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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 03 2008,07:43) Hi WJ,
Fine words but not of faith.
Jesus has proceeded and come from God.
NHGood choice of words.
Notice, no use of born or created.
Big difference. There is no unambiguous scripture to support the preincarnate Yeshua had a begining.
WJ
Quote (epistemaniac @ Sep. 01 2008,09:09) Quote (dirtyknections @ Aug. 31 2008,16:20) Quote (epistemaniac @ Aug. 31 2008,15:52) Sorry brother… But the Nicene Creed holds NO weight with true followers of Christ. To put it bluntly Constantine and the creators of the Nicene creed are the alpha of that which Jesus prophesied here..
Matthew 24:8-14
8All these are the beginning of birth pains.9″Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
2 Thessalonians 2:3
3Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.1 Timothy 4:1-3
1The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.2 Thessalonians 2:3-12
3Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.5Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
So let me put what i am tryinf to say in a condensed form. Simply put the Scriptures foretold a great apostasy, or falling away from the true faith. The symbolic weeds of Jesus’ parable, that is, counterfeit Christians, would try to choke out the symbolic wheat, or true Christians, those anointed with God’s spirit. The parable reveals that the spread of false Christianity, promoted by God’s archenemy, the Devil, was about to begin, “while men were sleeping.” This took place after the death of Christ’s faithful apostles, during a period of spiritual drowsiness. (Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43; 2 Thessalonians 2:6-8) As foretold by the apostles, many counterfeit Christians wormed their way into the fold. (Acts 20:29, 30; 1 Timothy 4:1-3; 2 Timothy 2:16-18; 2 Peter 2:1-3) John was the last of the apostles to die. In about the year 98 C.E., he wrote that “the last hour,” the final part of the apostolic period, had already commenced.—1 John 2:18, 19.
With the alliance of religion and political power sealed by Roman emperor Constantine, the spiritual, doctrinal, and moral condition of Christendom declined. Many historians agree that “the triumph of the Church during the fourth century” was, from the Christian point of view, “a disaster.” ‘Christendom lost her high moral level’ and accepted many practices and philosophies from paganism, such as “the cult of Mary” and the adoration of the “saints,” as well as the concept of the Trinity.
I'm sorry too, I did not see Constantine's name listed anywhere in those verses. Rather, that is just YOUR interpretation of the Scriptures.I would think that Christians could see that while Constantine was not perfect (and he who is without sin cast the first stone!!) his stopping the persecutions and killing of Christians was, on the whole, a pretty good deal for Christians. in all reality. Further, so many equate anything Constantine did or said as evil simply because of errors he made in other areas. But this is to commit the logical fallacy called “the Genetic Fallacy”, that is to deny a proposition's verity based simply on it's source. Adolph Hitler was by all accounts, one of the most evil persons to have ever lived, but if he said “2+2=4”, then this is not false simply because Hitler was responsible for the murder of untold Christians and Jews. So too, just because Constantine did or said something that was false or sinful, it hardly means that everything he did or said was false or wrong.
The Nicene creed does indeed hold weight with all true followers of Christ, for it was used by true Christians to define what true Christians in fact were, and, equally important, were not. Secondly on this point, the Nicene Creed carries weight because, and only because and insofar as it restates biblical teachings. In so far as anyone rejects the Nicene Creed, they reject the biblical principles upon which it was founded.
If you deny the Trinity, then I am not your brother. My brothers and sisters in Christ are those who adhere to the classical historic doctrines of Christianity, those that adhere to the Nicene Creed for instance. If you deny the Nicene Creed then historically, you are not a Christian, and therefore not my brother.
As far as a decline in the church post-Constantine, this is arbitrary. there has always been apostasy in the church, even during the time of Christ, in fact Christ's own persecution and crucifixion was caused by an apostasy in the church, the disciples all fleeing from Jesus when He was arrested was an apostasy, when many were said to leave Christ after he told them that no one could go to the Father but by Him (Jn. 6:66), that too was an apostasy. Prior to Constantine, the early church fathers combated apostasy…. apostasies like Arianism for instance…. and it was not Constantine that decided upon church doctrine, but rather it was leaders within the church itself that decided upon doctrine. Constantine acted as a judge, nothing more.
