JOHN 1:1 who is the WORD?

[NickHassan]

Hi not3,
Should we not be?
As you say there is no WHAT

[epistemaniac]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 01 2008,10:36)

Quote (epistemaniac @ Aug. 31 2008,15:44) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 01 2008,02:52) In the beginning was the word.  That does not say that the “word” was eternal, it just says that it was in the beginning.  A word has an origin, first it must be a thought.  Surely there must be something more than that for those of you who believe that the Son of God always existed especially if you believe those who don't believe that are “heretics”. LU Exactly LU…. trinitarians… those who affirm that there never was a time when Jesus was not….. look to other passages which indicate Christ's eternal nature. But, as we look at Jn 1:1, well 1:3 actually, (John 1:3 (NASB) All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.”) we see that Jesus cannot be a created being. If all things came into being through the agency of the Son, and nothing….. nothing came into being but by Him, then plainly Jesus cannot be a created being, for Jesus would have had to have created Himself since He is plainly said to have created all….. ALL….. things… not all OTHER things…. and since Jesus is Himself is a thing, so to speak, and since it is patently absurd for Jesus to have created Himself, for then He would have to “be” before He was, Jesus must therefore be eternal, or, if you like, uncreated. Pretty simple really. blessings, Ken Hello Epistemaniac and Oxy, I agree with you that the Son of God was not a created being.  But at the same time, I believe that the Son of God did have a beginning. Please allow me your consideration here.  I understand that something created to be that which is the first of its kind.  After God created all the “firsts” of their kind during the first six days, His creative works were complete.  Now, we know that mankind was created and the first ones of that kind were Adam and Eve.  Their firstborn was Cain, he came out of the womb of Eve.  He was not created but reproduced and shared in the nature of the created man.  He is a part of creation in that the first of his kind was created. Now, think on this.  If someone that always existed and was never created had a son born from the womb, then that son is not a part of a created order as a created being since the first of his kind always existed.  He would be the firstborn, a reproduction of that which always existed.  He would have the same nature as the one he came from.  He would be God from God as the begotten son of God or firstborn of God.  Just as Cain would be man from man, the begotten son of Adam and Eve. Cain came from a created kind, the Son of God came from an always existent kind.  He was begotten, not “made” as in created. You are a begotten son, you were not created although you are part of creation.  You were born.  Adam and Eve weren't born, they were created.  See the difference.  You are a begotten son of man, man of man, begotten, not made, as in “created”.  You are one substance with your father. As the Nicene Creed states “the only begotten Son of God, begotten of his Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father. The Nicene Creed I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible;    And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, begotten of his Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father; by whom all things were made; who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; he suffered and was buried; and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father; and he shall come again, with glory, to judge both the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.    And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord, and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spake by the Prophets.  And I believe one holy catholic and Apostolic Church; I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. AMEN.” Do you see how the Son of God could have a beginning and not have been considered “created”?  Also it states in this creed that He is Light of Light.  I believe that this very likely is pointing to the light referred to on day one of creation.  Day one was definetly a beginning and nothing had come into being in heaven or on earth.  He certainly is the “Word of God”, Oxy.  And I believe that He was what the first spoken word of God represented when God said “let there be light.” He not only was what the first word represented but also is the representative of the Word of God as we see in Revelations and elsewhere. Just think on these things guys.  As you both know, the “Firstborn of all creation” is a title of the Son of God. I asked God once to show me whether it was literal or not.  That is when I met the literal Son of God. You can find this testimony in a fuller form here: https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….9;st=30 God bless, LU

if the Son of God was never created, then He could not possibly have had a beginning. To have never have been created either means that it does not exist, or that it has always existed.

Cain was created at conception. Before conception he did not exist. Afterward, he did. If you want to call it conception or that his being born/created was first ultimately the result of the will of God as no one is born or dies but that it is God;s will, and secondarily the means God used to accomplish the birth/creation of Cain came about as the result of Adam and Eve having sex and reproducing, but either way it comes down to the same thing. Cain was created, there was a time when he was not.

You make a very good point, IMHO, about like begetting like. Since Jesus was begotten of the Father, and, as you say, He would have the same nature as the one He came from…. well one aspect of the nature of God is eternality, or that of being uncreated. Since Jesus, being begotten of the Father shares in the Father's nature, QED:Jesus is uncreated/eternal/did not have a beginning. As long as God the Father has existed, the Son has existed. Jesus' being “begotten” by the Father cannot really be equated with humans being begotten, so the comparison is really strained and tat may be why I disagree with what you are saying, perhaps we are discussing a distinction without a difference?

