JOHN 1:1 who is the WORD?

[kerwin]

Quote (jammin @ July 31 2013,13:35)

Quote (kerwin @ July 31 2013,10:35) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 31 2013,05:20) Quote (kerwin @ July 29 2013,20:43) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 28 2013,22:07) I agree that we could metaphorically and poetically say that Elisha's word accomplished it's purpose.  But just because we personify the word of Elisha – making it sound like it was an entity separate from Elisha, complete with it's own will – the fact remains that this is just poetic speaking, and “the word of Elisha” was never anything except words that Elisha spoke out of his mouth. Are we agreed on this point? Mike, Yes Great.  Then the fact that God's spoken words are sometimes poetically personified doesn't change the fact that they are, in fact, just words that God has spoken. On the other hand, I believe we agree that “the Word of God” in Rev 19:13 refers to a title that God's spokesman Jesus holds……… and NOT to literal words that God has spoken.  Is this a correct assumption on my part? Mike, Rev 19:13 is poetic but it is stating a person is called by the name of the Word of God at that time.   The Word of God is the same Word that is previously poetically personalized but now a person incarnates it just like the same person incarnates Faithful and True, two other names he has. I do not see Faithful, True, or Word of God as titles so much as a description of who Jesus is. buy you know what kerwin i cant see in rev 19.13 your words WILL BE CALLED the Word of God. when are you going to publish your own version?

Jammin,

All that means is none is so blind as those that won't see.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ July 30 2013,17:35)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 31 2013,05:20) I believe we agree that “the Word of God” in Rev 19:13 refers to a title that God's spokesman Jesus holds……… and NOT to literal words that God has spoken.  Is this a correct assumption on my part? Mike, Rev 19:13 is poetic but it is stating a person is called by the name of the Word of God at that time.

And who is this person whose name is “The Word of God”?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ July 31 2013,11:27)

Quote (jammin @ July 31 2013,13:35) kerwin i cant see in rev 19.13 your words WILL BE CALLED the Word of God. Jammin, All that means is none is so blind as those that won't see.

jammin makes a good point, Kerwin.  The Greek has “the name of him is called”.  The verb is in the present tense, not the future tense.

I understand your point that this rider hasn't yet mounted his white horse to do battle against the beast and his armies.  That battle WILL happen in the future.

But you are trying to take the fact that the battle is in the future, and apply that future tense to “his name is called”.

But in truth, the fact that battle will be in the future doesn't imply that Jesus will be called the Word of God only in the future.

In other words, it seems you are trying to prohibit Jesus from being the Word of God from days of old just because Rev 19:13 speaks of a future time when his name is called the Word of God.

This is confusing, so let me use an analogy:

Let's PRETEND that the rider on the horse will be Michael the archangel.  So John is talking about a FUTURE time when Michael is riding a horse, and says, “The name of the rider of the horse is called Michael.”

You seem to be implying that Michael couldn't have already been his name from days of old, because only in the future will his name be called Michael.  You are, in effect, changing “his name IS called Michael” to “his name WILL BE called Michael”.

But the truth is that Michael has been his name from days of old – and the fact that John mentions something Michael will do in the future does not imply that only in the future will his name be Michael.

Are you now able see the point jammin is trying to make?  He is saying that the fact the horse riding will be in the future doesn't mean his name being the Word of God is necessarily a future event.

So you can't say “his name will be called” – as if it isn't already his name right now – or as if it hasn't been his name from days of old.

The tense in the Greek text is present (“is called”).  It's better to keep it as it was written by John, don't you think?