“The emperor ensured that God was properly worshiped in his empire; what proper worship consisted of was for the Church to determine. In 316, Constantine acted as a judge in a North African dispute concerning the heresy of Donatism. After making a decision against the Donatists, Constantine led an army of Christians against Christians. After 300 years of pacifism, this was the first intra-Christian persecution. More significantly, in 325 h
e summoned the Council of Nicaea, effectively the first Ecumenical Council (unless the Council of Jerusalem is so classified), to deal mostly with the heresy of Arianism.” (Wikipedia)So was Constantine perfect? Of course not. But then, neither are you. So should I reject everything you say because I know that you are a sinner? No more so than you ought to reject what I say, or what Constantine says, based on this fact alone. So while it is easy to demonize Constantine, and blame him for all the faults in the church, that's superficial reasoning and the easy way out. Any problems in the church are the church's fault, and no one single person is to blame for all of their/our issues. If some in “Christendom lost (their) high moral level”, then this is simply saying what has always been true, Christians are not perfect, and not everyone, not all the time, is doing their level best to be a Christian. This does not make it right, that is not the point. The point is that blaming low levels of morality among Christians as being caused by what is happening in the government, is nothing but blame shifting. Of course some jumped on the band wagon and became Christians simply because it might have been politically expedient to do so. These people then might not have been as moral as true Christians should have been. But to say that all of Christendom was a sham post-Constantine simply because some failed to live up to the standards of biblical conduct expected of Christians is just fallacious reasoning, because many Christians, it appears from the historical records such as the early church fathers, did in fact live highly ethical lives.
And even if we were to grant that Constantine ruined the church, this would not, in and of itself, do anything to prove the doctrine of the Trinity or the eternality of the Son as being false.
blessings,
Ken
Hi EExcellent points.
Good post!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 03 2008,08:36) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 03 2008,07:43) Hi WJ,
Fine words but not of faith.
Jesus has proceeded and come from God.
NHGood choice of words.
Notice, no use of born or created.
Big difference. There is no unambiguous scripture to support the preincarnate Yeshua had a begining.
WJ
Hi WJ,
The monogenes Son of our God was sent into the world.[1Jn4]Yahshua Came Down From Heaven
The phrase “came down from heaven” is difficult for many to understand. The Jews did not understand either as we read in Jn. 6:42; “And they said, Is not this Yahshua, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?” There is no doubt that Yahshua was emphasizing his heavenly and paternal origin, but in what sense was he declaring this? We have already seen that the phrase “sent from Yahweh” does not necessarily mean to exist side by side with and then leave Yahweh's presence. Neither does “came down from” mean something similar. Was Yahshua a pre-existent spirit being living side by side with Yahweh that was transformed into an embryo placed in Miriam's womb or was he actually inside Yahweh, “in His loins” as it were, and later united with Miriam's egg through the power of the Holy Spirit? Jn.17:8 teaches the latter. It reads, “For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee , and they have believed that thou didst send me.” The Greek word “exerchomai” translated “came out” specifically means to go out of something that you were inside of. In this case, Yahshua existed inside of Yahweh in the same sense that Levi existed inside the “loins of his father” before he was born (Heb. 7:5-10).
Yahshua declared this truth in Jn.16:27-30 as well. “For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from Yahweh . I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb. Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from Yahweh.” Yahshua could not come from Yahweh's side and from inside of Yahweh at the same time. Only one can be true.
A verse that goes hand in hand with the phrase “came down from heaven” is Jn.6:62; “What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?” Yahshua's origin is not in question here. Those who reject the pre-existence doctrine should not reject Yahshua's heavenly origin or that his father was Yahweh. Yahshua was, at one time, in heaven. He existed in the loins of His Father Yahweh until the appointed time of his earthly birth. Through Yahweh's miraculous Holy Spirit power He then impregnated Miriam's egg with the seed that dwelt inside of Him. The belief that Yahshua was a spirit being that was miniaturized and placed directly into Miriam's womb without uniting with her egg is unscriptural. If that were true, Miriam would merely be a surrogate mother and Yahshua would not be from the blood line of David.
Excerpt From:
Did Our Savior Pre-exist?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 03 2008,08:58) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 03 2008,08:36) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 03 2008,07:43) Hi WJ,
Fine words but not of faith.
Jesus has proceeded and come from God.
NHGood choice of words.
Notice, no use of born or created.
Big difference. There is no unambiguous scripture to support the preincarnate Yeshua had a begining.
WJ
Hi WJ,
The monogenes Son of our God was sent into the world.[1Jn4]
NHBut you said….
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 02 2008,17:32) Hi LU,
Are you suggesting Jesus was a man before he became a man?Are you suggesting he was a Son before he was born a son?
Another great article on this subject can be found at the following link:
Yahshua Came Down From Heaven
By Voy Wilks
1990 – Revised 1993Hi
Ya
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 03 2008,09:10)
Yahshua could not come from Yahweh's side and from inside of Yahweh at the same time. Only one can be true.
So you think this settles it huh?Tell me my friend how can Yeshua be in God and God be in him at the same time?
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 03 2008,09:10)
The phrase “came down from heaven” is difficult for many to understand.
Yes it seems that many here do not understand nor recieve his clear words without inference or oppologetics.How much plainer can his words be…
For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. John 6:33
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. John 6:38
I am the living bread which came down from heaven:… John 6:51
When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? John 6:61:62
Many still are murmuring and disbelieving his words.
