JOHN 1:1 who is the WORD?

[Lightenup]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 04 2008,16:47)

Hi LU, You say “I believe that I can show that two are called Yahweh.” This is a favourite play of trinitarians desperate to amalgamate the Father with His Son. Jesus never said he had visited earth before so we should not speak for him.

Hi Nick and Mandy,
Well, you know that I am not a trinitarian, right? You know that I think there is one that is the Most High God and that He is our one true God, right? Do you also know that I believe that His Son is different than Him and not equal and not eternal either. Right?

Don't be worried, I am not leading you down trinity road here.
It seems likely to me that Exodus 6:3 has a clue for us though. How do you explain that Jacob was told from God that He who was speaking to Him was the LORD in Gen 28:13 but the speaker says to Moses in Ex 6:2-3 “I am the LORD. 3 I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as God Almighty, but by my name the LORD I did not make myself known to them.
(from New International Version)

Isn't it possible that there are two represented by the name LORD?

John 17:12
12 “While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me;
NASU

Luke 10:22
22 “All things have been handed over to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”
NASU

John 16:15
15 “All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.
NASU

Could “all things” include His name?

If you disagree then you must have a better explanation and I am willing to hear it.

Nick, where is it written that Jesus never visited the earth before? If it is not written then should we assume that?
LU

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
We do not work from possible speculations but from what is written.
What is not written is speculative but truth.

If we wish to start speculating where will it stop?

[Proclaimer]

John 1:3-4
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men.
….
10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.
…..
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Let's look at some of the attributes of the Word mentioned above.

[NickHassan]

Hi T8,
Of course life was IN HIM.
He was also FULL OF LIGHT and truth.

[Lightenup]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 04 2008,18:08)

Hi LU, We do not work from possible speculations but from what is written. What is not written is speculative but truth. If we wish to start speculating where will it stop?

Hi Nick,
Huh?
Scripture interprets scripture. That is what I am trying to do here. I am using what is written and tying it together. Apparently you do not have anything substantial to prove my reasoning wrong and that is ok.

LU

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
We can tie scriptures together with logic and try to make one possible truth out of three or four.
But the better principles of scripture study rely on first establishing individual truths.

2Cor 13
1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 05 2008,12:51)

Hi T8, Of course life was IN HIM. He was also FULL OF LIGHT and truth.

Amen.

In him was life.
That life is the light of men.

Him= Word

[Lightenup]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 04 2008,23:06)

Hi LU, We can tie scriptures together with logic and try to make one possible truth out of three or four. But the better principles of scripture study rely on first establishing individual truths. 2Cor 13 1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

Hi Nick,
Ok, that is good as long as individual truth is indeed true. If it isn't then you can not build anything strong upon it.

I believe that the Son of God was alive before the creation of the world as the Son of God, a heavenly being. Do you believe that?

Hebrews 1:10 one witness:
Heb 1:8-12

8 But of the Son He says,

“YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
9 “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;
THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU
WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”

10 And,

“YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
11 THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,
12 AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;
LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED.
BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,
NASU

Witness 2:
Col 1:15-17

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created,both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities– all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
NASU

Witness 3:
1 Cor 8:6
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
NASU

LU

[NickHassan]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 06 2008,01:08)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 04 2008,23:06) Hi LU, We can tie scriptures together with logic and try to make one possible truth out of three or four. But the better principles of scripture study rely on first establishing individual truths. 2Cor 13 1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. Hi Nick, Ok, that is good as long as individual truth is indeed true.  If it isn't then you can not build anything strong upon it. I believe that the Son of God was alive before the creation of the world as the Son of God, a heavenly being.  Do you believe that? Hebrews 1:10 one witness: Heb 1:8-12 8 But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. 9 “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.” 10 And, “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; 11 THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN; AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT, 12 AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP; LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED. BUT YOU ARE THE SAME, NASU Witness 2: Col 1:15-17 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created,both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities– all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. NASU Witness 3: 1 Cor 8:6 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. NASU LU

Hi LU,
If you find one scripture verse and want to know if it is solid as a proven truth or just possible so then find witnesses.

eg

1Jn2
2(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was WITH the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

Jn1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was WITH God, and the Word was God.

Jn1
2The same was in the beginning WITH God.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 06 2008,01:08)

I believe that the Son of God was alive before the creation of the world as the Son of God, a heavenly being.

And then born a lesser birth through the women?

Born a Son of God, and then born-again the Son of God AND Man. How many times was Light/Word/Jesus born anyway?

I think Nick believes he was born-yet-AGAIN at the Jordan?

I'm confused and utterly baffled by all the different Jesus' we have concocted here…..

Sigh,
Mandy

Come, Lord Jesus. Save us from ourselves, I pray.

[Tiffany]

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 05 2008,11:38)

John 1:3-4 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men. …. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. ….. 14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. Let's look at some of the attributes of the Word mentioned above. Was with God in the beginning God made all things through the Word In him (the Word) was life. That life is the light of men. The Word came as a man and the world didn't recognise him. That man was called Yeshua. Therefore he is the Word that was the life and he became a man for our sakes. Jesus even said of himself that he was the life, and the light which are attributes of the Word. This compliments the fact that Yeshua existed as the Word before he came as a man.