You said “Now, think on this. If someone that always existed and was never created had a son born from the womb, then that son is not a part of a created order as a created being sinc
e the first of his kind always existed.”
I disagree. If an eternal being had a Son born of the womb then that son is part of the created order, UNLESS that person had a previous existence, eg as Jesus did. What makes Jesus not part of the created order is not so much His being born from the womb of an uncreated being, rather it is things like where we are told He took on that which He did not previously have, namely human nature Php. 2:6-8 (ESV) who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form,” And since He must have existed prior to being born human in order to take on something He was not before, He therefore had existence prior to being born of the womb. But mostly we know Jesus is not part of the created order because we are told explicitly that He created all things, everything that needed creating, though obviously He did not create God the Father or God the Holy Spirit since they are likewise eternal and uncreated. But since Jesus created everything that has ever been and ever will be created, He Himself cannot be of the created realm, since Jesus could not have created Himself. That is simple enough that even I can understand it….. btw this (creating/bringing creation into existence) is something we are told that only God can do–
Isaiah 45:18 (ESV) For thus says the Lord, who created the heavens (he is God!), who formed the earth and made it (he established it; he did not create it empty, he formed it to be inhabited!): “I am the Lord, and there is no other.)”
and
Isaiah 40:28 (ESV) Have you not known? Have you not heard? The Lord is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He does not faint or grow weary; his understanding is unsearchable.”
Where the words “the Lord” is the translation of H3068 יהוה
Yhvh (i.e. יהוה, Yehovah or יהוה, Yahveh) (217d); from H1933b; the proper name of the God of Israel: – GOD (314), LORD (6399), LORD’S (111).” So in some profound way Jesus is Yahweh, Jesus is Jehovah, unless the Bible contradicts itself. For it says that Jesus is the creator, yet it also says that Yahweh is the creator, not just that God created through Jesus, but that to say that Yahweh is the creator and that Jesus is the creator is simply to say that God is the creator, and that Jesus must be God, but I digress, sorry about that!! I love talking about my Lord and Savior!!!!

Lastly, as an aside, I deeply respect your “tone” and while I may not agree with your ideas, though I realize there are some subtle distinctions you are making and I hope I understood what it was I was disagreeing with ….. be that as it may, I really appreciate the obvious time and effort you took to convey your thoughts clearly and respectfully.

blessings,
Ken

[epistemaniac]

ps, and btw LU, re the title “firstborn” elsewhere I wrote “In the Scriptures the term “first born” of course can mean the literal first born child in a chronological sense, but it can also be a title of honor… now, we know (or we should know) that the Scriptures do not contradict themselves, right? OK…. so we look at the following verse….

Genesis 41:51 (ESV) Joseph called the name of the firstborn Manasseh. “For,” he said, “God has made me forget all my hardship and all my father’s house.”

so… pretty straightforward really……. ok… next we read….

Genesis 46:20 (ESV) And to Joseph in the land of Egypt were born Manasseh and Ephraim, whom Asenath, the daughter of Potiphera the priest of On, bore to him. “

so…. Manasseh was first born and he had a brother whose name was Ephraim….. BUT….. we ALSO read…..

Jeremiah 31:9 (ESV) With weeping they shall come, and with pleas for mercy I will lead them back, I will make them walk by brooks of water, in a straight path in which they shall not stumble, for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.”

!!!! whats this?!!! does the Bible contradict itself after all? Not if “first born” is a title of preeminence and honor…… and that is exactly the sort if description we read here….

Psalms 89:26-27 (ESV)
26 He shall cry to me, ‘You are my Father, my God, and the Rock of my salvation.’ 27 And I will make him the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth.

