JOHN 1:1 who is the WORD?

Blocked

How can we agree, Ed, when she posts a scripture that clearly says God created the ages (worlds) through Jesus, but then just pretends those words aren't there?

How can God create the ages (PLURAL) through Jesus if Jesus wasn't there to have those ages created through him?

July 3, 2013 at 11:54 pm#349801

Blocked

Quote (kerwin @ July 02 2013,21:57)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 03 2013,06:57)

You mean like we use the English word “word” in many different symbolic and metaphoric ways?

Using a word metaphorically or symbolically does NOT all of a sudden make that word “magic” or something, Kerwin.

The Greek word “logos” continues to simply mean “word”.

Mike,

Logos has technical meanings in philosophy. Philo used it as the demiurge just like it is used in John 1. They both seemed to have similar audiences to their teachings.

Are we talking about scriptures, Kerwin? Or are we talking about what Greek philosophers thought about things?

Have you really sunk that low now? You have tried anything and everything to avoid the VERY CLEAR teaching in John 1 that the Word of God is Jesus. And now you are seeking out Greek philosophy for your answer?

Kerwin, listen very closely…………. the Greek word “logos”, just like the Greek word “rhema”, simply means WORD. There is no secret, mystical, or magical meaning to the word. It means “word” – end of story.

July 4, 2013 at 12:50 am#349805

Participant

Quote (Jodi Lee @ July 04 2013,04:36)

1 Chronicles 22:10 He shall build a house for My name, and he shall be My son, and I will be his Father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel forever.'

This was the Word of God made flesh in Jesus of Nazareth! This promise of God's was established before man was even created.

Here again we see another example of God's word becoming true, God's promise existing in the flesh.

There was no speaking of God's word by a Son before Jesus of Nazareth, the son of man.

The prophets spoke the word of God, and in their words they spoke of a Son of God to be made, not one that already existed.

Jodi

Quote

1 Chronicles 22:10 He shall build a house for My name, and he shall be My son, and I will be his Father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel forever.'

This was the Word of God made flesh in Jesus of Nazareth! This promise of God's was established before man was even created.

are you not concluding things in your dreams

1Chronicles was written after creation ,and before Christ coming into the flesh ;

AND WITHOUT HESITATION YOU COME ON AND SAY;

This was the Word of God made flesh in Jesus of Nazareth! This promise of God's was established before man was even created.

THAT SCRIPTURE DOES NOT SAY THAT ,

July 4, 2013 at 1:34 am#349806

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 04 2013,05:54)

Quote (kerwin @ July 02 2013,21:57)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 03 2013,06:57)

You mean like we use the English word “word” in many different symbolic and metaphoric ways?

Using a word metaphorically or symbolically does NOT all of a sudden make that word “magic” or something, Kerwin.

The Greek word “logos” continues to simply mean “word”.

Mike,

Logos has technical meanings in philosophy. Philo used it as the demiurge just like it is used in John 1. They both seemed to have similar audiences to their teachings.

Are we talking about scriptures, Kerwin? Or are we talking about what Greek philosophers thought about things?

Mike,

We are speaking about language use in a time when some philosophers were religious teachers. Philo, a Jew, taught about God at the same time John, a Jew, did using much the same language. They both had common roots in a religion that would become known as Christianity.

July 4, 2013 at 4:11 am#349819

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ July 04 2013,07:34)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 04 2013,05:54)

Quote (kerwin @ July 02 2013,21:57)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 03 2013,06:57)

You mean like we use the English word “word” in many different symbolic and metaphoric ways?

Using a word metaphorically or symbolically does NOT all of a sudden make that word “magic” or something, Kerwin.

The Greek word “logos” continues to simply mean “word”.

Mike,

Logos has technical meanings in philosophy. Philo used it as the demiurge just like it is used in John 1. They both seemed to have similar audiences to their teachings.

Are we talking about scriptures, Kerwin? Or are we talking about what Greek philosophers thought about things?

Mike,

if you can not use scriptures for your understanding what the scriptures teaches then you may as good going to the devil and ask him what he think about God and his son ,

either we accept the scriptures as a whole or we throw it out as a whole ,you can not use some and delete the rest ,so what does it going to be Kerwin

July 4, 2013 at 5:11 am#349830

Jodi Lee

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 04 2013,10:40)

How can we agree, Ed, when she posts a scripture that clearly says God created the ages (worlds) through Jesus, but then just pretends those words aren't there?

