JOHN 1:1 who is the WORD?

Participant

Quote (limjunus @ Sep. 12 2012,18:29)

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 12 2012,18:18)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 12 2012,01:38)

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 10 2012,23:05)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 11 2012,11:54)

Since we know that Jesus is also called our Savior, and we know that Jesus is not Jehovah, then it proves the claim in Isaiah 43:11 to be an emphatic statement, and not a literal one.

Hi Mike,

I thought it instead “proved” that Jesus was God.

Trinitarians make that claim, Ed. But if they were to be consistent across the board, they would then also have to say the saviors God sent in Nehemiah 9:27 were God Himself.

Hi Mike,

So you agree with me then that it doesn't prove “Jesus is God”,
well, for the same reason it DOESN'T prove your point either.

I will explain why (see Isa 1:18) it does, though, point to what I have been telling you “IS TRUE”.
(The least of which is: Moses was sent in God's stead, and Jesus was sent in God's stead.)

You have said that this verse (in essence) is untrue…
“Is there 'a God' beside me? yea,
there is 'no God'; I know not any.” (Isa 44:8)

Mike's interpretive adjustment…
“Is there 'a mighty one' beside me? yea,
there is 'no mighty one'; I know not any.” (Isa 44:8) …this interpretation presents a number of problems.

Ed's explanation (using Dr.Strong's definition of “EL”)…
“Is there “an Almighty” beside me? yea,
there is “no other Almighty”; I know not any.” (Isa 44:8)

“YHVH is GOD”(117), he alone is “The Savior”(117),
because he has sent others to do his saving; PERIOD! ….He did NOT send others to be a god; NOT even Jesus, nor Moses.

Moses was not sent as a god, …so this is NOT the same as God sending saviors – as your faulty tie-in would try to suggest.
but as a representative of GOD!

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

The true God, know not any God. except Himself.

Sent by God, means: God alone is the sender not the one had sent…. they were the representative of the one and only true God.
:ghostface:

Hi limjunus,

Thanks for agreeing!

“Jesus is Lord”(151) <– See Fourth post on this link
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
holycitybiblecode.org

September 12, 2012 at 9:41 pm#312646

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 12 2012,01:25)

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 10 2012,19:34)

Mike,

This also goes to show that you make Yahweh our Heavenly Father and Creator out to be a liar and that what His word actually says can not be trusted without your perversion applied to it!

I'm just following scripture, Frank. Tell me how, according to Nehemiah, Jehovah could have SENT many saviors (the early judges of Israel) if He was LITERALLY the ONLY savior.

How could He have SENT Jesus into the world to be our savior if He is LITERALLY the ONLY one?

The teaching is: Without me, there would be no savior.

Mike,

Yes, Father Yahweh has sent many redeemers into the world that act on His behalf as our one and only Supreme Redeemer.

:laugh: How convenient that you have found a translation that perverts Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word to fit your perverted doctrine:

Your personal translation:

Quote

The teaching is: Without me, there would be no savior.

More accurate translations:

New International Version (©1984)
I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.

New Living Translation (©2007)
I, yes I, am the LORD, and there is no other Savior.

English Standard Version (©2001)
I, I am the LORD, and besides me there is no savior.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
“I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
I alone am the LORD, and there is no savior except me.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
I, even I, am the LORD; and besides me there is no savior.

American King James Version
I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior.

American Standard Version
I, even I, am Jehovah; and besides me there is no saviour.

Douay-Rheims Bible
I am, I am the Lord: and there is no saviour besides me.

Darby Bible Translation
I, I am Jehovah; and besides me there is no saviour.

English Revised Version
I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Webster's Bible Translation
I, even I, am the LORD; and besides me there is no savior.

World English Bible
I myself am Yahweh; and besides me there is no savior.

Young's Literal Translation
I — I am Jehovah, And besides Me there is no saviour.
SOURCE

WHO IS THE WORD?
John Chapter One

ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
Exodus 32
By Voy Wilks
3/9/98

The Pre-existence
Philippians 2:5-11
By Voy Wilks
1/29/92

…

September 12, 2012 at 10:04 pm#312648

Blocked

Quote (jammin @ Sep. 11 2012,18:25)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 12 2012,01:41)

Quote (jammin @ Sep. 11 2012,02:15)

there is ONE God the only son
there is ONE God the father

And how many Almighty Gods does “ONE” plus “ONE” equal, jammin?

mike the nature of God is almighty

That's the wrong answer, jammin. (The correct answer is “TWO”………….. ONE plus ONE equals TWO.)