A further proof of this is the story of how Ephraim and Manasseh came to be regarded by the patriarch Israel…

Genesis 48:13-20 (ESV)
13 And Joseph took them both, Ephraim in his right hand toward Israel’s left hand, and Manasseh in his left hand toward Israel’s right hand, and brought them near him. 14 And Israel stretched out his right hand and laid it on the head of Ephraim, who was the younger, and his left hand on the head of Manasseh, crossing his hands (for Manasseh was the firstborn). 15 And he blessed Joseph and said, “The God before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked, the God who has been my shepherd all my life long to this day, 16 the angel who has redeemed me from all evil, bless the boys; and in them let my name be carried on, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.” 17 When Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand on the head of Ephraim, it displeased him, and he took his father’s hand to move it from Ephraim’s head to Manasseh’s head. 18 And Joseph said to his father, “Not this way, my father; since this one is the firstborn, put your right hand on his head.” 19 But his father refused and said, “I know, my son, I know. He also shall become a people, and he also shall be great. Nevertheless, his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his offspring shall become a multitude of nations.” 20 So he blessed them that day, saying, “By you Israel will pronounce blessings, saying, ‘God make you as Ephraim and as Manasseh.’ ” Thus he put Ephraim before Manasseh.

So Jesus being called “first born” does not HAVE to mean that He was created, or to say with the theologians, that there was a time when He was not. Rather it is very reasonable to say that the Scriptures support the idea that the Son has always existed. that He is immortal, eternal, or, that there never was a time when Jesus was not….. and that the title “first born” has nothing to do with Jesus' birth order, and everything to do with Him having the highest place of honor… and if this is so, we would expect the Scriptures to discuss the preeminence of Christ in association with the title “firstborn”, and that is exactly what we find…

Colossians 1:18 (ESV) And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.”

blessings
Ken

[gollamudi]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 01 2008,15:38)

Not3in1….Good question, Am what?, am alive, am mentioned, am foreordained, am predestined, am known by God, am in higher position. WHAT? gene

Good questions my brother Gene, any of those 'AM's can be infererred for Jesus words.

[gollamudi]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 01 2008,17:44)

Hi not3, Should we not be? As you say there is no WHAT

So brother Nick you are forcing the texts to prove your logic that Jesus was older than Abraham?

[NickHassan]

Hi GM,
I AM
is not forcing the text.
If God calls himself I AM WHO AM should we not learn from that?

[Proclaimer]

To Not3in1.

Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 01 2008,15:31)

Thanks, t8. But Jesus didn't say he was older than Abraham.  He said that before Abraham was I am.  Am what? Mandy

He said, “before Abraham, ego eimi”.

Before = Before
Abraham = Abraham
was = come to pass, be made, become
I = ego, a primary pronoun of the first person I
am = to be, to exist, to happen, to be present

So ask yourself, do you have an ego? Do you exist?

If someone asked you if you were alive in WWII, could your answer be that you existed before the war, but actually mean that you were just a future plan that your mother had?

[GeneBalthrop]

T8…..Jesus did not say i (EXISTED BEFORE ABRAHAM) you are forcing the text to say that, and even if you use EXISTED as what you think it means, it does not say in what way he existed does it, was it in the plan and will of God, that took place before the foundations of the world or does the text just show the position of Jesus is higher the that of Abraham. You have no way of knowing for sure because the text does not state it clearly, you have to add your interruption to it to make it come out the way you want. WE are just saying the wording does not make it clear and can be taken differently. Surely you must agree with that.

peace brother………….gene

[Tiffany]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 02 2008,03:16)

T8…..Jesus did not say i (EXISTED BEFORE ABRAHAM) you are forcing the text to say that, and even if you use EXISTED as what you think it means, it does not say in what way he existed does it, was  it in the plan and will of God, that took place before the foundations of the world or does the text just show the position of Jesus is higher the that of Abraham. You have no way of knowing for sure because the text does not state it clearly, you have to add your interruption to it to make it come out the way you want. WE are just saying the wording does not make it clear and can be taken differently. Surely you must agree with that. peace brother………….gene

Gen Why is it so hard for you to understand when it says in
Col, 1:15 ” He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
verse 16 FOR BY HIM ALL THINGS WERE CREATED THAT ARE IN HEAVEN AND THAT ARE ON EARTH, VISIBLE AMD INVISABLE WHETHER THRONES OR DOMMINIONS OR PRINCIPALITIES OR POWERS. ALL THINGS WERE CREATED THROUGH HIM AND FOR HIM.

H E I S B E FOR E A L L T H I N G S, A N D I N H I M

A L L T H I N G S C O N S I S T.

Tell Gen if somebody creates something is that in mind, no
it is there, not in somebody minds that is simple not possible.
And it makes no sense.