How can God create the ages (PLURAL) through Jesus if Jesus wasn't there to have those ages created through him?

Scripture says that God created the worlds through and for JESUS, not a pre-existing son, but JESUS, the MAN that was PERFECTED through suffering and because of that perfecting, he was given the GLORY of eternal life being raised from the dead with a FLESH and BONES body.

There existed NO PERFECT Son before Jesus of NAZARETH, to which ANY glory existed.

The scriptures never speak of a person, what they were like body or mind that existed with God before the world was created. The scriptures are always referring to Jesus of Nazareth, the man that died on the cross who was resurrected a man.

We are fitting God's promise that existed before time began with the scriptures speaking of Jesus of Nazareth. We are tying the scriptures together, whereas pre-existent believers are inventing a new person and a new doctrine changing the glory of Christ and man as well as the truth of God's Word. IMO

July 4, 2013 at 5:22 am#349832

Jodi Lee

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ July 04 2013,11:50)

Quote (Jodi Lee @ July 04 2013,04:36)

1 Chronicles 22:10 He shall build a house for My name, and he shall be My son, and I will be his Father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel forever.'

This was the Word of God made flesh in Jesus of Nazareth! This promise of God's was established before man was even created.

Here again we see another example of God's word becoming true, God's promise existing in the flesh.

There was no speaking of God's word by a Son before Jesus of Nazareth, the son of man.

The prophets spoke the word of God, and in their words they spoke of a Son of God to be made, not one that already existed.

Jodi

Quote

1 Chronicles 22:10 He shall build a house for My name, and he shall be My son, and I will be his Father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel forever.'

This was the Word of God made flesh in Jesus of Nazareth! This promise of God's was established before man was even created.

are you not concluding things in your dreams

1Chronicles was written after creation ,and before Christ coming into the flesh ;

AND WITHOUT HESITATION YOU COME ON AND SAY;

This was the Word of God made flesh in Jesus of Nazareth! This promise of God's was established before man was even created.

THAT SCRIPTURE DOES NOT SAY THAT ,

Sorry, I should have posted these scriptures to make it more clear.

Titus 1:2
in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,

2 Timothy 1:9
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

The word CHRIST does not represent a pre-existing being it represents a MAN that was MADE perfect through the anointing of YHWH's Set Apart Spirit.

Simple Points:

The OT testament makes it clear that a Son was to be created in a MAN, and that a Son did not yet exist.

The NT makes it clear that the MAN Jesus existed in a plan before time began to become anointed with God's Spirit.

July 4, 2013 at 12:46 pm#349838

Participant

Quote (Jodi Lee @ July 04 2013,11:22)

Quote (terraricca @ July 04 2013,11:50)

Quote (Jodi Lee @ July 04 2013,04:36)

1 Chronicles 22:10 He shall build a house for My name, and he shall be My son, and I will be his Father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel forever.'

This was the Word of God made flesh in Jesus of Nazareth! This promise of God's was established before man was even created.

Here again we see another example of God's word becoming true, God's promise existing in the flesh.

There was no speaking of God's word by a Son before Jesus of Nazareth, the son of man.

The prophets spoke the word of God, and in their words they spoke of a Son of God to be made, not one that already existed.

Jodi

Quote

1 Chronicles 22:10 He shall build a house for My name, and he shall be My son, and I will be his Father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel forever.'

This was the Word of God made flesh in Jesus of Nazareth! This promise of God's was established before man was even created.

are you not concluding things in your dreams

1Chronicles was written after creation ,and before Christ coming into the flesh ;

AND WITHOUT HESITATION YOU COME ON AND SAY;

This was the Word of God made flesh in Jesus of Nazareth! This promise of God's was established before man was even created.

THAT SCRIPTURE DOES NOT SAY THAT ,

Sorry, I should have posted these scriptures to make it more clear.

Titus 1:2
in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,

2 Timothy 1:9
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

The word CHRIST does not represent a pre-existing being it represents a MAN that was MADE perfect through the anointing of YHWH's Set Apart Spirit.

Simple Points:

The OT testament makes it clear that a Son was to be created in a MAN, and that a Son did not yet exist.