So, if you worship Jesus as your God, and you worship Jehovah as your God, then you worship TWO Gods – plain and simple.

September 12, 2012 at 10:08 pm#312649

Blocked

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 11 2012,16:31)

Mike,

Nowhere in Scripture is Yahshua called “a god”.

Yep. Nowhere except for Isaiah 9:6, John 1:1, John 20:28, Hebrews 1:8, and POSSIBLY Titus 2:13 and a couple of other places.

September 12, 2012 at 10:22 pm#312650

Blocked

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 12 2012,01:18)

Hi Mike,

So you agree with me then that it doesn't prove “Jesus is God”……….

Have I ever claimed Jesus is God?

As for the rest of your post, I will put this as simply as I can:

When Jehovah says there is no savior apart from Him, it is an EMPHATICAL statement, and not a LITERAL one. We know this because we know from scripture that Jehovah SENT many OTHER saviors.

Likewise, when Jehovah says there is no el apart from Him, it is also an EMPHATICAL statement, and not a LITERAL one. And likewise, we know this because we know from scripture that Jehovah SENT many other elohim. Deborah is one of them. Jesus is another. The angel that came to Manoah was another. The angel that wrestled with Jacob was another.

See Ed? We KNOW these things because scripture TEACHES these things.

Ed, answer this one simple question for me: How can Jehovah be the El of elohim (God of gods) if there exist no other gods for Him to be the God of?

Just stop and THINK for a minute.

At any rate, you can go on accepting the politically correct “one literal el” theory if you want to. As for me, I will continue to accept what the scriptures actually TEACH.

September 12, 2012 at 10:28 pm#312651

Participant

Quote (seekingtruth @ Sep. 12 2012,20:01)

Quote (jammin @ Sep. 12 2012,08:25)

THE BIBLE SAID THAT CHRIST IS EQUAL WITH GOD. i know you do not believe these words of paul.

jammin, What verse are you referring to?

Thanks – Wm

seekingtruth (wm),

What jammit is giving reference to I believe, is where in the book of Philippians Shaul makes mention that Yahshua was in the “FORM of Yahweh WHEN HE WAS HERE IN THE WORLD. I believe he is using the word 'form' to push the doctrine that Yahshua was of the same “nature” as Yahweh and since he believes that Father Yahweh is “God”, he also believes that Yahshua must be of the same “nature” and also be “God”. He is also taking into consideration a translation (e.g. King James Bible – Cambridge Ed., Douay-Rheims Bible, Young's Literal Translation, Webster's Bible Translation, American King James Version, etc.) in the same verse where it says “thought it not robbery to be equal with God.” Following are what I believe to be more accurate translations of the verse:

New International Version (©1984)
Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

New Living Translation (©2007)
Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to.

English Standard Version (©2001)
who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

International Standard Version (©2008)
In God's own form existed he, and shared with God equality, deemed nothing needed grasping.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
He who, while he was in the form of God, did not esteem this as a prize, that he was the equal of God,

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Although he was in the form of God and equal with God, he did not take advantage of this equality.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not a thing to be grasped to be equal with God:

American Standard Version
who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Weymouth New Testament
Although from the beginning He had the nature of God He did not reckon His equality with God a treasure to be tightly grasped.

World English Bible
who, existing in the form of God, didn't consider equality with God a thing to be grasped,

English Revised Version
who, being in the form of God, counted it not a prize to be on an equality with God,
SOURCE

I believe these translations take into consideration what is said in the next verse in saying: “But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: …” (King James Bible – Cambridge Ed.) and bring it into harmony with Scripture as a whole. In other words, Yahshua humbled himself as his and our Father Yahweh's servant fulfilling the prophecy of his being His humble servant. Yahshua did not “empty” himself of being a pre-existent “god” as many deceptively force, twist and pervert this passage to say.

WHO IS THE WORD?
John Chapter One

ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
Exodus 32
By Voy Wilks
3/9/98

The Pre-existence
Philippians 2:5-11
By Voy Wilks
1/29/92

…

September 12, 2012 at 10:32 pm#312653

Blocked

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 12 2012,15:41)

Mike,

Yes, Father Yahweh has sent many redeemers into the world that act on His behalf as our one and only Supreme Redeemer.

Bravo, Frank!

So you ARE capable of understanding an EMPHATICAL statement after all! Good for you.

When Jehovah says there is no savior apart from Him, it is an EMPHATICAL statement meaning that He alone is the SUPREME REDEEMER! You are absolutely correct on this one.

