JOHN 1:1 who is the WORD?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 18 2008,15:10)

Hi Nick, Surely you have something more than that to offer. Are angels referred to AS Yahweh ever? Can you offer any unambiguous scripture to support your opinion that an angel is referred to as Yahweh? A being referred to as Yahweh is not the same as a being merely representing Yahweh. LU

See for yourself Lightenup.

Exodus 3:1-14
1 Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian, and he led the flock to the far side of the desert and came to Horeb, the mountain of God.
2 There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up.
3 So Moses thought, “I will go over and see this strange sight-why the bush does not burn up.”
4 When the LORD saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, “Moses! Moses!” And Moses said, “Here I am.”
5 “Do not come any closer,” God said. “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.”
6 Then he said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God……………………….

13 Moses said to God, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is his name?' Then what shall I tell them?”
14 God said to Moses, “I am who I am . This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' ”  ………………

Exodus 4:1-17
1 Moses answered, “What if they do not believe me or listen to me and say, 'The LORD did not appear to you'?” ………………

Now look at Acts 7:30
“After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.

The word angel literally means messenger.

[Lightenup]

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 18 2008,05:47)

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 18 2008,15:10) Hi Nick, Surely you have something more than that to offer. Are angels referred to AS Yahweh ever? Can you offer any unambiguous scripture to support your opinion that an angel is referred to as Yahweh? A being referred to as Yahweh is not the same as a being merely representing Yahweh. LU See for yourself Lightenup. Exodus 3:1-14 1 Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian, and he led the flock to the far side of the desert and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up. 3 So Moses thought, “I will go over and see this strange sight-why the bush does not burn up.” 4 When the LORD saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, “Moses! Moses!” And Moses said, “Here I am.” 5 “Do not come any closer,” God said. “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.” 6 Then he said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God………………………. 13 Moses said to God, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is his name?' Then what shall I tell them?” 14 God said to Moses, “I am who I am . This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' ”  ……………… Exodus 4:1-17 1 Moses answered, “What if they do not believe me or listen to me and say, 'The LORD did not appear to you'?” ……………… Now look at Acts 7:30 “After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai. The word angel literally means messenger.

Hi t8,
Thanks for your scripture. After a close look at this passage it seems that the LORD appeared to Abraham through an angel of the LORD as a burning bush. It fails to say that the angel spoke, it only says that God called to him.

There are other scriptures that claim that the angel of the LORD said the words of the LORD. It doesn't spell that out in the burning bush passage though, as far as I can see.

Anyway, in Gen 18, I haven't found anywhere in the OT or the NT that it says the third “man” that stood before Abraham which scripture refers to as YAHWEH is an angel although we are told that of the other two “men” were angels. Note, the other two “men” aren't referred to as Yahweh (LORD), just the third “man.”

Also, in Exodus 6:3 and in the other passages that I mentioned regarding the LORD (Yahweh) making Himself known to Isaac and Jacob as LORD, no where does it say that it is an angel speaking to Isaac or Jacob in those particular instances, maybe in others but not those. You can see my recent posts for those references.

LU

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
GOD is not a man.

[Lightenup]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 18 2008,08:21)

