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Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 07 2012,10:29) Wakeup, Was everything created by the rider of the white horse in Rev 19:13? Or are there more than one usage of the phrase “word of God” in scripture?
I agree that God spoke all things into being. But all those things were created through Jesus Christ. He had to have existed with his God before the world began or it couldn't have been created through him.
So we can say that all things were created by the (spoken) word of God through (the one with the title) the Word of God.
Mike,Now you are simply basing your belief that what Yahweh had created was “through” His son Yahshua as if he actually existed there with Him, and in turn basing this belief on how the translators chose to translate these FEW small GREEK words. I am sure you know full well that these FEW small GREEK words were translated variously throughout the so-called “New Testament”, right? It surely makes no sense to me to base one's belief that Yahshua was somehow LITERALLY involved in the creation as a pre-existent being on how a translator chose to translate a FEW small GREEK words, when there are some 107 Scripture verses and passages that proclaim that Father Yahweh “ALONE”, “BY HIMSELF” with “NO ONE BESIDE HIM” created the heavens and the earth and all things in them. How a word is to be translated into another language is to be based on the context of what is being said as a whole and not on one's biased belief that there was another “god-kind” involved in creation.
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I don't claim that Jesus created anything, Frank. I claim that God, alone and by Himself, created all things through His Son Jesus Christ.
Tertullian put it simply: He who creates is one, and he through whom the thing is created is another.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 07 2012,10:57) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 06 2012,17:38) Do you believe that every occurrence of “the word” in Scripture in reference to Yahshua as an existing being?
Not at all. Read my last post to Wakeup on this thread. I've been trying to tell Kerwin and others that “the word of God” doesn't ALWAYS refer to a word God has spoken. Sometimes, as in Rev 19:13, it refers to Jesus Christ.Kerwin and I are trying to find out if that phrase refers to Jesus in John 1:1 and 1:14.
But since you think it's normal for God's utterance to be with Him in the beginning, why not address my other points? What does it mean that an utterance of God “became flesh”? And why would a word that God spoke out of His mouth have the glory of His only begotten Son?
Mike,I really do not believe that you and kerwin “are trying to find out if that phrase refers to Jesus in John 1:1 and 1:14.” I believe that you already have this preconceived belief engrained into your mind and you are doing anything in an attempt to convince kerwin otherwise to what it is that he believes.
I can not count how many times I have explained to you what is meant by Father Yahweh's word becoming flesh. Again, it does not LITERALLY mean that Yahweh's word formed flesh around it, but that it simply means that Yahshua is the flesh spokesman of his and our Father Yahweh's word in this last time period as Hebrews 1:1-2 makes quite clear. I see no problem with the words that Yahweh spoke out of His mouth having the esteem of His only begotten son, since Yahshua most certainly had esteem for his and our Father Yahweh's word.
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Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 07 2012,11:09) I don't claim that Jesus created anything, Frank. I claim that God, alone and by Himself, created all things through His Son Jesus Christ. Tertullian put it simply: He who creates is one, and he through whom the thing is created is another.
Mike,Tertullian's words most certainly have not been included as Scriptural canon! I do not base my beliefs on so-called “Christian” author's words, but totally rely in Scripture for my doctrine for reproof and correction and instruction in righteousness. If I were to include the words of so-called “Christian” author's words with Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word, I could simply come up with any far fetched doctrine that I so choose to believe in. I believe that I have been “thoroughly furnished” in this and I simply do not need the extra words of others added unto Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word.
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Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 07 2012,11:42) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 07 2012,11:09) I don't claim that Jesus created anything, Frank. I claim that God, alone and by Himself, created all things through His Son Jesus Christ. Tertullian put it simply: He who creates is one, and he through whom the thing is created is another.
