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Quote (kerwin @ July 10 2013,01:39) I am tired and hope to cover more later.
Okay. I am anxious to see how this understanding follows through with the scriptures themselves.Quote (2besee @ July 10 2013,16:39) The word is God's speech. God's word. Simple.
You can prat all you like! Lol.
2B,It seems that both you and Kerwin have given up the “Holy Spirit Son of God” doctrine for now. That's at least a step in the right direction.
I want to talk more with you about the Word being God's speech, and how that aligns with some scriptures…….. but I will wait until Kerwin finishes his “demiurge” explanation.
Quote the WORD of God can not be God ; or answer this question ; the one that is ,is different than the one that he is with ;yes or no –
Teraricca,
I have already answered this, possibly several times in the past.You can not say that you are your word 100%, but you can say that your word is a PART of you. Hence why John 1 is worded as it has been.
Mike,
I still believe that the Holy Spirit is the son of God manifested in Jesus Christ.Apart from going off track a bit, I have always said that the word in John 1 is God's spoken word.
But yes, it sound good to look further into it.
We will wait for Kerwin.Quote (2besee @ July 11 2013,05:02) Quote the WORD of God can not be God ; or answer this question ; the one that is ,is different than the one that he is with ;yes or no –
Teraricca,
I have already answered this, possibly several times in the past.You can not say that you are your word 100%, but you can say that your word is a PART of you. Hence why John 1 is worded as it has been.
2beethat is not an answer ,that is what we call an OPINION based on the facts of what you believe it should be in compliance with what your personal believes is ,
each time you make changes to scriptures you are pushing other away and new opinions take place NOT TRUTH
2bee
Quote 1. Those, moreover, who say that the world was formed by angels, or by any other maker of it, contrary to the will of Him who is the Supreme Father, err first of all in this very point, that they maintain that angels formed such and so mighty a creation, contrary to the will of the Most High God. This would imply that angels were more powerful than God; or if not so, that He was either careless, or inferior, or paid no regard to those things which took place among His own possessions, whether they turned out ill or well, so that He might drive away and prevent the one, while He praised and rejoiced over the other. But if one would not ascribe such conduct even to a man of any ability, how much less to God this is untrue ,first it is God's will to share in all things with his creation THIS IS WHAT IT MEANS BE ONE WITH HIM
YOUR COMMENT FROM IRENAEUS IS NOT TRUE HE IGNORED THE LOVE OF GOD AND SEE THINGS IN A MEN'S VIEW
Quote (terraricca @ July 11 2013,04:07) Quote (kerwin @ July 11 2013,02:53)
T,I am pointing out that the Jews had Divine Word doctrines that held the Word was an archangel, but not a person, in the same century that a Jew named John wrote the first chapter of John. You are following a doctrine that twists the Jewish Divine Word doctrines to make the Word a person and so depart from its roots. There is nothing in John's words of chapter 1 that reveals he so drastically departed from the Jewish divine Word doctrines.
kERWINQuote There is nothing in John's words of chapter 1 that reveals he so drastically departed from the Jewish divine Word doctrines. this is not John doing it is Christ doing ;why do you think they have failed to recognized the Christ
when that happen you are going on a roller-coaster driving away from the truth of God ,
does God pay attention to men's culture
if yes this would be new to me
T,John, a Jew, recognized Christ as did other Jews. The church before Cornelius and household's immersion were all Jews or converts to Judaism.
Jesus came proclaiming a new covenant not a new religion so Christ did not teach the Word was a person but he; a Jew, did teach he is the Light even as John, a Jew, claims God is love. John the Baptist, a Jew, gave witness of the Light.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 11 2013,04:53) Quote (kerwin @ July 10 2013,01:39) I am tired and hope to cover more later.
Okay. I am anxious to see how this understanding follows through with the scriptures themselves.
Mike,I hope that you are getting to understand how a Jew of the first century uses words. Even as Philo uses archangel to describe the Word without meaning a person, so can god be used. So considering a Jewish divine Word doctrine is being employed John 1:1-2 describes characteristics of the divine Word, just as Philo does. Even without Isaiah and other passages we should know God's Word is with him and it is figuratively a god. Scripture, from the beginning, teaches “All things were made by the Divine Word; and without the Divine Word was not any thing made that was made.” Scripture teaches us man lives on the Divine Word.
So using Jewish word use of the First Century and Scripture I have covered the first four verses of the John without inventing a religion different from the Jews of the day.
Quote (kerwin @ July 11 2013,10:14) Quote (terraricca @ July 11 2013,04:07) Quote (kerwin @ July 11 2013,02:53) Quote (terraricca @ July 10 2013,13:56) Quote (kerwin @ July 10 2013,13:39) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 10 2013,06:10) Okay Kerwin, I think it's time we hear your understanding from start to finish.