Now, you only need to apply this same understanding to Isaiah 44:8.

Just remember that Jehovah cannot POSSIBLY be the “Most High God” unless there exist other, lower gods for Him to be HIGHER than.

He cannot POSSIBLY be the “God of gods” unless there exist other gods for Him to be the God OF.

And He cannot POSSIBLY be the “Almighty God” unless there exist other gods who are not quite as mighty as Him.

Just stop and think about those things for a minute, Frank. I did not make those things up – they are all right from scripture.

September 12, 2012 at 10:37 pm#312654

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 13 2012,09:22)

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 12 2012,01:18)

Hi Mike,

So you agree with me then that it doesn't prove “Jesus is God”……….

Have I ever claimed Jesus is God?

As for the rest of your post, I will put this as simply as I can:

When Jehovah says there is no savior apart from Him, it is an EMPHATICAL statement, and not a LITERAL one. We know this because we know from scripture that Jehovah SENT many OTHER saviors.

See Ed? We KNOW these things because scripture TEACHES these things.

Ed, answer this one simple question for me: How can Jehovah be the El of elohim (God of gods) if there exist no other gods for Him to be the God of?

Just stop and THINK for a minute.

At any rate, you can go on accepting the politically correct “one literal el” theory if you want to. As for me, I will continue to accept what the scriptures actually TEACH.

Hi Mike,

Isaiah 44:8 means there is no other “Almighty”, of course there are other 'mighty ones'.
We have been through this many times now, why do you continue to persist?
God does not send gods, this is merely your illusion that he does.

You can go on promoting the 'only one EL definition' theory if you want to.
As for me, I will continue to accept what the scriptures actually TEACH.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

September 12, 2012 at 10:41 pm#312655

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 13 2012,09:32)

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 12 2012,15:41)

Mike,

Yes, Father Yahweh has sent many redeemers into the world that act on His behalf as our one and only Supreme Redeemer.

Bravo, Frank!

So you ARE capable of understanding an EMPHATICAL statement after all! Good for you.

When Jehovah says there is no savior apart from Him, it is an EMPHATICAL statement meaning that He alone is the SUPREME REDEEMER! You are absolutely correct on this one.

Now, you only need to apply this same understanding to Isaiah 44:8.

Just remember that Jehovah cannot POSSIBLY be the “Most High God” unless there exist other, lower gods for Him to be HIGHER than.

He cannot POSSIBLY be the “God of gods” unless there exist other gods for Him to be the God OF.

And He cannot POSSIBLY be the “Almighty God” unless there exist other gods who are not quite as mighty as Him.

Just stop and think about those things for a minute, Frank. I did not make those things up – they are all right from scripture.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 13 2012,09:32)

I did not make those things up – they are all right from scripture.

Hi Mike,

You made those things up – all right from your interpretation of scripture.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

September 12, 2012 at 10:41 pm#312656

Blocked

Emphatical statement test for Ed and Frank……………

Overheard from a Denver Broncos fan: There are no quarterbacks besides Payton Manning!

Is this statement:

A. Literal, meaning that Payton Manning is LITERALLY the ONLY football quarterback in existence?

B. Emphatical, meaning that, from the viewpoint of the speaker, Payton Manning is the BEST quarterback in existence?

September 12, 2012 at 10:45 pm#312657

Blocked

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 12 2012,16:37)

Isaiah 44:8 means there is no other “Almighty”, of course there are other 'mighty ones'.

Ed,

In Isaiah 44:8, Jehovah asks, “Is there an el besides me?”

Well Ed, is there? Is there any other being who is ever called “el” or “elohim” in scripture? YES or NO?

September 12, 2012 at 10:45 pm#312658

Did Thomas Call Yahshua “God”?

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 13 2012,09:08)

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 11 2012,16:31)

Mike,

Nowhere in Scripture is Yahshua called “a god”.

Yep. Nowhere except for Isaiah 9:6, John 1:1, John 20:28, Hebrews 1:8, and POSSIBLY Titus 2:13 and a couple of other places.

Mike,

Yahshua is also not called “a god” in any of the verses that you have presented.

Isayah 9:6:

Does Isayah 9:6 Proclaim Yahshua To Be Yahweh?
Does Isaiah 9:6 Claim That “Jesus is God”?

Yahchanan 1:1:

WHO IS THE WORD?
John Chapter One

Yahchanan 20:28:

Hebrews 1:8:

Did Father Yahweh call His Son “God”?