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 18 2008,05:47) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 18 2008,15:10) Hi Nick, Surely you have something more than that to offer. Are angels referred to AS Yahweh ever? Can you offer any unambiguous scripture to support your opinion that an angel is referred to as Yahweh? A being referred to as Yahweh is not the same as a being merely representing Yahweh. LU See for yourself Lightenup. Exodus 3:1-14 1 Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian, and he led the flock to the far side of the desert and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up. 3 So Moses thought, “I will go over and see this strange sight-why the bush does not burn up.” 4 When the LORD saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, “Moses! Moses!” And Moses said, “Here I am.” 5 “Do not come any closer,” God said. “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.” 6 Then he said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God………………………. 13 Moses said to God, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is his name?' Then what shall I tell them?” 14 God said to Moses, “I am who I am . This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' ”  ……………… Exodus 4:1-17 1 Moses answered, “What if they do not believe me or listen to me and say, 'The LORD did not appear to you'?” ……………… Now look at Acts 7:30 “After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai. The word angel literally means messenger. Hi t8, Thanks for your scripture.  After a close look at this passage it seems that the LORD appeared to Abraham through an angel of the LORD as a burning bush.  It fails to say that the angel spoke, it only says that God called to him. There are other scriptures that claim that the angel of the LORD said the words of the LORD.  It doesn't spell that out in the burning bush passage though, as far as I can see. Anyway, in Gen 18, I haven't found anywhere in the OT or the NT that it says the third “man” that stood before Abraham which scripture refers to as YAHWEH is an angel although we are told that of the other two “men” were angels.  Note, the other two “men” aren't referred to as Yahweh (LORD), just the third “man.” Also, in Exodus 6:3 and in the other passages that I mentioned regarding the LORD (Yahweh) making Himself known to Isaac and Jacob as LORD, no where does it say that it is an angel speaking to Isaac or Jacob in those particular instances, maybe in others but not those.  You can see my recent posts for those references. LU

Hi t8,
After further investigation, I have discovered that it was said that the angel was speaking with Moses on Mt. Sinai. In the Exodus 3 account of the flaming bush, in speaks of the mountain as Mt. Horeb. Come to find out, Mt. Horeb and Mt. Sinai are probably the same mountain. Here is the verse that says the angel was speaking to Moses on Mt. Sinai. So this probably refers to the flaming bush story unless there are other times that an angel spoke to Moses on this mountain, I'm still looking.

Acts 7:38
38 “This is the one who was in the congregation in the wilderness together with the angel who was speaking to him on Mount Sinai
NASU

I still haven't found anything that tells me that the other instances of which I mentioned where the LORD spoke to Isaac and Jacob were said to be merely angels who were referred to as “LORD”. Maybe someone can show me.

LU

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
Scripture says this of our God.
1 Kings 8:27
But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

2 Chronicles 6:18
But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house which I have built!

But you seem to think God can be contained within a tiny man.
Beware making your God too small.

[Lightenup]

Nick,
I make a distinction between the Most High God and the Son who is our Great God and Savior in 2 Peter 1:1. I think that our Great God and Savior, Jesus Christ can be in appearance as a man, but not the Most High God.
LU

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
In appearance as a man?
He was a man.

Acts2
22Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Heb 2
16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

But before his birth he is not said to have ever been a man on earth.

[Lightenup]

Hi Nick,
Yes, He was a man and walked among men since Mary. However, He existed before that as God's Holy One, the First and the Last who founded the earth and spread out the heavens and acted as His Father's messenger and whatever else.
LU

[Not3in1]

Before his birth Jesus is never said to have been alive in heaven either, Nick.

It is only eluded to or left up to interpretation, and as we know there are a ton of them out there.

Such knowledge, if it were true, would not be left to speculation.

IMO,
Mandy

[Not3in1]

Hi Kathi,
By the way, I'm still working on our off-line study. It's just going slow because of our schedule these days….

[Lightenup]

Hi Mandy,
I was wanted to tell youthe same thing:D
Soon hopefully,
Love,K

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 18 2008,07:26)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 16 2008,18:25) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 17 2008,06:54) Hi WJ, Thanks!  The Son was given the name of His Father, that does not make them equal or co-eternal.  The Son has a mighty role indeed in the OT I think. LU Hi LU Can you give me a scripture that says the Father gave Yeshua his name “YHWH”? Yeshua is spoken of as YHWH which is a name reserved for God alone! Here is an excellent debate on Zech 14 concerning Yeshua being YHWH. Click here! WJ Hi WJ, This is something for you to consider in response to your question to me. This tells us that Jesus has come in His Father's name: John 5:43-45 43 “I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, you will receive him.  44 “How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God? This tells us that Jesus's Father's name was given to Him (Jesus). John 17:12 12 “While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; NASU LU

Hi LU

Yes, he came in his Fathers name because the name YHWH as you have shown is not exclusive to the Father.