You are now saying the Word is some demiurge other than Jesus. Do you still think this demiurge is the “Holy Spirit Son of God”? Or have you moved on to yet another understanding? (You've gone through so many of them in the last 3 years that it's hard for us to keep up with you.)
Mike,Same understanding, different way of speech.
Philo also called the Word an archangel. An archangel is a god according to you. Despite using terms used these descriptive words while denying the Word was a person. He is teaching a Jewish Divine Word doctrine. John use a Jewish Divine Word doctrine to teach about Jesus. Like with Philo's words it can be misunderstood to mean a person by those that understand the use of a model to portray ideas.
I am tired and hope to cover more later.
KSo you are fallowing Philo,and accept men,s view or is it also what you can take from scriptures as from your personal understanding ,but I have to guess that you have NO personal understanding ,and that you fallow men,s opinion according what at the moment fit or agree with you ,right,
I hope you can answer that question
T,I am pointing out that the Jews had Divine Word doctrines that held the Word was an archangel, but not a person, in the same century that a Jew named John wrote the first chapter of John. You are following a doctrine that twists the Jewish Divine Word doctrines to make the Word a person and so depart from its roots. There is nothing in John's words of chapter 1 that reveals he so drastically departed from the Jewish divine Word doctrines.
kERWINQuote There is nothing in John's words of chapter 1 that reveals he so drastically departed from the Jewish divine Word doctrines. this is not John doing it is Christ doing ;why do you think they have failed to recognized the Christ
when that happen you are going on a roller-coaster driving away from the truth of God ,
does God pay attention to men's culture
if yes this would be new to me
T,John, a Jew, recognized Christ as did other Jews. The church before Cornelius and household's immersion were all Jews or converts to Judaism.
Jesus came proclaiming a new covenant not a new religion so Christ did not teach the Word was a person but he; a Jew, did teach he is the Light even as John, a Jew, claims God is love. John the Baptist, a Jew, gave witness of the Light.
Kthink of what you saying ,most all his disciples where called ,and they also were waiting for the Christ ,according to scriptures ,but did not understand what it going to be of a teaching until time passes ,and then the Pharisees and doctors of the law would not believe what Jesus was teaching ,and try to argue their way against his ,but he showed that they did not know neither Moses nor God his father ,John the baptist was a prophet send to go and preach the coming of the Christ ,all disciples ad to be though to be Christian in faith and not Jewish with tradition that would kill(their privilege to become sons of God) , like it did to so many ,
see gentiles and Jews ad to be learning to become citizen from the kingdom of God and Christ so they are both losing their nationality from the old worldly system that will be destroyed ,
and why would he do that
you would not listen anyway ,“in scriptures he tells you HE HIS FROM ABOVE ,in another place HE TELLS YOU HE CAME DOWN FROM THE FATHER ,at another place HE TELLS YOU THAT HE IS THE ONLY ONE THAT CAME DOWN AND THAT HE WILL RETURN TO HIS FATHER ,this is not counting other witnesses that also so give hints of who he his and were he comes from ,
BUT YOU ARE NOT LISTENING ,YOU FIND ALL THE ARGUMENTS NOT TO LISTEN JUST LIKE A GOOD PHARISEES OR DOCTOR OF THE LAW ;
SO DO NOT BLAME THE SCRIPTURES OF NOT BEING CLEAR AND TRUTHFUL ,THE PROBLEM LAYS WITH THE HEARER,
T,
Both Mike and T8 desire we keep our posts brief which is why I modified mine to remove duplicated context. You responded to the unmodified one first.
You fail to understand that true Christianity is a Jewish sect and not a new religion according to Scripture. The
Saducees were another sect at that time.Acts 5:17
King James Version (KJV)17 Then the high priest rose up, and all they that were with him, (which is the sect of the Sadducees,) and were filled with indignation,
Acts 24:5
King James Version (KJV)5 For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes:
You fail to understand how certain Jews used language in the 1st Century and thereby come up with a religion that is not at heart Judaism.
T,
James 1:17
King James Version (KJV)17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
Did John the Baptist come from above or below?
T,
Quote that is not an answer ,that is what we call an OPINION based on the facts of what you believe it should be in compliance with what your personal believes is You asked me a question, and I answered it. If you don't like my answer, then too bad!
Quote each time you make changes to scriptures…. Each time I make changes to scripture? Is it not YOU who changed John 1:1 to say that the word was a god?
Quote you are pushing other away and new opinions take place NOT TRU I am pushing away other opinions? And letting new opinions take place?
I have shown you that the earliest church agrees with “my” opinion, and one of my sources was canon (shepherd of hermas). And who is the source of my truth? The Holy Spirit leads us – we have no need of a teacher!Teraricca,
Who is the Holy Spirit to you?
