So according to WHAT was Jesus the ROOT of David?

And why make the distinction in the first place? If there wasn't anything to Jesus except for the “ACCORDING TO THE FLESH Jesus”, then why mention it?

Do we say, Kerwin is the son of John…… ACCORDING TO THE FLESH? Of course not. So why make that distinction in the case of Jesus? Perhaps because in Jesus' “NOT according to the flesh existence”, he was NOT of the seed of David, but instead the ROOT of David?

Kerwin, let's stay focused. Do you believe an “utterance” from God's mouth actually BECAME the flesh and blood being of Jesus Christ? YES or NO?

If “NO”, then the Word didn't actually BECOME FLESH, like the scripture clearly says.

If “YES”, then this spirit “utterance” of God died and shed blood for mankind.

So what's the answer?

[terraricca]

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 05 2013,06:50)

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 05 2013,10:51) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 05 2013,05:35) Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 05 2013,01:28) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 04 2013,12:19) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 04 2013,09:42) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 04 2013,15:02) 16: For by him(YHVH) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: (Rev.4:11) Would 'you' have us to believe Jesus (falsely) created these things “in Heaven”… 1. God's throne 2. God's dominion 3. God's principality 4. God's power 5. God himself Can you not see the flaw in 'your' assertion? Now let's take a closer look at verse 17… 17: And he(YHVH) is before all things, and by him(YHVH) all things consist. Would 'you' have us to believe Jesus (falsely) is before YHVH himself? Would 'you' have us to believe by Jesus (falsely) all things consist? How can you reconcile this belief without saying Jesus is God? “Thus saith the LORD(YHVH), thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I the LORD(YHVH) that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; That frustrateth the tokens of the liars, and maketh diviners mad; that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish;” (Isaiah 44:24-25) “The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne(YHVH),  and worship him(YHVH) that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,  Thou art worthy, O LORD(YHVH), to receive glory and honor and power:  for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.” (Rev 4:10-11) When you compare these verses to Col.1:16-17, it is apearent the subject is “GOD The Father”! Hi Pierre, Please look a little closer at how all these fit together perfectly. You trying to   apply Colossians 1:16-17 to Jesus puts them in conflict with Isaiah 44:24 and Rev 4:11. Instead of you just brushing this off, you need to focus on the parts that I have enlarged for you.   God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org edj I ask you to look into Col 1;15-16 and more I have quoted you the all section but you can not use scriptures as they are written ,YOU SEEM TO HAVE A NEED TO SHOW US ALL HOW GOD IS TALKING THROUGH YOU ,AND THIS TO MAKE YOU A MIGHTY ONE ,CHRIST SAYS THAT TO BE GREAT WE MUST HUMBEL OUR SELVES TO THE POINT OF BECOMING SERVANTS TO OUR FELLOW MEN , Jammin ,is also pointing out a good point that I was also going to show you but he beat to it ,well done Jammin. So you're refusing to comment on the points I have given in my quote?   How convenient, just ignore it and it will go away; is that it? edj I do not refuse anything ,but you have to try at the least to be honest and stick to my questions and stop to always try to switch to your version of even what obviously kill my question and so will never be answered , it seems you can not stop to be a manipulator , Hi Pierre, My goal is different from yours. My goal is simply to give you my understanding. Your goal seems to be trying to convince me yours overrules mine. God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

edj

Quote

Hi Pierre, My goal is different from yours. My goal is simply to give you my understanding. Your goal seems to be trying to convince me yours overrules mine. God bless

my goal is to find the scriptural truth ,and to exange my findings with others so that I may/could/hope/to learn from it ,but you have only your personal and exclusif interpretation of what the scriptures should be ,this I can not /will not /never do ,

[mikeboll64]

Ed,

The word translated as “by” in the first part of Col 1:16 is also translated as “through” 39 times in the AKJV. After all, “by” and “through” are synonyms.

It seems that the last part of verse 16 confirms that it should be translated as “through” – because the last part (“all things were created through him and for him”) is just an affirmation of the first part (“for all things in heaven and on earth were created by/through him”).

Remember that “by” and “through” are synonyms, and often mean exactly the same thing.

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 05 2013,12:44)

Okay Kerwin.  Now you're using your head for something more than a hat rack!   So if Jesus is the Word, and Jesus had a different will than the Father, then it should tell us that this particular “Word” was NOT simply an utterance of the Father………. because an utterance of the Father wouldn't even have a will of its own – let alone a will that was different than the Father's will. So it seems like we're right back to square one – which is your necessity to claim the Word came to be IN flesh, instead of “the Word was made flesh”.  And once again, you must SEPARATE Jesus from the Word, as if they are two.  But then you have to figure out which one of the two dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son, right?  And we all know that the ONLY entity who ever dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son was God's only begotten Son, Jesus Christ. Back to the drawing board for you.

Hi Mike,

Why doesn't it instead tell you that “The Word” is God's HolySpirit?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Quote (jammin @ Aug. 05 2013,16:42)

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 05 2013,03:21) Quote (jammin @ Aug. 05 2013,00:41) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 04 2013,15:02) Hi Pierre, 15: Who(Jesus) is the image of the invisible God(YHVH), the firstborn of every creature: if God is the HE in col 1.15-16 then this will be th outcome. GOD is the image of the invisible God are you ok?? are you sick? study hard Hi Jammin, YOU obviously don't pay attention to what you read. God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org you are the one who do not pay attention. i told you to read the context. in verse 16, it speaks about christ. in 17, it is also about christ and not the father! that is the importance of the context. it will not mislead you. you want proof? let me post verse 16-17 Colossians 1:16-17 Contemporary English Version (CEV) 16 Everything was created by him, everything in heaven    and on earth, everything seen and unseen, including all forces    and powers, and all rulers    and authorities. All things were created    by God’s Son, and everything was made    for him. 17 God’s Son was before all else, and by him everything    is held together. Colossians 1:16-17 Good News Translation (GNT) 16 For through him God created everything in heaven and on earth, the seen and the unseen things, including spiritual powers, lords, rulers, and authorities. God created the whole universe through him and for him. 17 Christ existed before all things, and in union with him all things have their proper place. there you go. no version says that the father is the HE in verse 17! do you understand? make your own bible

“As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things;
 in which are some things hard to be understood, which they
 that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the
 other scriptures, unto their own destruction.” (2 Peter 3:16)

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 06 2013,06:42)

Hi Mike, Why doesn't it instead tell you that “The Word” is God's HolySpirit?

