JOHN 1:1 who is the WORD?

[Frank4YAHWEH]

THE FOURTH MAN:
A Pre-existent Yahushua?
By Eric A. Gentile
BenYahu
1/10/1991

Of late, Dan. 3:25 has been offered by some as proof, in itself, Yahushua pre-existed. These say, he was the fourth man in the fire.

On reading this verse in the King James Bible, my senses are seized by the phrase, “the form of the fourth is LIKE the Son of [Yah].” I recall that, as sons of Adam, our form is like our Creator's, yet we are not He, nor am I aware of evidence we pre-existed. Too, angels are referred to as “sons” of Yahueh (Iyob [Job] 1:6; 2:1; 38:7; Praises [Psalms] 29:1; 89:6).

On checking Dan 3:25 in the ASV, BOY, IB, NAS, NIV, RSV, and in the JB where it appears as verse 92, all of them read “… a son of the gods.” In the King James Companion Bible, Bullinger notes that the King James' rendering “the  Son of God.” is wrong, for in the Hebrew there is no [definite] article before “sons” so it should read, “a son”. From this, the identity of the “fourth man”  is not at all clear, hence “Son” should not be capitalized. Any definite conclusion that the fourth man “fourth man” is Yahushua pre-existent to his birth seems, thus, unfounded and premature.

In support of this finding, we might well consider Dan. 3:28, where King Nebuchadnezzar says, “Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, Who hath sent His angel …”  Now, why the clear identity of an angel here, if it was the Son in verse 25? Too, Bullinger provides considerable insight on the identity of the sons of Yah in appendix 23 to the Companion Bible. Also note: trinitarian Bibles, i.e. Harper, Ryrie, Thompson, agree with Bullinger–as does even the strongly trinitarian Life Application Bible–the identity of the fourth man is not clear.

Given these findings, and the fact Yahushua was not an angel,

“For unto which of the angels said He (Yahueh) at any time, 'Thou art My son …” (Ibr. [Heb.] 1:5). “But to which of the angels said He at any time, 'Sit thou on My right hand …” (Ibr. [Heb.] 1:13). “For every high priest, taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to [Yahueh]  …” (Ibr. [Heb. 5:1). “So also [the Anointed One] esteemed not himself to be made High Priest; but He that said unto him, 'Thou art My son…” (Ibr. [Heb.] 5:5). “Called of [Yahueh] an High Priest after the order of Melchisedec.” (Ibr. [Heb.] 5:10).

Can Dan. 3:25, then, by itself, RIGHTLY be taken as PROVING Yahushua pre-existed? Is not the answer obvious? Or has something been overlooked here? Let us look to the Scripture to prove Yah's truth, not any tradition, assumption or other prior conclusion on our part.
SOURCE  

WHO IS THE WORD?
John Chapter One

ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
Exodus 32
By Voy Wilks
3/9/98

The Pre-existence
Philippians 2:5-11
By Voy Wilks
1/29/92

Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

“Jesus IS God!”?

…

[Frank4YAHWEH]

The following is an excerpt from – The Messiah's Pre-Existence — Fact Or Fable?” Hope of Israel Ministries BIBLE Correspondence Course Lesson 40:

(Source link at end of excerpt)

'5. Those who try to deceive you will more than likely use Daniel 3:25 to “prove” that the son of God was pre-existent.

COMMENT: The first thing you should realize is the fact that there are many sources out there that know this verse has been mistranslated — Clarke’s Commentary is one of them: “Verse 25. [Is like the Son of God.] A most IMPROPER translation … bar elahin signifies a son of the gods, that is, a Divine person or angel; and so the king calls him in verse 28: 'God hath sent his ANGEL, and delivered his servants.'”

It is quite amazing that there are people out there who say this fourth person wasYeshua
the Messiah. They, of course, are trying to deceive you into thinking that the Messiah was
alive at the time. But even a CURSORY examination of this verse indicates that there is
absolutely NOTHING here that names the Messiah or says that he pre-existed!