Yeshua also says…

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in “the name” of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Matt 28:19

The “name” here is singular and yet Yeshua says “the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:”, all with the definite article.

Yet we know that the apostles baptised in the name of Yeshua which means “YHWH is salvation”.

YHWH is the tetragammation of the name of God. In the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Torah, the Tetragammation was translated “Lord” or Greek “Kurios” found about 748 times in the NT almost exclusively applying to Yeshua.

Yeshua also said…
And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. Matt 18:5

For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. Matt 18:10

For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. Matt 24:5

But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. Mark 9:39

For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward. Mark 9:41

And these signs shall follow them that believe;
In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; Mark 16:17

And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. John 14:13

If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. John 14:14

But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. John 14:26

Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. John 15:16

The scripture you quote seems to have some ambiguity.

John 17:12
King James Bible
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

American King James Version
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in your name: those that you gave me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

International Standard Version (©2008)
While I was with them, I protected them by the authority that you gave me. I guarded them, and not one of them became lost except the one who was destined for destruction, so that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

Douay-Rheims Bible
While I was with them, I kept them in thy name. Those whom thou gavest me have I kept; and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition, that the scripture may be fulfilled.

Darby Bible Translation
When I was with them I kept them in thy name; those thou hast given me I have guarded, and not one of them has perished, but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Webster's Bible Translation
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest to me I have kept, and none of them is lost but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

World English Bible
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in your name. Those whom you have given me I have kept. None of them is lost, except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

Young's Literal Translation
when I was with them in the world, I was keeping them in Thy name; those whom Thou hast given to me I did guard, and none of them was destroyed, except the son of the destruction, that the Writing may be fulfilled

But even if what you say is true, it would still be unclear what name the Father gave Yeshua or when, since the Father has many names.

And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, “God with us“. Matt 1:23

He shall save his people from their sins! Who? Yeshua (YHWH is salvation), “God with us”.

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and “his name shall be called” Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Isa 9:6

And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH (YHWH) was I not known to them. Exd 6:3

The contention is in whether the name YHWH is exclusive to the m
ost high God.

I believe it is.

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 18 2008,07:54)

Hi again WJ, I know that you realize that Jesus was called Yahweh in the OT but I believe His is not the only one. I believe that I can show that two are called Yahweh. Here we have Yahweh (LORD) having a chat with Moses and telling him that He did not make His name “Yahweh” (LORD) known to Abe, Is, or Jac: Ex 6:2-3 2 God also said to Moses, “I am the LORD (Yahweh). 3 I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as God Almighty, but by my name the LORD (Yahweh) I did not make myself known to them. NIV Here we have the LORD (Yahweh) speaking to Isaac and Isaac called upon the name of the “LORD” (Yahweh) so obviously this particular LORD did make that name known to Isaac: Gen 26:23-25 24 The LORD (Yahweh) appeared to him the same night and said, ” I am the God of your father Abraham; Do not fear, for I am with you. I will bless you, and multiply your descendants, For the sake of My servant Abraham.” 25 So he built an altar there and called upon the name of the LORD (Yahweh), and pitched his tent there; and there Isaac's servants dug a well. NASU In this passage, the LORD is speaking to Jacob in a dream as “LORD” (Yahweh): Gen 28:12-17 13 And behold, the LORD (Yahweh) stood above it and said, “I am the LORD (Yahweh), the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie, I will give it to you and to your descendants. 14 “Your descendants will also be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out to the west and to the east and to the north and to the south; and in you and in your descendants shall all the families of the earth be blessed. 15 “Behold, I am with you and will keep you wherever you go, and will bring you back to this land; for I will not leave you until I have done what I have promised you.” 16 Then Jacob awoke from his sleep and said, ” Surely the LORD is in this place, and I did not know it.” 17 He was afraid and said, ” How awesome is this place! This is none other than the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven.” NASU Yahweh does not lie.  I figure there are two that are called that name.  One, the Most High God and the other, His Son that represents Him on earth who was given the name of His Father. I believe that the “name” that was the Father's and that was “given” Him (Jesus) was the name “Yahweh” (LORD). Remember, the three “men” who came to Abraham?  One was referred to as LORD (Yahweh).  Since Jesus states that no man has seen the Father except the Son, the one referred to as “LORD” (Yahweh) in the Abraham story could not have been the Father Yahweh: John 6:46 46 “Not that any man has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father. NAS Gen 18:1-2 Gen 18:1 Now the LORD (Yahweh) appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. 2 And when he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the earth NAS In the Genesis passage, two of the “men” were made known to be angels if you keep reading the chapter and the other was Yahweh who Abraham was standing before. Gen 18:22 22 Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham was still standing before the LORD (Yahweh). NAS LU