[jammin]

mike,

good explanation

[jammin]

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 01 2013,04:27)

Quote (jammin @ July 31 2013,13:35) Quote (kerwin @ July 31 2013,10:35) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 31 2013,05:20) Quote (kerwin @ July 29 2013,20:43) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 28 2013,22:07) I agree that we could metaphorically and poetically say that Elisha's word accomplished it's purpose.  But just because we personify the word of Elisha – making it sound like it was an entity separate from Elisha, complete with it's own will – the fact remains that this is just poetic speaking, and “the word of Elisha” was never anything except words that Elisha spoke out of his mouth. Are we agreed on this point? Mike, Yes Great.  Then the fact that God's spoken words are sometimes poetically personified doesn't change the fact that they are, in fact, just words that God has spoken. On the other hand, I believe we agree that “the Word of God” in Rev 19:13 refers to a title that God's spokesman Jesus holds……… and NOT to literal words that God has spoken.  Is this a correct assumption on my part? Mike, Rev 19:13 is poetic but it is stating a person is called by the name of the Word of God at that time.   The Word of God is the same Word that is previously poetically personalized but now a person incarnates it just like the same person incarnates Faithful and True, two other names he has. I do not see Faithful, True, or Word of God as titles so much as a description of who Jesus is. buy you know what kerwin i cant see in rev 19.13 your words WILL BE CALLED the Word of God. when are you going to publish your own version? Jammin, All that means is none is so blind as those that won't see.

im not blind. i just cant read your version.
pls make one.

[jammin]

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 01 2013,00:00)

Hi Jammin, What does the “White Horse” symbolize that The Word is riding on? In other words what is the “White Horse” of Revelation 19:11? God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

bible says white horse.
some commentaries say maybe a symbol of the gospel.

[kerwin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 01 2013,03:58)

Quote (kerwin @ July 31 2013,11:27) Quote (jammin @ July 31 2013,13:35) kerwin i cant see in rev 19.13 your words WILL BE CALLED the Word of God. Jammin, All that means is none is so blind as those that won't see. jammin makes a good point, Kerwin.  The Greek has “the name of him is called”.  The verb is in the present tense, not the future tense. I understand your point that this rider hasn't yet mounted his white horse to do battle against the beast and his armies.  That battle WILL happen in the future. But you are trying to take the fact that the battle is in the future, and apply that future tense to “his name is called”. But in truth, the fact that battle will be in the future doesn't imply that Jesus will be called the Word of God only in the future. In other words, it seems you are trying to prohibit Jesus from being the Word of God from days of old just because Rev 19:13 speaks of a future time when his name is called the Word of God. This is confusing, so let me use an analogy: Let's PRETEND that the rider on the horse will be Michael the archangel.  So John is talking about a FUTURE time when Michael is riding a horse, and says, “The name of the rider of the horse is called Michael.” You seem to be implying that Michael couldn't have already been his name from days of old, because only in the future will his name be called Michael.  You are, in effect, changing “his name IS called Michael” to “his name WILL BE called Michael”. But the truth is that Michael has been his name from days of old – and the fact that John mentions something Michael will do in the future does not imply that only in the future will his name be Michael. Are you now able see the point jammin is trying to make?  He is saying that the fact the horse riding will be in the future doesn't mean his name being the Word of God is necessarily a future event. So you can't say “his name will be called” – as if it isn't already his name right now – or as if it hasn't been his name from days of old. The tense in the Greek text is present (“is called”).  It's better to keep it as it was written by John, don't you think?

Mike,

It is a prophecy of the future and not the present so the present it is speaking of is at that future time. It is silent on what goes before or after the time mentioned.

It does not tell us when he was first called the Word of God or when or if he will be called the Word of God a final time.

It is poetry and should be understood in that light.

[Ed J]

Quote (jammin @ Aug. 01 2013,13:25)

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 01 2013,00:00) Hi Jammin, What does the “White Horse” symbolize that The Word is riding on? In other words what is the “White Horse” of Revelation 19:11? God bless Ed J bible says white horse. some commentaries say maybe a symbol of the gospel.

Hi Jammin,

Thanks! Usually trying to get you to answer simple questions
is like pulling teeth. Currently I'm having this problem with Kerwin.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[mikeboll64]

Quote (jammin @ July 31 2013,20:11)

mike, good explanation

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ July 31 2013,22:45)

It does not tell us when he was first called the Word of God or when or if he will be called the Word of God a final time.

Exactly, Kerwin.

But to ALTER the text to “his name WILL BE called” is to imply that his name hasn't already been called that since days of old.

Your alteration makes it seem as if “the Word of God” WILL BE a new name that Jesus hasn't already had.