Why do you want to ignore this things has been my question to you, and all you can write back to me is that I put these scriptures up before.
As far as the scripture about Jesus being before Abraham I agree it was put rather hard to understand. But when you put it with all other Scriptures we can see, that Jesus was there. John knowing Jesus in a more personal way, He writes the way it was, before Jesus emptied Himself and became a Human. He was of God and the Word was God, again I ask you are we considered of the Family of God? So was Jesus, He was the firstborn of all, and before the world was. Col. 1:15 and Rev. 3:14
But first I want to quote
Rev. 1:11 ” I am the Alpha and the Omega the First and the Last.
Rev 3:14 ..” These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD.

Read it again Gen, the BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD.

Genesis says in the beginning God created all, right.
It says let us make man in our image. Again who is us and our.
IMO it is Jesus and the Father, Jesus creating by the power of the Father.
By the way I am not stretching Scriptures, I am putting them down the way it is written, and I quote all.
One day my friend, we too will be like Jesus with a glorified Body and God will be all in all, the Family of God.
To that day I can't wait to get there, if it is the will of God, I will stand in front of the throne of God and praise and worship for all eternity.
Peace and Love Irene

[Not3in1]

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 01 2008,23:16)

To Not3in1. Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 01 2008,15:31) Thanks, t8. But Jesus didn't say he was older than Abraham.  He said that before Abraham was I am.  Am what? Mandy He said, “before Abraham, ego eimi”. Before = Before Abraham = Abraham was = come to pass, be made, become I = ego, a primary pronoun of the first person I am = to be, to exist, to happen, to be present So ask yourself, do you have an ego? Do you exist? If someone asked you if you were alive in WWII, could your answer be that you existed before the war, but actually mean that you were just a future plan that your mother had?

But I do believe Jesus “existed” before he was born, just not in the same way you do. So for me your explainations of each word makes complete sense and I agree! But we interpret “am” differently. You take exist to mean literally and I take it to mean that Jesus was still in the body of the Father.

Further, I could say that I existed during the war. I existed in the body of my grandfather.

Hebrews 7:10
because when Melchizedek met Abraham, Levi was still in the body of his ancestor.

[NickHassan]

Hi not3,
The Father has a BODY?
Is it written?

[Not3in1]

Quote (Tiffany @ Sep. 02 2008,04:42)

H E I S B E FOR E A L L T H I N G S,

How many different ways can this be interpreted?

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 02 2008,06:01)

Hi not3, The Father has a BODY? Is it written?

In the OT God makes ref to a son “coming from your own body”. Then he uses conception to bring his own son into the world. What conclusion are we supposed to draw?

Was it a trick?

[NickHassan]

Hi Not3,
That promise was to Abraham was it not?

Rom4
18Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

19And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:

20He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

Mary is the answer.
God provided the rest of the temporary tent.

[Lightenup]

Hi all,
Regarding whether or not Jesus existed while Abraham was alive, this passage seems pretty clear to me. In this passage in John 8, Jesus is talking to the Jews. These Jews declared themselves to be sons of Abraham, and even sons of God. They seem to be devout in their religion. Jesus dares to tell them that they aren't sons of Abraham at all. That didn't go over very well in fact they wanted to kill him, a man who was speaking the words of God. To top it all off, Jesus says that if they were sons of Abraham, they should do the deeds of Abraham. Instead they were attempting to do something that Abraham DID NOT DO. What thing did Abraham NOT DO? Well, we are told that he (Abraham) did not seek to kill Him, a man who spoke the words of God.

John 8:38-45
38 “I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father.” 39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus *said to them, “If you are Abraham's children, do the deeds of Abraham. 40 “But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. 41 “You are doing the deeds of your father.” They said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.” 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. 43 “Why * do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot * hear My word.

And again:
John 8:40
“But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.

A short Greek lesson here. This is John 8:40 in the Greek:
nun de zhteite (5719) me apokteinai, (5658) anqrwpon ov thn alhqeian umin lelalhka (5758) hn hkousa (5656) para tou qeou; touto Abraam ouk epoihsen. (5656)

This is the part of the verse that means “this Abraham did not do”: touto Abraam ouk epoihsen.
The word ouk means “not”.
The word epoihsen means “do”.
The word “epoihsen” is a Verb written in the 3rd Person
in the Aorist tense (past tense)
in the Active voice (subject does the action)
and in the Indicative mood (a statement of fact-it actually happened)
and speaking of a Singular action (speaking of one thing)

You see, Abraham did not seek to kill the pre-existent Son of God when he appeared in the name of the Lord, as a man and spoke to him words of God. Now where in the Bible did this take place. Well, I believe it is right here as one example:

Genesis
18:1 The Lord appeared to Abraham by the oaks of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent during the hottest time of the day. 18:2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing across from him. When he saw them he ran from the entrance of the tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.