Hi LU

That is good and I agree.

Except….

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 18 2008,07:54)

I believe that the “name” that was the Father's and that was “given” Him (Jesus) was the name “Yahweh” (LORD).

There is no indication by Isaac that the “YHWH” he refered to was not God.

There is no scripture both old and new that says “YHWH” gave his name “YHWH” to another.

Isa 1:18 explains this very well in the debate…

Yeshua is explicitly called YHWH on twelve separate occasions in Zechariah 14; verses 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 12, 13, 16, 17, 18, 20 and  21. Would the Bible ascribe the exclusively divine name to someone who is not YHWH?? I think not! That would be grossly misleading, to say the least. On this point it may be argued by t8 that Yeshua is assigned this name on account of His role as YHWH’s agent, i.e. YHWH, Yeshua’s Father, is ruling through Him therefore it is rightful that he bears His Father’s name. However this can be debunked by appealing to the complete absence of a parallel example. Nowhere else in scripture can we find an instance where an agent of YHWH is bestowed the name of YHWH (or any name for that matter) because he/she is acting on His behalf. Moses and Abraham often acted as YHWH’s agent, yet they are certainly never described as YHWH. This is also true of the NT believers, Paul and Peter were used by God but they are nowhere called God in the NT. Taken to a further extreme, any spirit-filled believer has at some time been ‘used’ by God and yet it’s more than inappropriate for us to be called YHWH, everyone knows this. What’s more, any notion that the law of agency applies to Yeshua in Zech 14 can be utterly dispelled upon reading verse 16 & 17:

Click here for source!

The scripture you quote in John 17:12 is ambiguous and in fact Isa 9:6 and Matt 1:23 supports that Yeshua was given other names post incarnation.

Yeshua is God, sharing the same glory and essence of the Father. This is also supported by the Apostles who by the Holy Spirit penned the words that by Yeshua all things were made and without him was not anything made that was made.

The Apostles knew the Hebrew scriptures that say “YHWH” alone created all things.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God. John 1:1 NET

WJ

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,

You say

“Yes, he came in his Fathers name because the name YHWH as you have shown is not exclusive to the Father.”

So which of the many to whom you seem to ascribe the Name was the one who spoke with Abraham saying I AM WHO AM and how do you reach your conclusion?

[Lightenup]

Hi WJ,

Quote

The contention is in whether the name YHWH is exclusive to the most high God.

Thank you for your time given me once again. You are right in that I am not contending that Jesus was called Yahweh. I believe He was. I still believe that it was a name given Him and I believe that Jesus is the only begotten God. Therefore, it would be right for Isaac to think that he was speaking with God. I don't think that it would have made that much of a difference whether Isaac was speaking to Yahweh the Son, or Yahweh the Father, since the Son perfectly represents the Father's will and intentions and delivers His Father's word.

I agree that the contention is whether the name is only for the “most high God.” Of course, you know that I believe that the Son had a beginning before creation and didn't eternally exist and that the term “firstborn” is literal and therefore He didn't have the particular glory of always existing that His Father had. That particular glory was the Father's alone which, if for no other distinction from the Son would make Him alone (the Father) the Most High God. I do not find that title given to the Son throughout scriptures. Obviously the Son shared glory with the Father in the beginning but not every glory and not this particular one.