So even though you admit that “his name is called” doesn't shed any light on how long he has been called by that name, you take it upon yourself to SLANT the translation into implying it WILL BE a new name for him.

It's best to just leave it in the present tense like John wrote it.  Agreed?

[kerwin]

Mike,

Do you mean John might of been basically saying “he is currently called by the name of the Word of God”?

As for what I hear, he may or may not be called the Word of God at other times than the one John speaks of. Revelations 19:13 does not tell us.

[mikeboll64]

What I'm saying is that the words are “his name IS called the Word of God”, and we shouldn't ALTER it to “his name WILL BE called the Word of God”.

Your ALTERATION gives a SLANT that his name is not already called the Word of God.

Imagine it said, “his name is called Jesus”. And then you ALTER it to say, “his name WILL BE called Jesus”.

Do you see how that alteration SLANTS the teaching, and implies that “Jesus” will be a new name for him – as if he hasn't already BEEN “Jesus” since days of old?

Do you agree that it's best to leave the tense of the verb exactly how John originally wrote it? YES or NO?

[kerwin]

Mike,

I have always treated the tense as present tense though the context of the words containing it were in John's future.  

My point is that a name Jesus is called by at the time John foresaw is not evidence Jesus was called by that same name in the beginning.  An example is that Abraham was not called Abraham before God declared Abraham to be his name.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 03 2013,12:34)

Mike, I have always treated the tense as present tense though the context of the words containing it were in John's future.

Have you?  I could swear that I've seen you “correcting” jammin by insisting the rider will be called the Word of God.  Perhaps I was seeing things?

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 03 2013,12:34)

My point is that a name Jesus is called by at the time John foresaw is not evidence Jesus was called by that same name in the beginning.

I've already agreed to this at least twice, Kerwin.  The fact that Jesus IS called the Word of God in John's future revelation sheds no light on whether or not he was ever called that before this future time.

But you ALTERING the text to “WILL BE CALLED” is slanting the text in ways John never intended.

It seems we can both agree that his name IS called the Word of God in the future, which doesn't prohibit him from having that name from days of old.

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 02 2013,09:46)

Mike, Do you mean John might of been basically saying “he is currently called by the name of the Word of God”? As for what I hear, he may or may not be called the Word of God at other times than the one John speaks of.  Revelations 19:13 does not tell us.

kerwin

Christ as been the son of God sins the first of all creation if not Paul is a fake and liar;

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

those words of Paul do not need interpretation unless you want them to be not saying what they really saying ,

“the word of God ” is also the son of God and will be forever the WORD OF GOD ,why is that because the entire creation will be subdued to the son of God and this make Christ the word of God the only line to God the father ,the spoke person ,the communicator to the rest of creation ,the middle party ,between God and all creation.

[Ed J]

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 04 2013,13:53)

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 02 2013,09:46) Mike, Do you mean John might of been basically saying “he is currently called by the name of the Word of God”? As for what I hear, he may or may not be called the Word of God at other times than the one John speaks of.  Revelations 19:13 does not tell us. kerwin Christ as been the son of God sins the first of all creation if not Paul is a fake and liar; Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. those words of Paul do not need interpretation unless you want them to be not saying what they really saying , “the word of God ” is also the son of God  and will be forever the WORD OF GOD  ,why is that because the entire creation will be subdued to the son of God and this make Christ the word of God the only line to God the father ,the spoke person ,the communicator to the rest of creation ,the middle party ,between God and all creation.

Hi Pierre,

Col.1:16-17 is about God, not Jesus.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[terraricca]

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 04 2013,09:06)

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 04 2013,13:53) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 02 2013,09:46) Mike, Do you mean John might of been basically saying “he is currently called by the name of the Word of God”? As for what I hear, he may or may not be called the Word of God at other times than the one John speaks of.  Revelations 19:13 does not tell us. kerwin Christ as been the son of God sins the first of all creation if not Paul is a fake and liar; Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. those words of Paul do not need interpretation unless you want them to be not saying what they really saying , “the word of God ” is also the son of God  and will be forever the WORD OF GOD  ,why is that because the entire creation will be subdued to the son of God and this make Christ the word of God the only line to God the father ,the spoke person ,the communicator to the rest of creation ,the middle party ,between God and all creation. Hi Pierre, Col.1:16-17 is about God, not Jesus. God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

edj

prove it , who is the “HE”