Mike,Tertullian's words most certainly have not been included as Scriptural canon! I do not base my beliefs on so-called “Christian” author's words, but totally rely in Scripture for my doctrine for reproof and correction and instruction in righteousness. If I were to include the words of so-called “Christian” author's words with Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word, I could simply come up with any far fetched doctrine that I so choose to believe in. I believe that I have been “thoroughly furnished” in this and I simply do not need the extra words of others added unto Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word.
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Mike,As to your saying:
Quote I claim that God, alone and by Himself, created all things through His Son Jesus Christ. I claim what Father Yahweh has claimed in His inspired prophetic word and that is that He “ALONE”, “BY HIMSELF” with “NO ONE BESIDE HIM” created the heavens and the earth and ALL things in them. I believe that those FEW small GREEK words are more appropriately translated as “because of”, “for” or “on account of”, since I do not believe Yahshua pre-existed his birth as an actual being, that I believe he had to have the same origin as all men and we as mere men also did not pre-exist our birth as actual beings.
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Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 07 2012,11:42) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 07 2012,11:09) I don't claim that Jesus created anything, Frank. I claim that God, alone and by Himself, created all things through His Son Jesus Christ. Tertullian put it simply: He who creates is one, and he through whom the thing is created is another.
Mike,Tertullian's words most certainly have not been included as Scriptural canon! I do not base my beliefs on so-called “Christian” author's words, but totally rely in Scripture for my doctrine for reproof and correction and instruction in righteousness. If I were to include the words of so-called “Christian” author's words with Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word, I could simply come up with any far fetched doctrine that I so choose to believe in. I believe that I have been “thoroughly furnished” in this and I simply do not need the extra words of others added unto Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word.
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Mike,And BTW, was not Tertullian a Trinitarian, since it is recorded that “He wrote his trinitarian formula after becoming a Montanist.”?
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Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 06 2012,18:25) I see no problem with the words that Yahweh spoke out of His mouth having the esteem of His only begotten son…………
Well Frank,Therein lies the difference between you and I. I think what you “have no problem with” is absolutely ludicrous.
I once said the word “cherry”, and that word floated around the world with the glory of my only begotten son!
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 06 2012,18:25) Again, it does not LITERALLY mean that Yahweh's word formed flesh around it, but that it simply means that Yahshua is the flesh spokesman of his and our Father……….
Hmmmm……….. The words are “and the Word became flesh”. It doesn't say, “the Word gained a flesh spokesman to speak it”.But Frank, I'm already used to this kind of nonsense from Trinitarians and non-preexisters. You guys will go out of your way to make the scriptures not say what they are clearly saying – even if it makes you look like a buffoon in the process.
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 06 2012,18:53) Mike, As to your saying:
Quote I claim that God, alone and by Himself, created all things through His Son Jesus Christ. I claim what Father Yahweh has claimed in His inspired prophetic word and that is that He “ALONE”, “BY HIMSELF” with “NO ONE BESIDE HIM” created the heavens and the earth and ALL things in them.
I claim that God, alone, by Himself, and with no one beside Him, created all things through His Son Jesus Christ.Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 07 2012,14:25) Mike, I really do not believe that you and kerwin “are trying to find out if that phrase refers to Jesus in John 1:1 and 1:14.” I believe that you already have this preconceived belief engrained into your mind and you are doing anything in an attempt to convince kerwin otherwise to what it is that he believes.
I can not count how many times I have explained to you what is meant by Father Yahweh's word becoming flesh. Again, it does not LITERALLY mean that Yahweh's word formed flesh around it, but that it simply means that Yahshua is the flesh spokesman of his and our Father Yahweh's word in this last time period as Hebrews 1:1-2 makes quite clear. I see no problem with the words that Yahweh spoke out of His mouth having the esteem of His only begotten son, since Yahshua most certainly had esteem for his and our Father Yahweh's word.
Problem is Frank, this is your opinion and it is supported by your own understanding.When you read scripture you do not see what you say, rather you see what Mike is saying. To get your meaning, you need to saturate your understanding with these ideas first.
And let's face it. It is no surprise that you come to your understanding when your mind is saturating with these ideas.