The NT makes it clear that the MAN Jesus existed in a plan before time began to become anointed with God's Spirit.

Jodi

Titus 1:2
in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,

this verse is more related to the tree of life ,that God planted in the garden of Eden ,and that after Adam sin God prevented them both to eat from ;but God as now used Christ his own created son to come down and take a form of flesh this is the promise

2 Timothy 1:9
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

Paul talks about God and how he as send his son Christ ;

2Ti 1:9 who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,
2Ti 1:10 but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.
2Ti 1:11 And of this gospel I was appointed a herald and an apostle and a teacher.
2Ti 1:12 That is why I am suffering as I am. Yet I am not ashamed, because I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him for that day.

so what Adam did was not HOLINESS BUT CORRUPTION ,this time God calls us again through HOLINESS THROUGH THE GOSPEL ,

and John 1;1-34 is all about THE WORD ” BEING CHRIST “

Lk 1:38 “I am the Lord’s servant,” Mary answered. “May it be to me as you have said.” Then the angel left her

July 4, 2013 at 4:11 pm#349844

Blocked

Quote (kerwin @ July 03 2013,19:34)

Mike,

Okay Kerwin…………….

dem·i·urge

(in the Gnostic and certain other systems) a supernatural being imagined as creating or fashioning the world in subordination to the Supreme Being……….

Are you saying that the Apostle John held Gnostic beliefs?

And read the definition above. If we change “creating the world in subordination to the Supreme Being” to “the world was created BY that Supreme Being THROUGH him”, doesn't that definition describe Jesus?

He was, after all, a supernatural being who worked as the craftsman in subordination to the Supreme Being before he was made flesh, wore sandals that John was not worthy to untie, and dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son.

Every time you reach into deeper and darker realms to avoid the common sense conclusion that the Word in John 1 is Jesus (just like it is Jesus in Rev 19:13 – written by the same author), you end up giving us even more support.

But remember, in order to claim that John thought of the Word as a demiurge, you must also claim that John was in bed with the Gnostics. Are you willing to go that far? And even if you are, remember that the definition of “demiurge” basically describes a pre-existent Jesus.

July 4, 2013 at 4:17 pm#349845

Blocked

Quote (Jodi Lee @ July 03 2013,23:11)

Scripture says that God created the worlds through and for JESUS, not a pre-existing son, but JESUS……….

Do you see how your bolded words are simply out of place in the rest of the statement, Jodi?

You agree that God created the ages (worlds) through Jesus, but then pretend that God could have created through someone who wasn't even there to be created through.

Why would a person pretend such a thing, if not for personal reasons? And what's more, why would you guys hold me in contempt for BELIEVING the common sense meaning of “God created the worlds through Jesus”?

July 4, 2013 at 4:21 pm#349847

Blocked

Quote (Jodi Lee @ July 03 2013,23:22)

The OT testament makes it clear that a Son was to be created in a MAN, and that a Son did not yet exist.

Proverbs 30:4
Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Whose hands have gathered up the wind? Who has wrapped up the waters in a cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is the name of his son? Surely you know!

Who is this “son”?

July 4, 2013 at 6:51 pm#349857

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 04 2013,22:11)

Quote (kerwin @ July 03 2013,19:34)

Mike,

Okay Kerwin…………….

dem·i·urge

(in the Gnostic and certain other systems) a supernatural being imagined as creating or fashioning the world in subordination to the Supreme Being……….

Are you saying that the Apostle John held Gnostic beliefs?

Mike,

Philo used it more in the sense that Plato did though he made clear it was not a person.

July 4, 2013 at 7:02 pm#349859

Blocked

Kerwin,

Did the demiurge of Philo's understanding become flesh, and dwell as a flesh man on earth, where he had the glory of God's only begotten Son?

Did he wear sandals? Was John the Baptist sent to prepare the way for, and testify about, Philo's demiurge?

(I like the way you are so gung ho to point out that John said Jesus has come in the flesh as a way to rebuke the Gnostics, but then ignore the fact that you are right now implying John held certain Gnostic beliefs. )

July 4, 2013 at 10:03 pm#349866

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 05 2013,01:02)

Kerwin,

Did the demiurge of Philo's understanding become flesh, and dwell as a flesh man on earth, where he had the glory of God's only begotten Son?

Did he wear sandals? Was John the Baptist sent to prepare the way for, and testify about, Philo's demiurge?