18:3 He said, “My lord, if I have found favor in your sight, do not pass by and leave your servant. 18:4 Let a little water be brought so that you may all wash your feet and rest under the tree. 18:5 And let me get a bit of food so that you may refresh yourselves since you have passed by your servant’s home. After that you may be on your way.” “All right,” they replied, “you may do as you say.”
18:6 So Abraham hurried into the tent and said to Sarah, “Quick! Take three measures of fine flour, knead it, and make bread.” 18:7 Then Abraham ran to the herd and chose a fine, tender calf, and gave it to a servant, who quickly prepared it. 18:8 Abraham then took some curds and milk, along with the calf that had been prepared, and placed the food before them. They ate while he was standing near them under a tree.
18:9 Then they asked him, “Where is Sarah your wife?” He replied, “There, in the tent.” 18:10 One of them said, “I will surely return to you when the season comes round again, and your wife Sarah will have a son!” (Now Sarah was listening at the entrance to the tent, not far behind him. 18:11 Abraham and Sarah were old and advancing in years; Sarah had long since passed menopause.) 18:12 So Sarah laughed to herself, thinking, “After I am worn out will I have pleasure, especially when my husband is old too?” 18:13 The Lord said to Abraham, “Why 39 did Sarah laugh and say, ‘Will I really 40 have a child when I am old?’ 18:14 Is anything impossible 41 for the Lord? I will return to you when the season comes round again and Sarah will have a son.” 42 18:15 Then Sarah lied, saying, “I did not laugh,” because she was afraid. But the Lord said, “No! You did laugh.” 43

Abraham Pleads for Sodom
18:16 When the men got up to leave, they looked out over Sodom. (Now Abraham was walking with them to see them on their way.) 18:17 Then the Lord said, “Should I hide from Abraham what I am about to do? 18:18 After all, Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all the nations on the earth will pronounce blessings on one another using his name. 18:19 I have chosen him so that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing what is right and just. Then the Lord will give to Abraham what he promised him.”
18:20 So the Lord said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so blatant 18:21 that I must go down and see if they are as wicked as the outcry suggests. If not, I want to know.”
18:22 The two men turned and headed toward Sodom, but Abraham was still standing before the Lord.

So in summary, if Jesus was just a plan during Abraham's time then of course Abraham wouldn't have sought to kill him. The Son of God existed before Abraham was born.

LU

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
Why should God send His Son twice when He usually sent His angels to do His work?

God is fair and expects us to follow Jesus.

Jesus did not have a head start having previously had a physical existence on earth IMO.

[Tiffany]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 02 2008,06:11)

Quote (Tiffany @ Sep. 02 2008,04:42) H E  I S  B E FOR E   A L L   T H I N G S, How many different ways can this be interpreted?

Mandy! To me it can only be interpet the way it is written. He is before all. When I say I am bfore you, would you understand it? But because it says all, You don't? All means all to me. Meaning even before the earth was, before the animal was. There is only one person that was before Him, and that I hope all will know is our Heavenly Father.
Peace and Love Irene

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 02 2008,03:16)

T8…..Jesus did not say i (EXISTED BEFORE ABRAHAM) you are forcing the text to say that, and even if you use EXISTED as what you think it means, it does not say in what way he existed does it, was  it in the plan and will of God, that took place before the foundations of the world or does the text just show the position of Jesus is higher the that of Abraham. You have no way of knowing for sure because the text does not state it clearly, you have to add your interruption to it to make it come out the way you want. WE are just saying the wording does not make it clear and can be taken differently. Surely you must agree with that. peace brother………….gene

The word “eimi” means the following:
am = to be, to exist, to happen, to be present

Not forcing the text, just reading what it says. Perhaps it is you forcing the text. Jesus said “ego eimi”, so it's not a case of me saying that Jesus said it. It is written gene. I am merely quoting.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 02 2008,07:17)