Now, I suspect that you are going to push the “polytheism” button soon so I will say a few words about that. I have been teaching my daughter about ancient world history and the Egyptians and others had a bunch of “gods” that they worshiped and made idols of. There was the god of the moon, the god of the dead, the god of the sun, etc. That was polytheism certainly. There was Ra who was considered the god of the sun. 'He was the chief god; other gods were part of his family. Osiris was the god who judged the dead and decided whether they had been good or bad. Isis was Osiris's wife, and mother of Horus, who was the god of the sky.” (from “Story of the World”). Pharoah's were also considered gods.

I believe the Father is the Most High God and no need for another for He is the God of everything good, the sun, the moon, the earth, the sky, the rain, man, animals etc. As the Most High God He calls the shots. If He wanted a Son, an actual Son come from His very being (womb as I suppose) than that would be possible which would make that Son His Firstborn. If instead, He wanted a Jack-in-the-box to come from His very being, I believe that would have to be created and not come in a reproductive way because the Most High God is not a Jack-in-the-box and kind begats the same kind, the Son is the only begotten God. He is not a God over an area (like the moon) while His Father is the Great God over another area(like the sun). That is one reason I do not equate what I believe as polytheism. The Son is God as a perfect representative of His Father and has been given things from His Father. The Son is not God of something seperate that His Father isn't ultimately God over also. All things that He is head over have been given Him. The Father was not given anything but instead was always over all and always will be and everything was from Him. There is one true God, the Father and He had a Son, the perfect begotten God.

A question for you, what do you believe the role of the Father was during creation?

LU

[gollamudi]

Hi Sis Kathi,
I think your definition of polytheism is diffrent from the general definition. There is only One God in this whole universe who is the source of all illumination and Jesus is not another God but the lamp that was illuminated by God his Father. Jesus was certainly human being that reflected the full divinity in him. He is the Theophany of the invisible God but not any begotten God.
Please know for sure we can not create many Gods in Christianity or Judaism.

Thanks and love to you
Adam

[Lightenup]

Hello Gollamudi,

Yes, I understand that you can't see my perspective. Be that as it is. I would really like to know your thoughts after a good long look at these verses, pay particular attention to what the speaker says about Himself in v. 16:

Who would you say is the “I” in this passage:

Isa 48:12-16

12 “Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called;
I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.
13 “Surely My hand founded the earth,
And My right hand spread out the heavens;
When I call to them, they stand together.
14 ” Assemble, all of you, and listen!
Who among them has declared these things?
The LORD loves him; he will carry out His good pleasure on Babylon,
And His arm will be against the Chaldeans.
15 “I, even I, have spoken; indeed I have called him,
I have brought him, and He will make his ways successful.
16 ” Come near to Me, listen to this:
From the first I have not spoken in secret,
From the time it took place, I was there.
And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit.”
NASU

You can also see here in Hebrews that the Son laid the foundation of the earth and the heavens are the works of the Son's hands.

Heb 1:8-10

8 But of the Son He says…….

10 “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
NASU

The First and the Last is also spoken of here:
Rev 1:17-19

17 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, ” Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.
NASU

Notice that the one who says that “I am the first and the last” was dead at one point.

Jesus is the “first and the last”. In Is 48:12-13 it says that the “first and the last” spread out the heavens with His right hand and also that His hand founded the earth.

And just to show you that the “first and the last” here is not God the Father, we see in Is 48:16 that the Lord God has sent the first and the last with His spirit. Also, the first and the last was there from the first and He also spoke. Sounds like a living heavenly being and definetly not a plan. A plan cannot spread out the heavens with its right hand nor does a plan speak. It couldn't be a sperm in the loins of the Father either. The Son was alive and active in the creation process.

I hope you can understand this.