Now, let's notice WHAT was said — and by WHOM. The statement made in Daniel 3:25
was spoken by Nebuchadnezzar, the king of Babylon — just as Daniel 3:24 clearly states.
Nebuchadnezzar was a pagan who had just made an image of himself and had commanded all in his kingdom to worship it. He then cast Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego into the furnace
because they refused to worship this image–they would worship YEHOVAH God only.

It was this same Nebuchadnezzar who made this statement in Daniel 3:25: “… the fourth looks like the SON OF THE GODS.” Are we to suppose, then, that this pagan king who was trying to kill the servants of YEHOVAH God, said” “… the fourth looks like the Messiah, the Son of YEHOVAH”? This is EXACTLY what the deceivers would like you to believe!

YEHOVAH has many angels, and He does send them to help us at times — like the ones
YEHOVAH sent to help Lot and Abraham. The Bible also shows that many times these angels
have the appearance of HUMAN BEINGS — and this is exactly how King Nebuchadnezzar
described the fourth man in Daniel 3:25. He did NOT say: “..I see the Messiah …” Neither did he say: “… I see the Son of YEHOVAH …” Do not let anyone to deceive you about this!'
[PDF] SOURCE  

WHO IS THE WORD?
John Chapter One

ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
Exodus 32
By Voy Wilks
3/9/98

The Pre-existence
Philippians 2:5-11
By Voy Wilks
1/29/92

Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

“Jesus IS God!”?

…

[Ed J]

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 29 2012,13:19)

Hi Frank,

It is wolf in sheep's clothing, not a sheep in wolf's clothing.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 30 2012,08:52)

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 29 2012,13:43) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 29 2012,12:46) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 28 2012,19:14) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 29 2012,11:51) And do you believe the Holy Spirit is the Most High God, Creator of the heavens and earth?  YES or NO? The Spirit of the most high God. So you do NOT believe that the Holy Spirit is God?   Hi Mike, Do you believe your spirit is you or someone else? Answer my question, Ed: Do you believe that God's Holy Spirit is God Most High?  YES or NO?

Hi Mike,

I told you: the HolySpirit is the spirit of the most high God.
My question to you illustrates just how foolish it is
to believe God's spirit or word is someone else.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

“God is Spirit:
and they that worship him
must worship in spirit and in truth.” (John 4:24)

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 29 2012,11:46)

Quote (— @ Aug. 28 2012,18:43) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 29 2012,10:39) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 28 2012,16:44) John 1 2 He God Most High was with God in the beginning. 9 The true light God Most High, that gives light to every man, was coming into the world. 10 He God Most High was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He God Most High came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 14 The Word God Most High became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his God Most High's glory, the glory of the only begotten, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. Does that sound about right to you Ed?  How about to you Siskel and Ebert? Mike, Just another one of your perversions of what is actually being said! I agree that my makeshift translation was a perversion, Frank.  But it was not MY perversion.  It was ED's perversion, for which you gave him “two thumbs way up”. All I did was take YOUR perversion and write it into the book of John. Btw, I thought that you believed the Word was “sublime”, and not “God Himself”.  Why then, would you give a high five to Ed when he is claiming that the Word actually is God Most High? FALSE, It is YOUR perversion. Hmmmm………… So then you are NOT the one who equated “the Word” with “the God who was in Jesus, reconciling the world to Himself”? Is it not YOU who insists that the Word is the Holy Spirit, which in turn is God Most High?

Put “HolySpirit” in there and see how it reads.

[Frank4YAHWEH]

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 30 2012,09:35)

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 29 2012,13:19) Hi Frank, It is wolf in sheep's clothing, not a sheep in wolf's clothing. God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Ed J,

Yes, I do realize that! Can you imagine a lamb taking after a wolf? Poor Pierre!