As said before. The only way to get vinegar out of a sponge is to soak the sponge in vinegar.
But we are not soaking the sponge when we believe what the scriptures say word for word.
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 06 2012,19:00) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 07 2012,11:09) Tertullian put it simply: He who creates is one, and he through whom the thing is created is another.
Mike,And BTW, was not Tertullian a Trinitarian, since it is recorded that “He wrote his trinitarian formula after becoming a Montanist.”?
Tertullian is the man credited with coming up with the word “trinity” to describe the God of the Hebrews as a triune God, so no, I don't hang on every word the dude ever wrote.But you can't really argue with his logic in the statement I quoted. That's why I quoted it.
(It also shows that he understood the word “dia” as “through” in the verses that speak of God creating “through” Jesus.)
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 07 2012,14:53) I claim what Father Yahweh has claimed in His inspired prophetic word and that is that He “ALONE”, “BY HIMSELF” with “NO ONE BESIDE HIM” created the heavens and the earth and ALL things in them. I believe that those FEW small GREEK words are more appropriately translated as “because of”, “for” or “on account of”, since I do not believe Yahshua pre-existed his birth as an actual being, that I believe he had to have the same origin as all men and we as mere men also did not pre-exist our birth as actual beings.
Frank. Let's reason together.Who saved us. Who is the only saviour. Is it not God who saved us. Did not Jesus say, your will not my will.
So are we to assume then that God saved us and could not have possibly done it through anyone because we are told that God is the only saviour.
This would have to be your conclusion if you want to be fair and consistent.
So continue to believe that God did not create all things through Jesus Christ and be fair and believe that God also did not save us through Jesus Christ because God alone is the saviour.
And we will believe that God created all things through Jesus Christ and that he also saved us through Jesus Christ while acknowledging that God is the only saviour and creator.
Is that not a fair deal?
Quote (t8 @ July 07 2012,12:12) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 07 2012,14:25) Mike, I really do not believe that you and kerwin “are trying to find out if that phrase refers to Jesus in John 1:1 and 1:14.” I believe that you already have this preconceived belief engrained into your mind and you are doing anything in an attempt to convince kerwin otherwise to what it is that he believes.
I can not count how many times I have explained to you what is meant by Father Yahweh's word becoming flesh. Again, it does not LITERALLY mean that Yahweh's word formed flesh around it, but that it simply means that Yahshua is the flesh spokesman of his and our Father Yahweh's word in this last time period as Hebrews 1:1-2 makes quite clear. I see no problem with the words that Yahweh spoke out of His mouth having the esteem of His only begotten son, since Yahshua most certainly had esteem for his and our Father Yahweh's word.
Problem is Frank, this is your opinion and it is supported by your own understanding.When you read scripture you do not see what you say, rather you see what Mike is saying. To get your meaning, you need to saturate your understanding with these ideas first.
And let's face it. It is no surprise that you come to your understanding when your mind is saturating with these ideas.
As said before. The only way to get vinegar out of a sponge is to soak the sponge in vinegar.
But we are not soaking the sponge when we believe what the scriptures say word for word.
t8,Nowhere in Scripture does it ever say “Yahshua pre-existed his birth as an actual being.” There is also no mention in Scripture from where we are to get our doctrine for reproof and correction and instruction in righteousness of a son named Yahshua that was with Father Yahweh in the beginning that He created through. Also, nowhere in Scripture am I ever asked to believe and confess such foolshness!
Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
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Quote (t8 @ July 07 2012,12:18) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 07 2012,14:53) I claim what Father Yahweh has claimed in His inspired prophetic word and that is that He “ALONE”, “BY HIMSELF” with “NO ONE BESIDE HIM” created the heavens and the earth and ALL things in them. I believe that those FEW small GREEK words are more appropriately translated as “because of”, “for” or “on account of”, since I do not believe Yahshua pre-existed his birth as an actual being, that I believe he had to have the same origin as all men and we as mere men also did not pre-exist our birth as actual beings.