You could ask a 10 year old to read these scriptures and they would say Yeshua existed in heaven before he was born.
Why do men think that we need an interpretation of the interpretations?
In most cases when Yeshua was speaking a parable then the writer would explain it was a parable, and Yeshua would interpret it for them if they didn't understand.
Yeshua never told John or the others that he was just a thought or plan in the Fathers mind.
That is pure inference and denial of clear biblcal truth.
He was in the form of God and came in the likeness of sinful flesh. Phil 2:6-8
WJ
Frank,
Good to hear from you. I've been looking at John 6 since last night. I will review everything you have offered.
Thanks,
MandyQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 03 2008,09:11) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 03 2008,08:58) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 03 2008,08:36) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 03 2008,07:43) Hi WJ,
Fine words but not of faith.
Jesus has proceeded and come from God.
NHGood choice of words.
Notice, no use of born or created.
Big difference. There is no unambiguous scripture to support the preincarnate Yeshua had a begining.
WJ
Hi WJ,
The monogenes Son of our God was sent into the world.[1Jn4]
NHBut you said….
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 02 2008,17:32) Hi LU,
Are you suggesting Jesus was a man before he became a man?Are you suggesting he was a Son before he was born a son?
Hi WJ,
Are you speaking of his begettal
or his conception?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 03 2008,10:25) Hi Ya
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 03 2008,09:10)
Yahshua could not come from Yahweh's side and from inside of Yahweh at the same time. Only one can be true.
So you think this settles it huh?Tell me my friend how can Yeshua be in God and God be in him at the same time?
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 03 2008,09:10)
The phrase “came down from heaven” is difficult for many to understand.
Yes it seems that many here do not understand nor recieve his clear words without inference or oppologetics.How much plainer can his words be…
For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. John 6:33
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. John 6:38
I am the living bread which came down from heaven:… John 6:51
When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? John 6:61:62
Many still are murmuring and disbelieving his words.
You could ask a 10 year old to read these scriptures and they would say Yeshua existed in heaven before he was born.
Why do men think that we need an interpretation of the interpretations?
In most cases when Yeshua was speaking a parable then the writer would explain it was a parable, and Yeshua would interpret it for them if they didn't understand.
Yeshua never told John or the others that he was just a though or plan in the Fathers mind.
That is pure inference and denial of clear biblcal truth.
He was in the form of God and came in the likeness of sinful flesh. Phil 2:6-8
WJ
Who said Yeshua was in God and God was in him at the same time?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 03 2008,08:36) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 03 2008,07:43) Hi WJ,
Fine words but not of faith.
Jesus has proceeded and come from God.
NHGood choice of words.
Notice, no use of born or created.
Big difference. There is no unambiguous scripture to support the preincarnate Yeshua had a begining.
WJ
There is no scripture to support that Gabriel had a beginning either.Although if someone believes that Jesus is Wisdom, then it is mentioned that Wisdom was born and the first of God's works.
Proverbs 8 22-23
“The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works” and “I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began”.Proverbs 8:24
“When there were no oceans, I was given birth”.Proverbs 8:30
“Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,”.1 Corinthians 1:24
but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.1 Corinthians 1:30
It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.So yes as far as I know there is no scripture that says Jesus was born a son before the world begun. Although there are scriptures that seem to say it but not directly such as:
Hebrews 1:6
And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God's angels worship him.”We know that angels existed and sons rejoiced at creation. I guess we are just not given great detail about that time.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 03 2008,08:36) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 03 2008,07:43) Hi WJ,
Fine words but not of faith.
Jesus has proceeded and come from God.
NHGood choice of words.
Notice, no use of born or created.
Big difference. There is no unambiguous scripture to support the preincarnate Yeshua had a begining.
WJ
Hi t8
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 03 2008,11:16)
There is no scripture to support that Gabriel had a beginning either.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:3Quote (t8 @ Sep. 03 2008,11:16) Although if someone believes that Jesus is Wisdom, then it is mentioned that Wisdom was born and the first of God's works. Proverbs 8 22-23
“The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works” and “I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began”.Proverbs 8:24
“When there were no oceans, I was given birth”.Proverbs 8:30
“Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,”.1 Corinthians 1:24
but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.1 Corinthians 1:30
It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.
I was appointed from eternity,from the beginning, before the world began. Proverbs 8:23
Clearly before wisdom was brought forth he was from eternity.
So one should ask, “was there ever a time God had no wisdom”? Wisdom is only born when it is revealed to angels or men.
Wisdom always existed. Yeshua is made unto us the wisdom of God because all wisdom and knowledge is contained in him.
In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. Col 2:3
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 03 2008,11:16)
So yes as far as I know there is no scripture that says Jesus was born a son before the world begun. Although there are scriptures that seem to say it but not directly such as:Hebrews 1:6
And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God's angels worship him.”We know that angels existed and sons rejoiced at creation. I guess we are just not given great detail about that time.