Hi all, Regarding whether or not Jesus existed while Abraham was alive, this passage seems pretty clear to me.  In this passage in John 8, Jesus is talking to the Jews.  These Jews declared themselves to be sons of Abraham, and even sons of God.  They seem to be devout in their religion.  Jesus dares to tell them that they aren't sons of Abraham at all.  That didn't go over very well in fact they wanted to kill him, a man who was speaking the words of God.  To top it all off, Jesus says that if they were sons of Abraham, they should do the deeds of Abraham.  Instead they were attempting to do something that Abraham DID NOT DO.  What thing did Abraham NOT DO?  Well, we are told that he (Abraham) did not seek to kill Him, a man who spoke the words of God.   John 8:38-45 38 “I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father.” 39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus *said to them, “If you are Abraham's children, do the deeds of Abraham. 40 “But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. 41 “You are doing the deeds of your father.” They said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.” 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. 43 “Why * do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot * hear My word. And again:   John 8:40 “But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. A short Greek lesson here.  This is John 8:40 in the Greek: nun de zhteite (5719) me apokteinai, (5658) anqrwpon ov thn alhqeian umin lelalhka (5758) hn hkousa (5656) para tou qeou; touto Abraam ouk epoihsen. (5656) This is the part of the verse that means “this Abraham did not do”: touto Abraam ouk epoihsen. The word ouk means “not”. The word epoihsen means “do”. The word “epoihsen” is a Verb written in the 3rd Person in the Aorist tense (past tense) in the Active voice (subject does the action) and in the Indicative mood (a statement of fact-it actually happened) and speaking of a Singular action (speaking of one thing) You see, Abraham did not seek to kill the pre-existent Son of God when he appeared in the name of the Lord, as a man and spoke to him words of God.  Now where in the Bible did this take place.  Well, I believe it is right here as one example: Genesis 18:1 The Lord appeared to Abraham by the oaks of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent during the hottest time of the day. 18:2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing across from him. When he saw them he ran from the entrance of the tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground. 18:3 He said, “My lord, if I have found favor in your sight, do not pass by and leave your servant. 18:4 Let a little water be brought so that you may all wash your feet and rest under the tree. 18:5 And let me get a bit of food so that you may refresh yourselves since you have passed by your servant’s home. After that you may be on your way.” “All right,” they replied, “you may do as you say.” 18:6 So Abraham hurried into the tent and said to Sarah, “Quick! Take three measures of fine flour, knead it, and make bread.” 18:7 Then Abraham ran to the herd and chose a fine, tender calf, and gave it to a servant, who quickly prepared it. 18:8 Abraham then took some curds and milk, along with the calf that had been prepared, and placed the food before them. They ate while he was standing near them under a tree. 18:9 Then they asked him, “Where is Sarah your wife?” He replied, “There, in the tent.” 18:10 One of them said, “I will surely return to you when the season comes round again, and your wife Sarah will have a son!” (Now Sarah was listening at the entrance to the tent, not far behind him. 18:11 Abraham and Sarah were old and advancing in years; Sarah had long since passed menopause.) 18:12 So Sarah laughed to herself, thinking, “After I am worn out will I have pleasure, especially when my husband is old too?” 18:13 The Lord said to Abraham, “Why 39  did Sarah laugh and say, ‘Will I really 40  have a child when I am old?’ 18:14 Is anything impossible 41  for the Lord? I will return to you when the season comes round again and Sarah will have a son.” 42  18:15 Then Sarah lied, saying, “I did not laugh,” because she was afraid. But the Lord said, “No! You did laugh.” 43 Abraham Pleads for Sodom 18:16 When the men got up to leave,  they looked out over Sodom. (Now Abraham was walking with them to see them on their way.) 18:17 Then the Lord said, “Should I hide from Abraham what I am about to do? 18:18 After all, Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all the nations on the earth will pronounce blessings on one another using his name. 18:19 I have chosen him so that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing what is right and just. Then the Lord will give to Abraham what he promised him.” 18:20 So the Lord said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so blatant 18:21 that I must go down and see if they are as wicked as the outcry suggests. If not, I want to know.” 18:22 The two men turned and headed toward Sodom, but Abraham was still standing before the Lord. So in summary, if Jesus was just a plan during Abraham's time then of course Abraham wouldn't have sought to kill him.  The Son of God existed before Abraham was born. LU

I thought this was a good post Lightenup. Good point.

[Lightenup]

Thanks t8!
God bless,
LU

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