Frank. Let's reason together.Who saved us. Who is the only saviour. Is it not God who saved us. Did not Jesus say, your will not my will.
So are we to assume then that God saved us and could not have possibly done it through anyone because we are told that God is the only saviour.
This would have to be your conclusion if you want to be fair and consistent.
So continue to believe that God did not create all things through Jesus Christ and be fair and believe that God also did not save us through Jesus Christ because God alone is the saviour.
And we will believe that God created all things through Jesus Christ and that he also saved us through Jesus Christ while acknowledging that God is the only saviour and creator.
Is that not a fair deal?
t8,There is no reasoning with such foolishness as this! In fact, why would I want to reason with the likes of you? Yahshua is our redeemer for the plain and simply fact that it was His and our Father Yahweh Who gave him ALL power [authority] in heaven and in the earth in this last time period. In the beginning it was Father Yahweh Who was the only redeemer. There was no redeemer beside Him!
Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
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Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 07 2012,12:16) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 06 2012,19:00) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 07 2012,11:09) Tertullian put it simply: He who creates is one, and he through whom the thing is created is another.
Mike,And BTW, was not Tertullian a Trinitarian, since it is recorded that “He wrote his trinitarian formula after becoming a Montanist.”?
Tertullian is the man credited with coming up with the word “trinity” to describe the God of the Hebrews as a triune God, so no, I don't hang on every word the dude ever wrote.But you can't really argue with his logic in the statement I quoted. That's why I quoted it.
(It also shows that he understood the word “dia” as “through” in the verses that speak of God creating “through” Jesus.)
Mike,A Trinitarian most likely would have no problem with understanding the word “dia” as “through” with his preconceived idea of a “Triune God”!
It seems the Trini's usually like the word “by” – as in “the world was created BY Jesus”.
Anyway, the reason I used Tertullian's quote is to show creating through Jesus doesn't mean God didn't do the creating by Himself.
After all, my son only exists because he is a creation of God alone. But God created him through me.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 07 2012,12:57) It seems the Trini's usually like the word “by” – as in “the world was created BY Jesus”. Anyway, the reason I used Tertullian's quote is to show creating through Jesus doesn't mean God didn't do the creating by Himself.
After all, my son only exists because he is a creation of God alone. But God created him through me.
Mike,So, did Tertullian as a Trinitarian like the word “by” or “through” as a translation of the Greek word 'dia'? Do you believe his choice of either translation would have had any repercussions in his being a Trinitarian?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 07 2012,12:57) It seems the Trini's usually like the word “by” – as in “the world was created BY Jesus”. Anyway, the reason I used Tertullian's quote is to show creating through Jesus doesn't mean God didn't do the creating by Himself.
After all, my son only exists because he is a creation of God alone. But God created him through me.
Mike,Are you a “Twini”?
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 06 2012,19:16) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 06 2012,11:58) Quote (t8 @ July 06 2012,10:59) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 06 2012,12:40) To Those Who Do Understand, Father Yahweh's word is not a separate person, being, “god”, or “an angel.”
And the Word was WITH GOD.
The Word became flesh.
He is called “The Word of God”.Have another go Frank because we clearly believe this and you deny it, even though it is written.
t8,Father Yahweh's word that was with Him was not a separate person, being, “god”, or “an angel”.
Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
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t8,Don't even try Mike's faulty reasoning that Father Yahweh's word can not be with Him, because then you would have to also deny what Father Yahweh said as follows:
So shall My word be that goes forth out of My mouth: it shall not return unto Me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it (Isayah 55:11).
Did YOUR “a god” the Word come out of YOUR God's mouth?
Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
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fQuote Did YOUR “a god” the Word come out of YOUR God's mouth? we know that that God created all of his works through Christ ,this can not be denied ,
tell me then through whom did the Christ ,the son of God came
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