[terraricca]

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 30 2012,17:36)

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 30 2012,09:35) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 29 2012,13:19) Hi Frank, It is wolf in sheep's clothing, not a sheep in wolf's clothing. God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org Ed J, Yes, I do realize that! Can you imagine a lamb taking after a wolf? Poor Pierre!

F

poverty is in your mind ,it is the missing truth ,but I am not poor in truth of Gods word ,or in my faith,and conscience ,

my heart is totally placed in Gods way,

I do not make books sell book ,or promote anyone else books

only recommend the bible in some version.

you most have seen you reflection in your posted image

[Frank4YAHWEH]

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 30 2012,10:36)

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 30 2012,09:35) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 29 2012,13:19) Hi Frank, It is wolf in sheep's clothing, not a sheep in wolf's clothing. God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org Ed J, Yes, I do realize that! Can you imagine a lamb taking after a wolf? Poor Pierre!

Ed J,

And BTW, you can right-click on the image and then click “View Image Info” and you will find it does say “LambInWolvesClothing.” I got this image from my photobucket.com page and the URL info is there also.  

How about this one:

Is this what you prefer?  

[Frank4YAHWEH]

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 30 2012,11:39)

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 30 2012,17:36) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 30 2012,09:35) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 29 2012,13:19) Hi Frank, It is wolf in sheep's clothing, not a sheep in wolf's clothing. God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org Ed J, Yes, I do realize that! Can you imagine a lamb taking after a wolf? Poor Pierre!   F poverty is in your mind ,it is the missing truth ,but I am not poor in truth of Gods word ,or in my faith,and conscience , my heart is totally placed in Gods way, I do not make books sell book ,or promote anyone else books only recommend the bible in some version. you most have seen you reflection in your posted image

Pierre,

I beg to differ! You are obviously being mislead by a pack of wolves unaware! Sad, but true!

BTW, do you fancy yourself as one of Jove's Witnesses? If so, what have you been an actual witness to?  

WHO IS THE WORD?
John Chapter One

ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
Exodus 32
By Voy Wilks
3/9/98

The Pre-existence
Philippians 2:5-11
By Voy Wilks
1/29/92

Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

“Jesus IS God!”?

…

[mikeboll64]

Ed,

I'm still waiting for a DIRECT answer to this question:

Do you believe that God's Holy Spirit is God Most High?  YES or NO?

I only need a “YES” or a “NO”, Ed.  You have a thread here called HolySpirit is “GOD: The Father” of Jesus Christ, right?  So why is it now so hard for you to answer this simple question?  

[Ed J]

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 30 2012,10:36)

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 30 2012,09:35) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 29 2012,13:19) Hi Frank, It is wolf in sheep's clothing, not a sheep in wolf's clothing. God bless Ed J Ed J, Yes, I do realize that! Can you imagine a lamb taking after a wolf? Poor Pierre!

Hi Frank,

Actually this image gets the point across very well. It was
only after I thought about it, did I realize it was backwards.  

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 30 2012,11:53)

Ed, I'm still waiting for a DIRECT answer to this question: Do you believe that God's Holy Spirit is God Most High?  YES or NO? I only need a “YES” or a “NO”, Ed.  You have a thread here called HolySpirit is “GOD: The Father” of Jesus Christ, right?  So why is it now so hard for you to answer this simple question?

Hi Mike,

This is now the third time I have answered.
God's Holy Spirit is God – God's SolySpirit is most high.  

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[mikeboll64]

So then the following is really an accurate portrayal of your understanding? YES or NO?

John 1
2 He God Most High was with God in the beginning.

9 The true light God Most High, that gives light to every man, was coming into the world.

10 He God Most High was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.

11 He God Most High came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.

14 The Word God Most High became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his God Most High's glory, the glory of the only begotten, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 30 2012,12:18)

So then the following is really an accurate portrayal of your understanding?  YES or NO? John 1 2 He God Most High was with God in the beginning. 9 The true light God Most High, that gives light to every man, was coming into the world. 10 He God Most High was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He God Most High came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 14 The Word God Most High became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his God Most High's glory, the glory of the only begotten, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

As I said before – put the HolySpirit in there.