God bless,
LU

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
Isa 48:12-16

12 “Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called;
I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.
13 “Surely My hand founded the earth,
And My right hand spread out the heavens;
When I call to them, they stand together.
14 ” Assemble, all of you, and listen!
Who among them has declared these things?
The LORD loves him; he will carry out His good pleasure on Babylon,
And His arm will be against the Chaldeans.
15 “I, even I, have spoken; indeed I have called him,
I have brought him, and He will make his ways successful.
16 ” Come near to Me, listen to this:
From the first I have not spoken in secret,
From the time it took place, I was there.
And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit.”

Why would you apply the last verse to include all that went before it?

Why not also include the rest of Is 48
'Isaiah 48
1Hear ye this, O house of Jacob, which are called by the name of Israel, and are come forth out of the waters of Judah, which swear by the name of the LORD, and make mention of the God of Israel, but not in truth, nor in righteousness.

2For they call themselves of the holy city, and stay themselves upon the God of Israel; The LORD of hosts is his name.

3I have declared the former things from the beginning; and they went forth out of my mouth, and I shewed them; I did them suddenly, and they came to pass.

4Because I knew that thou art obstinate, and thy neck is an iron sinew, and thy brow brass;

5I have even from the beginning declared it to thee; before it came to pass I shewed it thee: lest thou shouldest say, Mine idol hath done them, and my graven image, and my molten image, hath commanded them.

6Thou hast heard, see all this; and will not ye declare it? I have shewed thee new things from this time, even hidden things, and thou didst not know them.

7They are created now, and not from the beginning; even before the day when thou heardest them not; lest thou shouldest say, Behold, I knew them.

8Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.

9For my name's sake will I defer mine anger, and for my praise will I refrain for thee, that I cut thee not off.

10Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.

11For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another. '

Or why not the rest of Isaiah
or the resst of the OT?

[Lightenup]

Nick,
To not overwhelm the reader. I have included enough to show an important message.
LU

[gollamudi]

Hi Sis Kathi,
Thanks for your good response to my post. In fact I am with brother Nick here. No where in the O.T Jesus' activities are known to us unless we take the verses out of context. Jesus himself never claimed that he was the creator God or he accompanied God during creation process. God alone created heavens and earth by His own word and Spirit as per Ps 33:6.
“By the LORD'S word the heavens were made; by the breath of his mouth all their host”.

Now God's word has become Jesus as the living word of God. This doesn't prove Jesus' preexistence as a person involving himself in the creation process. God is the sole creator and there was no one else besides Him as per Is 44:
6 “Thus says the LORD, Israel's King and redeemer, the LORD of hosts: I am the first and I am the last; there is no God but me.
7 Who is like me? Let him stand up and speak, make it evident, and confront me with it. Who of old announced future events? Let them foretell to us the things to come.
8 Fear not, be not troubled: did I not announce and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses! Is there a God or any Rock besides me?

Is 44:24
“Thus says the LORD, your redeemer, who formed you from the womb: I am the LORD, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens; when I spread out the earth, who was with me? “

Is 45:

5 I am the LORD and there is no other, there is no God besides me. It is I who arm you, though you know me not,
6 so that toward the rising and the setting of the sun men may know that there is none besides me. I am the LORD, there is no other;

11 Thus says the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, his maker: You question me about my children, or prescribe the work of my hands for me!
12 It was I who made the earth and created mankind upon it; It was my hands that stretched out the heavens; I gave the order to all their host.
18 For thus says the LORD, The creator of the heavens, who is God, The designer and maker of the earth who established it, Not creating it to be a waste, but designing it to be lived in: I am the LORD, and there is no other.

All those verses repeatedly utter that God alone was the sole creator and there was no one else besiedes Him. Do we make God a lier by saying that Jesus was preexisting prior to his birth on this earth and helped God in the creation process ?

Please think over even in his glorified status, Jesus is not another God but a glorified man in the image of the Only true God. Image and original are not same always. They are two different beings one is God and the other is human son of God to whom God has given the authority even to all those believe in His name that is 'Jesus'.

Thanks and love to you
Adam

[Author]

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