Why? Does God's Holy Spirit have a will of its own – that may or may not agree with God's will?

Hey, are you ever going to comment on the post at the top of this page? I re-posted it for you a second time because I thought maybe you never saw it.

[kerwin]

Mike,

The flesh is made of the seed of David, it is not made of the Word. The Word was made flesh not made into flesh.

No, the utterance did not literally become flesh and blood as that would contradict the flesh being made of the seed of David.

The Word was made flesh is a poetic statement just like saying the flesh was first called by the name of the Word at that time is a poetic statement.

I previously gave a definition of name that helps in summing up the idea.

[jammin]

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 06 2013,23:50)

Quote (jammin @ Aug. 05 2013,16:42) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 05 2013,03:21) Quote (jammin @ Aug. 05 2013,00:41) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 04 2013,15:02) Hi Pierre, 15: Who(Jesus) is the image of the invisible God(YHVH), the firstborn of every creature: if God is the HE in col 1.15-16 then this will be th outcome. GOD is the image of the invisible God are you ok?? are you sick? study hard Hi Jammin, YOU obviously don't pay attention to what you read. God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org you are the one who do not pay attention. i told you to read the context. in verse 16, it speaks about christ. in 17, it is also about christ and not the father! that is the importance of the context. it will not mislead you. you want proof? let me post verse 16-17 Colossians 1:16-17 Contemporary English Version (CEV) 16 Everything was created by him, everything in heaven    and on earth, everything seen and unseen, including all forces    and powers, and all rulers    and authorities. All things were created    by God’s Son, and everything was made    for him. 17 God’s Son was before all else, and by him everything    is held together. Colossians 1:16-17 Good News Translation (GNT) 16 For through him God created everything in heaven and on earth, the seen and the unseen things, including spiritual powers, lords, rulers, and authorities. God created the whole universe through him and for him. 17 Christ existed before all things, and in union with him all things have their proper place. there you go. no version says that the father is the HE in verse 17! do you understand? make your own bible “As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things;  in which are some things hard to be understood, which they  that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the  other scriptures, unto their own destruction.” (2 Peter 3:16)

why you are not accepting God's word?

cant you see that the HE in verse 17 is the son and not the father???

why is it hard for you to accept the truth?

[kerwin]

Mike,

Quote

Agreed. Jesus, ACCORDING ONLY TO THE FLESH, was an offspring of David. So according to WHAT was Jesus the ROOT of David? And why make the distinction in the first place? If there wasn't anything to Jesus except for the “ACCORDING TO THE FLESH Jesus”, then why mention it?

Romans 4:1
King James Version (KJV)

4 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

According to the flesh Abraham is the father of the Jews.

Never the less Jesus stated certain one were the children of Satan.

John 8:44
King James Version (KJV)

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

What part of them does the devil father?

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 06 2013,11:22)

Ed, The word translated as “by” in the first part of Col 1:16 is also translated as “through” 39 times in the AKJV.  After all, “by” and “through” are synonyms. It seems that the last part of verse 16 confirms that it should be translated as “through” – because the last part (“all things were created through him and for him”) is just an affirmation of the first part (“for all things in heaven and on earth were created by/through him”). Remember that “by” and “through” are synonyms, and often mean exactly the same thing.

Hi Mike,

I would agree with the AKJV translators here because Col.1:16-17
refers to “The Father”, which is the subject starting in verse 12.
I didn't respond because you already know my position here.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Quote (jammin @ Aug. 08 2013,20:39)

(1) why you are not accepting God's word? (2) cant you see that the HE in verse 17 is the son and not the father??? (3) why is it hard for you to accept the truth?

Hi Jammin,

1) I do accept Gods word, not but the what systems of religion and traditions teach concerning them.

2) Col.1:16-17 refers to “The Father”, which is the subject starting in verse 12.

3) It is hard for YOU to accept the truth because religious indoctrination is hard to overcome.  (see Col.2:21-22)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[terraricca]

edj

Quote

2) Col.1:16-17 refers to “The Father”, which is the subject starting in verse 12.

I still waiting for you to honestly show me all Col 1 to 21 and show me where it is talking of God or Christ ,but you only say you do it but you did not ,

and you have to interpret the scriptures as you switch it in your twisted ways ,and call anyone else a twister of scriptures ?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 08 2013,16:36)

……..Col.1:16-17 refers to “The Father”……………

I disagree, and think it's reckless of you to up and switch subjects in the writing when the one who actually wrote it gave no indication of a subject switch.

What I posted was to allow you to see that, even keeping Jesus as the subject all the way through the passage, it still doesn't say all things were created BY Jesus. Instead, it is just another scriptural passage (there are 4 altogether) that teaches us that all things came FROM God and THROUGH Jesus.

In other words, keeping Jesus as the subject does NOT, as you said, imply that all things were created BY Jesus. And therefore, it does NOT contradict any scriptures that say God alone created all things.

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