I believe that this is a pretty good explanation what the Word was and what He became for us. I agree.
With Rev.3:14 and Col.1:15 IMO
Peave and Love Irene

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 06 2008,08:54)

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 06 2008,01:08) I believe that the Son of God was alive before the creation of the world as the Son of God, a heavenly being. And then born a lesser birth through the women? Born a Son of God, and then born-again the Son of God AND Man.  How many times was Light/Word/Jesus born anyway? I think Nick believes he was born-yet-AGAIN at the Jordan? I'm confused and utterly baffled by all the different Jesus' we have concocted here….. Sigh, Mandy Come, Lord Jesus.  Save us from ourselves, I pray.

There is the one who was divine and existed with God in the beginning, (being the first) and partook of flesh. And there is the one who is a man and was born a man at the very moment he came into existence.

I think the Jesus who is God is not being debated anymore, so that one is ruled out.

But of the 2, I think scripture shows quite clearly which beginning is correct.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 06 2008,08:54)

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 06 2008,01:08) I believe that the Son of God was alive before the creation of the world as the Son of God, a heavenly being. And then born a lesser birth through the women? Born a Son of God, and then born-again the Son of God AND Man.  How many times was Light/Word/Jesus born anyway? I think Nick believes he was born-yet-AGAIN at the Jordan? I'm confused and utterly baffled by all the different Jesus' we have concocted here….. Sigh, Mandy Come, Lord Jesus.  Save us from ourselves, I pray.

Hi not3,
He is also firstborn from the dead.

[Lightenup]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 06 2008,06:09)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 06 2008,08:54) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 06 2008,01:08) I believe that the Son of God was alive before the creation of the world as the Son of God, a heavenly being. And then born a lesser birth through the women? Born a Son of God, and then born-again the Son of God AND Man.  How many times was Light/Word/Jesus born anyway? I think Nick believes he was born-yet-AGAIN at the Jordan? I'm confused and utterly baffled by all the different Jesus' we have concocted here….. Sigh, Mandy Come, Lord Jesus.  Save us from ourselves, I pray. Hi not3, He is also firstborn from the dead.

Good question. And yet another question; when was He given life? If He was alive before creation as the Bible suggests then He was given life sometime before creation unless as some on here think that He always had life. Although I believe that this verse clearly says that the Father had given Him life.

John 5:26
26 “For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;
NASU

“He gave” is past tense and not future tense. Jesus had not died on the cross already when He spoke the above verse.
We know that Christ laid down His life-He died on the cross and was given life after He died. We also know that the “word” that was “with” God was alive in the beginning. Nowhere does it say that the “word” died and was made alive again in the flesh. No, the “word” continued living while becoming flesh.

John 10:17-18
17 “For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. 18 ” No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”
NASU

No where else that I can think of did the Son of God die.

So, through these different “births” I believe that He was given life when He became the “firstborn of all creation” before anything was made in heaven or on the earth, in the beginning. He continued living through His transfiguration from heavenly being to flesh and then died on the cross as the perfect sacrifice for our sins. Then He was given eternal life and will never die again. He only died once.

He was the “firstborn of all creation” and the “firstborn from among the dead”. In each instance He was given life. His birth as a child of Mary's was just a taking on of a different form which needed to come by birth in order to have blood and be in the line of David to fulfill the prophecies. He didn't need this birth to get life, He already had that and no where does it say that He gave up that life to become alive as a man.

Phil 2:7
7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
NASU

LU

[Not3in1]

He emptied himself. *It's still questioned just what he emptied*

Taking the form of a bond servant. *He became poor so that he could reach us*

Being made in the likeness of men. *He was born to Mary, a human being*

To me, this passage has never meant that Jesus lived prior to his birth. It could simply mean that he emptied himself of his pride (as Paul is admonishing everyone to do in context), that he took a low position among us, and that even though he is the Son of God (who is Spirit) – he was made like us.

At this point I am relying on my own experience with Jesus and with God. If I were to rely on the Scriptures alone I would be on a merry-go-round that never stopped! There are just too many interpretations available to any one passage.

Talk about AMBIGUOUS!

Mandy

[NickHassan]

Hi Not3,
Scripture never sais Jesus needed to empty himself of pride.
In context of how it is written in sequence phil 2 shows this emptying is before he came, as heb 1 also shows he was a son before he was brought into the world.

[Not3in1]

As the Son of GOD (being a Prince) he certainly would have had pride. But he chose not to entertain that or grasp at his status. If Jesus was humble – we should be even more humble. I believe this is the thrust of the context Paul was trying to preach.

[NickHassan]

Hi not3,

hmmm.
A guess perhaps?
Does Phil 2 not say that he emptied himself before he was a man?

[Not3in1]

At this point we're all guessing!

[Tiffany]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 07 2008,17:12)

At this point we're all guessing!

Mandy! IMO that scripture is clear, He was the Word and the Word was God and was with God. This alone with Rev. 3:14 and Col. 1:15 shows that He was the firstborn and was there with the Father before the world was. The Father taught the Word ( Son) everything that was Godly, so that when He did become a man, He would not sin. He had to empty Himself to become a Human being. That IMO is the only way that mankind could be saved, He was the perfect sacrifice. He also had Gods Holy Spirit full strength. A mere man would have failed and sinned. Scripture says all man have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God. In any other way He was like us.
Peace and Love Irene

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