[Ed J]

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 30 2012,12:20)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 30 2012,12:18) So then the following is really an accurate portrayal of your understanding?  YES or NO? John 1 2 He God Most High was with God in the beginning. 9 The true light God Most High, that gives light to every man, was coming into the world. 10 He God Most High was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He God Most High came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 14 The Word God Most High became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his God Most High's glory, the glory of the only begotten, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. As I said before – put the HolySpirit in there.

And the Word [HolySpirit] was made flesh, and dwelt among us,
 (and we beheld [the HolySpirit's] his glory, the glory as of
 the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.         (John 1:14)

[mikeboll64]

Ed, if you believe that the Holy Spirit IS God Most High, then my version conveys your understanding of John 1 correctly.

It is, however, amusing to see you wriggle around when confronted with what you actually claim to believe – as if there is something wrong with that belief.  

[Frank4YAHWEH]

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 30 2012,11:39)

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 30 2012,17:36) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 30 2012,09:35) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 29 2012,13:19) Hi Frank, It is wolf in sheep's clothing, not a sheep in wolf's clothing. God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org Ed J, Yes, I do realize that! Can you imagine a lamb taking after a wolf? Poor Pierre!   F poverty is in your mind ,it is the missing truth ,but I am not poor in truth of Gods word ,or in my faith,and conscience , my heart is totally placed in Gods way, I do not make books sell book ,or promote anyone else books only recommend the bible in some version. you most have seen you reflection in your posted image

Pierre,

BTW, your friends that you choose to associate yourself with did not get the following information from a “bible in some version” of Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word:

“Verse 2 is talking about the son and it says that God made the universe through him, (in the context of him being a son). The word universe in this scripture means Age.

aion {ahee-ohn'}
1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age

We even use the word 'aion' (eon or aeon) in English to refer to Age. So if we read the last part of this verse as AGE, we get the following: appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the age.”

It came from the following source that you are obviously are promoting:

http://www.heaven.net.nz/answers/answer31.htm

The fact is, if we did not use other sources for our knowledge other than a “bible in some version” of our choice, we would only be posting nothing but Scripture text from said “bible in some version” minus our own words in this forum. I am not gong to lie to you! I myself give reference to a number of translations and various Bible dictionaries, Hebrew and Greek lexicons and etc. I have also openly listened to others from various religious persuasions concerning Scripture throughout my lifetime with an open mind and have weighed the evidence in what it is that they have presented to me in accordance with various translations of Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word. I have also made it a point to closely adhered to the original existing copies and translations of manuscripts and texts of Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word for such evidence. I am also aware that there are no originals manuscripts in existence originally penned by the inspired authors of Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word. If you have any other information that you believe I should take into consideration (which I strongly doubt) please do let me know, alright?  

WHO IS THE WORD?
John Chapter One

ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
Exodus 32
By Voy Wilks
3/9/98

The Pre-existence
Philippians 2:5-11
By Voy Wilks
1/29/92

Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

“Jesus IS God!”?

…

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 30 2012,12:34)

Ed, if you believe that the Holy Spirit IS God Most High, then my version conveys your understanding of John 1 correctly. It is, however, amusing to see you wriggle around when confronted with what you actually claim to believe – as if there is something wrong with that belief.

Hi Mike,

It appears that way to you, because you keep trying to
make God a person – which of course he is not – God is spirit.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[terraricca]

F

I going to ask you only one question ,

 
 
if you would read the scriptures all of the books ,not the rejected ones and you stach away all previous concept,doctrine,and wath not of men,so that's your mind is clear of any out side influence,
And now reading the bible without adding or subtract any thing ,WHAT Do you think would be your understanding This way you learn like a child ,

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