And as for your POSSIBLY, you know full well that you are using perverted translation to push your perverted doctrine! :laugh:

ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
Exodus 32
By Voy Wilks
3/9/98

The Pre-existence
Philippians 2:5-11
By Voy Wilks
1/29/92

…

September 12, 2012 at 10:47 pm#312659

Blocked

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 12 2012,16:41)

Hi Mike,

You made those things up – all right from your interpretation of scripture.

That's the kind of LIES that cause members here to get tiles, Ed.

Is Jehovah called “the God of gods”? YES or NO?

Is He called “the Almighty God”? YES or NO?

Is He called “the Most High God”? YES or NO?

Show me which of those things I made up, or retract your statement.

September 12, 2012 at 10:47 pm#312660

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 13 2012,09:41)

Emphatical statement test for Ed and Frank……………

Overheard from a Denver Broncos fan: There are no quarterbacks besides Payton Manning!

Is this statement:

A. Literal, meaning that Payton Manning is LITERALLY the ONLY football quarterback in existence?

B. Emphatical, meaning that, from the viewpoint of the speaker, Payton Manning is the BEST quarterback in existence?

Three big logic fallacies that I see presented here: (Link)

1. Opinions: opinions are presented as evidence.
2. Scenarios: scenarios are presented as proof.
3. Consensus: consensus is seen as conformation.

Your post exhibits logic fallacies number 1 and 2;
now call for Pierre and you'll win the trifecta!

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

September 12, 2012 at 10:51 pm#312661

Blocked

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 12 2012,16:28)

in the book of Philippians Shaul makes mention that Yahshua was in the “FORM of Yahweh WHEN HE WAS HERE IN THE WORLD.

Hmmm………… So Jesus already WAS a human being when he was “made in the likeness of a human being”?

September 12, 2012 at 10:53 pm#312662

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 13 2012,09:45)

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 12 2012,16:37)

Isaiah 44:8 means there is no other “Almighty”, of course there are other 'mighty ones'.

Ed,

In Isaiah 44:8, Jehovah asks, “Is there an el besides me?”

Well Ed, is there? Is there any other being who is ever called “el” or “elohim” in scripture? YES or NO?

Hi Mike: of course, but that in NO WAY proves your case.

“EL” defines as “The Almighty” for YHVH, and 'mighty ones' for all others.

Mike's interpretive adjustment…
“Is there 'a mighty one' beside me? yea,
there is 'no mighty one'; I know not any.” (Isa 44:8) …this interpretation presents a number of problems.

Ed's explanation (using Dr.Strong's definition of “EL”)…
“Is there “an Almighty” beside me? yea,
there is “no other Almighty”; I know not any.” (Isa 44:8)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

September 12, 2012 at 10:53 pm#312663

Blocked

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 12 2012,16:47)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 13 2012,09:41)

Emphatical statement test for Ed and Frank……………

Overheard from a Denver Broncos fan: There are no quarterbacks besides Payton Manning!

Is this statement:

A. Literal, meaning that Payton Manning is LITERALLY the ONLY football quarterback in existence?

B. Emphatical, meaning that, from the viewpoint of the speaker, Payton Manning is the BEST quarterback in existence?

Three big logic fallacies that I see presented here……………

Are you unable to figure out the answer, my friend? Would you like a hint?

September 12, 2012 at 10:56 pm#312664

Did Thomas Call Yahshua “God”?

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 13 2012,09:45)

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 12 2012,16:37)

Isaiah 44:8 means there is no other “Almighty”, of course there are other 'mighty ones'.

Ed,

In Isaiah 44:8, Jehovah asks, “Is there an el besides me?”

Well Ed, is there? Is there any other being who is ever called “el” or “elohim” in scripture? YES or NO?

Mike,

You know full well that there is no other source of power other than Father Yahweh and that this verse of Scripture and many other verses and passages of Scripture prove your belief that Yahshua pre-existed as “a god” beside his and our Father Yahweh in the beginning to be foolish, false, deceptive and demonic. :laugh:

Isayah 9:6:

Does Isayah 9:6 Proclaim Yahshua To Be Yahweh?
Does Isaiah 9:6 Claim That “Jesus is God”?

Yahchanan 1:1:

WHO IS THE WORD?
John Chapter One

Yahchanan 20:28:

Hebrews 1:8:

Did Father Yahweh call His Son “God”?

ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
Exodus 32
By Voy Wilks
3/9/98

The Pre-existence
Philippians 2:5-11
By Voy Wilks
1/29/92