Teraricca,
Quote this is untrue ,first it is God's will to share in all things with his creation THIS IS WHAT IT MEANS BE ONE WITH HIM
OUR COMMENT FROM IRENAEUS IS NOT TRUE HE IGNORED THE LOVE OF GOD AND SEE THINGS IN A MEN'S VIEWSo to you, when it says that God alone created the world, you think that is not true and anyone who agrees with scripture including Irenaeus is a liar. Can you show me where it says in scripture that God had help to create the world? You won't find it anywhere. You may see that it is in fact YOU who follows “mens view”!
Teraricca,
Where did you actually LEARN that God created the world through angels etc? Because it's not in scripture, is it?Quote T, John, a Jew, recognized Christ as did other Jews. The church before Cornelius and household's immersion were all Jews or converts to Judaism.
Jesus came proclaiming a new covenant not a new religion so Christ did not teach the Word was a person but he; a Jew, did teach he is the Light even as John, a Jew, claims God is love. John the Baptist, a Jew, gave witness of the Light.
Kerwin that's right and the early church went and taught in the synagogues, as in acts.
Well said!
Quote (kerwin @ July 10 2013,18:23) Quote (jammin @ July 10 2013,12:54) kerwin, it is written
Christ Lived Before the World Was Made1 The Word (Christ) was in the beginning. The Word was with God. The Word was God.
NLV
it is not written that the HS is the word in john 1.1
make your own bible
Jammin,I have not claimed the HS is the Word for a while though it is the way the Word is utilized.
(Christ) is a comment and not what is written.
Try to find a more literal version where it is written and not back-filled or a comment and a manuscript to match.
supported by rev 19.13you are blind boy.
Quote (jammin @ July 11 2013,13:02) Quote (kerwin @ July 10 2013,18:23) Quote (jammin @ July 10 2013,12:54) kerwin, it is written
Christ Lived Before the World Was Made1 The Word (Christ) was in the beginning. The Word was with God. The Word was God.
NLV
it is not written that the HS is the word in john 1.1
make your own bible
Jammin,I have not claimed the HS is the Word for a while though it is the way the Word is utilized.
(Christ) is a comment and not what is written.
Try to find a more literal version where it is written and not back-filled or a comment and a manuscript to match.
supported by rev 19.13you are blind boy.
Jammin,rev 19.13 states a time will come when Jesus will be called by the name of the Word of God not that he was the Word in the beginning.
Your teaching would never be called a sect of Judaism as it invents a new God, one that was not known by Abraham, Mosses, or Jesus.
Jesus came proclaiming a new covenant not a new religion.
Quote (kerwin @ July 11 2013,11:08) T, James 1:17
King James Version (KJV)17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
Did John the Baptist come from above or below?
KI do not know why you are quoting me this scriptures
Quote (2besee @ July 11 2013,11:40) Teraricca, Quote this is untrue ,first it is God's will to share in all things with his creation THIS IS WHAT IT MEANS BE ONE WITH HIM
OUR COMMENT FROM IRENAEUS IS NOT TRUE HE IGNORED THE LOVE OF GOD AND SEE THINGS IN A MEN'S VIEWSo to you, when it says that God alone created the world, you think that is not true and anyone who agrees with scripture including Irenaeus is a liar. Can you show me where it says in scripture that God had help to create the world? You won't find it anywhere. You may see that it is in fact YOU who follows “mens view”!
Teraricca,
Where did you actually LEARN that God created the world through angels etc? Because it's not in scripture, is it?
2beeso you are not a creation of God ,that is what you are saying
Quote (2besee @ July 11 2013,11:29) T, Quote that is not an answer ,that is what we call an OPINION based on the facts of what you believe it should be in compliance with what your personal believes is You asked me a question, and I answered it. If you don't like my answer, then too bad!
Quote each time you make changes to scriptures…. Each time I make changes to scripture? Is it not YOU who changed John 1:1 to say that the word was a god?
Quote you are pushing other away and new opinions take place NOT TRU I am pushing away other opinions? And letting new opinions take place?
I have shown you that the earliest church agrees with “my” opinion, and one of my sources was canon (shepherd of hermas). And who is the source of my truth? The Holy Spirit leads us – we have no need of a teacher!Teraricca,
Who is the Holy Spirit to you?
2beeQuote Who is the Holy Spirit to you? I have a topic only on SPIRITS look into it and see
Quote (kerwin @ July 11 2013,11:08) T, James 1:17
King James Version (KJV)17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
Did John the Baptist come from above or below?
KQuote Did John the Baptist come from above or below? well that is a good question ;HE IS FROM BOTH ;
HIS NATURE IS FROM MEN OF THE FLESH ;BUT HIS MESSAGE IS FROM ABOVE OF THE SPIRIT ,
THIS IS WHY IT IS HARD TO UNDERSTAND IT
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