Yes, you are correct, there is no scripture that says Yeshua was born a son before the world began. In fact the scriptural evidence leans toward the “eternality of Yeshua”.
And as we know he became the firstborn of many brethren when he came into the world, by taking on the likeness of sinful flesh.
WJ
Hi WJ,
You say
“Yes, you are correct, there is no scripture that says Yeshua was born a son before the world began.”Then say
” In fact the scriptural evidence leans toward the “eternality of Yeshua”.”
If you are prepared to back the first statement as what being written is insufficient as proof,
why trust your supposed inferences to back the second?Scriptures do not LEAN.
If you can find such written then show us.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 02 2008,22:53) Hi WJ,
You say
“Yes, you are correct, there is no scripture that says Yeshua was born a son before the world began.”Then say
” In fact the scriptural evidence leans toward the “eternality of Yeshua”.”
If you are prepared to back the first statement as what being written is insufficient as proof,
why trust your supposed inferences to back the second?Scriptures do not LEAN.
If you can find such written then show us.
Very good point that you made here, Nick.
LUQuote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 03 2008,09:10) Yahshua Came Down From Heaven The phrase “came down from heaven” is difficult for many to understand. The Jews did not understand either as we read in Jn. 6:42; “And they said, Is not this Yahshua, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?” There is no doubt that Yahshua was emphasizing his heavenly and paternal origin, but in what sense was he declaring this? We have already seen that the phrase “sent from Yahweh” does not necessarily mean to exist side by side with and then leave Yahweh's presence. Neither does “came down from” mean something similar. Was Yahshua a pre-existent spirit being living side by side with Yahweh that was transformed into an embryo placed in Miriam's womb or was he actually inside Yahweh, “in His loins” as it were, and later united with Miriam's egg through the power of the Holy Spirit? Jn.17:8 teaches the latter. It reads, “For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee , and they have believed that thou didst send me.” The Greek word “exerchomai” translated “came out” specifically means to go out of something that you were inside of. In this case, Yahshua existed inside of Yahweh in the same sense that Levi existed inside the “loins of his father” before he was born (Heb. 7:5-10).
Yahshua declared this truth in Jn.16:27-30 as well. “For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from Yahweh . I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb. Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from Yahweh.” Yahshua could not come from Yahweh's side and from inside of Yahweh at the same time. Only one can be true.
A verse that goes hand in hand with the phrase “came down from heaven” is Jn.6:62; “What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?” Yahshua's origin is not in question here. Those who reject the pre-existence doctrine should not reject Yahshua's heavenly origin or that his father was Yahweh. Yahshua was, at one time, in heaven. He existed in the loins of His Father Yahweh until the appointed time of his earthly birth. Through Yahweh's miraculous Holy Spirit power He then impregnated Miriam's egg with the seed that dwelt inside of Him. The belief that Yahshua was a spirit being that was miniaturized and placed directly into Miriam's womb without uniting with her egg is unscriptural. If that were true, Miriam would merely be a surrogate mother and Yahshua would not be from the blood line of David.
Excerpt From:
Did Our Savior Pre-exist?
Hi brother F4Y,
Good points on pre-existence of Yahshua.But I want to ask you whether God the immortal Spirit being can possess any mortal substance like sperm or DNA in Him to pass on to Jesus during his conception in Mary ?
Thanks and peace to you
AdamHi GM,
Do you doubt Jesus is the Son of God?
Lk1
30And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.31And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 02 2008,15:07) Hi LU,
No Abraham did not seek to kill ANY man who had come to tell the truth given him of God.
Hi Nick,
Can you recall what “men” or “man” gave Abraham words of God beside the “man” he called LORD? I know that God spoke with Abraham directly many times.
LUQuote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 03 2008,14:53) Hi WJ,
You say
“Yes, you are correct, there is no scripture that says Yeshua was born a son before the world began.”Then say
” In fact the scriptural evidence leans toward the “eternality of Yeshua”.”
If you are prepared to back the first statement as what being written is insufficient as proof,
why trust your supposed inferences to back the second?Scriptures do not LEAN.
If you can find such written then show us.
NH & LULets just put it this way.
There is more scriptural evidence showing the “eternality” of Yeshua than the Arians belief that Yeshua was the result of the Father having birth pangs.
WJ
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 04 2008,01:03) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 02 2008,15:07) Hi LU,
No Abraham did not seek to kill ANY man who had come to tell the truth given him of God.
Hi Nick,
Can you recall what “men” or “man” gave Abraham words of God beside the “man” he called LORD? I know that God spoke with Abraham directly many times.
LU
Hi LU,
It matters not except that he never did try to murder a servant of God, which seems to be the instinctive attitude of all men bending the knee to the God of this world. [Heb11]
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