[Ed J]

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 04 2013,14:20)

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 04 2013,09:06) Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 04 2013,13:53) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 02 2013,09:46) Mike, Do you mean John might of been basically saying “he is currently called by the name of the Word of God”? As for what I hear, he may or may not be called the Word of God at other times than the one John speaks of.  Revelations 19:13 does not tell us. kerwin Christ as been the son of God sins the first of all creation if not Paul is a fake and liar; Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. those words of Paul do not need interpretation unless you want them to be not saying what they really saying , “the word of God ” is also the son of God  and will be forever the WORD OF GOD  ,why is that because the entire creation will be subdued to the son of God and this make Christ the word of God the only line to God the father ,the spoke person ,the communicator to the rest of creation ,the middle party ,between God and all creation. Hi Pierre, Col.1:16-17 is about God, not Jesus. God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org edj prove it , who is the “HE”

Hi Pierre,

You mean in Col.1:17, “He” is YHVH.
YHVH is before all things and by him
all things exist, as HE is The Creator.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 04 2013,14:33)

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 04 2013,14:20) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 04 2013,09:06) Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 04 2013,13:53) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 02 2013,09:46) Mike, Do you mean John might of been basically saying “he is currently called by the name of the Word of God”? As for what I hear, he may or may not be called the Word of God at other times than the one John speaks of.  Revelations 19:13 does not tell us. kerwin Christ as been the son of God sins the first of all creation if not Paul is a fake and liar; Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. those words of Paul do not need interpretation unless you want them to be not saying what they really saying , “the word of God ” is also the son of God  and will be forever the WORD OF GOD  ,why is that because the entire creation will be subdued to the son of God and this make Christ the word of God the only line to God the father ,the spoke person ,the communicator to the rest of creation ,the middle party ,between God and all creation. Hi Pierre, Col.1:16-17 is about God, not Jesus. God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org edj prove it , who is the “HE” Hi Pierre, You mean in Col.1:17, “He” is YHVH. YHVH is before all things and by him all things exist, as HE is The Creator. God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Better read your bible a bit more.

“Thus saith the LORD(YHVH), thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb,
I the LORD(YHVH) that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone;
that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; That frustrateth the tokens of the liars, and maketh
diviners mad; that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish;” (Isaiah 44:24-25)

“The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne(YHVH),
 and worship him(YHVH) that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
 Thou art worthy, O LORD(YHVH), to receive glory and honor and power:
 for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.” (Rev 4:10-11)

When you compare these verses to Col.1:16-17, it is apearent the subject is “GOD The Father”!

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[terraricca]

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 04 2013,09:20)

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 04 2013,09:06) Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 04 2013,13:53) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 02 2013,09:46) Mike, Do you mean John might of been basically saying “he is currently called by the name of the Word of God”? As for what I hear, he may or may not be called the Word of God at other times than the one John speaks of.  Revelations 19:13 does not tell us. kerwin Christ as been the son of God sins the first of all creation if not Paul is a fake and liar; Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. those words of Paul do not need interpretation unless you want them to be not saying what they really saying , “the word of God ” is also the son of God  and will be forever the WORD OF GOD  ,why is that because the entire creation will be subdued to the son of God and this make Christ the word of God the only line to God the father ,the spoke person ,the communicator to the rest of creation ,the middle party ,between God and all creation. Hi Pierre, Col.1:16-17 is about God, not Jesus. God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org edj prove it , who is the “HE”

edj
,

Quote

Hi Pierre, You mean in Col.1:17, “He” is YHVH. YHVH is before all things and by him all things exist, as HE is The Creator. God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

     

are those the scriptures that are shown in the quote of cause NOT ,edj makes is own choice of scriptures ,and always changes the topic ,you are a joker ,not a true pursuer of godly truth ,

your action are not a portrait of true ,godly truth management ,it seems that you find at home more in what is confusion than clear truth

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