Mike,

Gnostics took the term demiurge and used it for their own purposes but Plato used it previously. In non-theological use the demiurge was a judge of some Greek city states. Demiurge is the mediator between Jehovah and man and the craftsman.

Philo attributes many of the attributes of Jesus as attributes of the Word.

July 5, 2013 at 1:32 am#349875

Blocked

Then why don't you just cut to the chase and admit the “demiurge” IS Jesus?

You are going WAY out of your way to invent a DIFFERENT supernatural being, through whom all things were created, and who is called “the Word”………… when you have the perfect specimen, Jesus, staring you right in the face.

He IS called “the Word”, right? And scripture DOES say all things were created through him, right? So now all you have to do is BELIEVE JESUS when he says, “I came down from heaven to do the will of Him who sent me”.

Are you able to do that, Kerwin? Or will you stick with a different demiurge who you sometimes like to call “the Holy Spirit Son of God”?

July 5, 2013 at 6:01 pm#349916

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 05 2013,07:32)

Then why don't you just cut to the chase and admit the “demiurge” IS Jesus?

Are you able to do that, Kerwin? Or will you stick with a different demiurge who you sometimes like to call “the Holy Spirit Son of God”?

Mike,

The demiurge of Philo is a being in the sense it exist not in the sense of being a living creature. He concept is the logos is Jehovah's creative principle and is either believed to have influenced John's writings or come from a common source.

Quote

Philo considers these divine powers in their totality also, treating them as a single independent being, which he designates “Logos.” This name, which he borrowed from Greek philosophy, was first used by Heraclitus and then adopted by the Stoics. Philo's conception of the Logos is influenced by both of these schools. From Heraclitus he borrowed the conception of the “dividing Logos” (λόγος τομεύς), which calls the various objects into existence by the combination of contrasts (“Quis Rerum Divinarum Heres Sit,” § 43 ), and from Stoicism, the characterization of the Logos as the active and vivifying power. But Philo borrowed also Platonic elements in designating the Logos as the “idea of ideas” and the “archetypal idea” (“De Migratione Abrahami,” § 18 ; “De Specialibus Legibus,” § 36 [ii. 333]). There are, in addition, Biblical elements: there are Biblical passages in which the word of Yhwh is regarded as a power acting independently and existing by itself, as Isa. lv. 11 (comp. Matt. x. 13; Prov. xxx. 4); these ideas were further developed by later Judaism in the doctrines of the Divine Word creating the world, the divine throne-chariot and its cherub, the divine splendor and its shekinah, and the name of God as well as the names of the angels; and Philo borrowed from all these in elaborating his doctrine of the Logos. He calls the Logos the “archangel of many names,” “taxiarch” (corps-commander), the “name of God,” also the “heavenly Adam” (comp. “De Confusione Linguarum,” § 11 ), the “man, the word of the eternal God.” The Logos is also designated as “high priest,” in reference to the exalted position which the high priest occupied after the Exile as the real center of the Jewish state. The Logos, like the high priest, is the expiator of sins, and the mediator and advocate for men: ἱκέτης (“Quis Rerum Divinarum Heres Sit,” § 42 , and παράκλητος (“De Vita Mosis,” iii. 14 [ii. 155]). From Alexandrian theology Philo borrowed the idea of wisdom as the mediator; he thereby somewhat confused his doctrine of the Logos, regarding wisdom as the higher principle from which the Logos proceeds, and again coordinating it with the latter.

Philos' logos

I didn't invent it, I am merely reporting on it.

July 6, 2013 at 4:34 am#349957

jammin

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ July 04 2013,01:25)

Quote (jammin @ July 03 2013,16:04)

kerwin and ed

i cant imagine why you people dont want to believe what the bible actually says.
do you want to spend your second life in hell?

Hi Jammin,

Both me and Kerwin do believe what the bible actually says.
What we don't believe is: man's alterations to “The Word” of God.
Man's alterations hold no Authority over anyone – EXCEPT (maybe) YOU.

Jesus has promised all believers – they would be resurrected on “The Last day”.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

altering words is your masterpiece.
you want people to believe what is not written in the bible. you call that truth?
i call that insanity.

it is written that Christ is the word in john 1.1 rev 19.13
.

July 6, 2013 at 5:09 am#349962