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Quote (kerwin @ July 05 2012,11:20) Mike; Quote then it makes perfect logical AND scriptural sense that the Word of God who was with the Father in the beginning, but was then made into a human being, and dwelled as a human being on earth with the glory of the only begotten of the Father, is one and the same person as the one who bears the title “the Word of God” in Rev 19:13. Where did you get person?
Is it not a person who has the title “the Word of God” in Rev 19:13? Is it not a person who dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son?I guess I don't understand the question.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 06 2012,08:36) Quote (kerwin @ July 05 2012,11:20) Mike; Quote then it makes perfect logical AND scriptural sense that the Word of God who was with the Father in the beginning, but was then made into a human being, and dwelled as a human being on earth with the glory of the only begotten of the Father, is one and the same person as the one who bears the title “the Word of God” in Rev 19:13. Where did you get person?
Is it not a person who has the title “the Word of God” in Rev 19:13? Is it not a person who dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son?I guess I don't understand the question.
To Those Who Do Understand,Father Yahweh's word is not a separate person, being, “god”, or “an angel.”
Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
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Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 06 2012,12:40) To Those Who Do Understand, Father Yahweh's word is not a separate person, being, “god”, or “an angel.”
And the Word was WITH GOD.
The Word became flesh.
He is called “The Word of God”.Have another go Frank because we clearly believe this and you deny it, even though it is written.
Quote (t8 @ July 06 2012,10:59) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 06 2012,12:40) To Those Who Do Understand, Father Yahweh's word is not a separate person, being, “god”, or “an angel.”
And the Word was WITH GOD.
The Word became flesh.
He is called “The Word of God”.Have another go Frank because we clearly believe this and you deny it, even though it is written.
t8,Father Yahweh's word that was with Him was not a separate person, being, “god”, or “an angel”.
Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
…
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 06 2012,11:58) Quote (t8 @ July 06 2012,10:59) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 06 2012,12:40) To Those Who Do Understand, Father Yahweh's word is not a separate person, being, “god”, or “an angel.”
And the Word was WITH GOD.
The Word became flesh.
He is called “The Word of God”.Have another go Frank because we clearly believe this and you deny it, even though it is written.
t8,Father Yahweh's word that was with Him was not a separate person, being, “god”, or “an angel”.
Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
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t8,Don't even try Mike's faulty reasoning that Father Yahweh's word can not be with Him, because then you would have to also deny what Father Yahweh said as follows:
So shall My word be that goes forth out of My mouth: it shall not return unto Me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it (Isayah 55:11).
Did YOUR “a god” the Word come out of YOUR God's mouth?
Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
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Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 06 2012,14:58) Quote (t8 @ July 06 2012,10:59) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 06 2012,12:40) To Those Who Do Understand, Father Yahweh's word is not a separate person, being, “god”, or “an angel.”
And the Word was WITH GOD.
The Word became flesh.
He is called “The Word of God”.Have another go Frank because we clearly believe this and you deny it, even though it is written.
t8,Father Yahweh's word that was with Him was not a separate person, being, “god”, or “an angel”.
Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
…
Say what you like Frank.But the Word that was with God became flesh and his name was Jesus. You would have us believe that Jesus had no existence with God before the world began even though scripture is clear that he had glory with the Father at that point.
You cannot prove your stance and you go against too many scriptures with it.
Even this text which is similar to John 1:1 is against your view.
1 John 1
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
In case you had any doubt about how to read John 1:1, you only need to read 1John 1:1 to get further clarification.
Notice that the life was with the Father and was revealed.
And what was that revelation? It was Jesus and did not this Jesus actually say with his own mouth: “I am the life”.He was the life that was with the Father before the world began.
Frank admits that Jesus' name is called “the Word of God”, yet for some reason just cannot bring himself to even consider the possibility that the one called “the Word [of God]” in John 1:14 could be this same person whose name is called “the Word of God”………………….
despite the fact that this particular Word in 1:14 was made flesh, dwelled among the disciples, and had the glory of God's only begotten Son…………………
despite the fact they saw this particular Word with their own eyes and touched it with their own hands (1 John 1:1)…………….
despite the fact that it was said that life was in this particular Word (John 1:4), and it was later said that life was in Jesus (1 John 5:11)…………………………
despite the fact that John the Baptist said very particular words about the Word in John 1:15, and then said those very same words about Jesus in 1:30……………….
and despite the fact that this same story of one who was with God but then was made flesh is confirmed in Phil 2 and many other scriptures.
Hmmmmm……………. He apparently has personal reasons for this denial, since there aren't any scriptural ones.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 06 2012,12:21) Frank admits that Jesus' name is called “the Word of God”, yet for some reason just cannot bring himself to even consider the possibility that the one called “the Word [of God]” in John 1:14 could be this same person whose name is called “the Word of God”…………………. despite the fact that this particular Word in 1:14 was made flesh, dwelled among the disciples, and had the glory of God's only begotten Son…………………
despite the fact they saw this particular Word with their own eyes and touched it with their own hands (1 John 1:1)…………….
despite the fact that it was said that life was in this particular Word (John 1:4), and it was later said that life was in Jesus (1 John 5:11)…………………………
despite the fact that John the Baptist said very particular words about the Word in John 1:15, and then said those very same words about Jesus in 1:30……………….
and despite the fact that this same story of one who was with God but then was made flesh is confirmed in Phil 2 and many other scriptures.
Hmmmmm……………. He apparently has personal reasons for this denial, since there aren't any scriptural ones.
I certainly do not not admit to the foolishness that Father Yahweh's word was an actual being that existed with Him in the beginning!Mike and t8 find it difficult to see, hear (perceive, understand) and handle Father Yahweh's word!
Do your best to present yourself to Yahweh as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15).
Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
…
Quote (t8 @ July 06 2012,05:59) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 06 2012,12:40) To Those Who Do Understand, Father Yahweh's word is not a separate person, being, “god”, or “an angel.”
And the Word was WITH GOD.
The Word became flesh.
He is called “The Word of God”.Have another go Frank because we clearly believe this and you deny it, even though it is written.
T8,It is not written.
What is written is that the Word was God and was with God in beginning. Genesis testifies to that fact.
It is also written that Jesus is called by the name of the Word of God. Therefore we know that there are two called by the name of the Word and the Utterance of God is explicitly stated to be with God in the beginning of creation.
Jesus was first called by the name of God when the Word first became flesh; after all he is the one who pioneered and perfects birth and growth through the Word.
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 06 2012,12:58) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 06 2012,12:21) Frank admits that Jesus' name is called “the Word of God”, yet for some reason just cannot bring himself to even consider the possibility that the one called “the Word [of God]” in John 1:14 could be this same person whose name is called “the Word of God”…………………. despite the fact that this particular Word in 1:14 was made flesh, dwelled among the disciples, and had the glory of God's only begotten Son…………………
despite the fact they saw this particular Word with their own eyes and touched it with their own hands (1 John 1:1)…………….
despite the fact that it was said that life was in this particular Word (John 1:4), and it was later said that life was in Jesus (1 John 5:11)…………………………
despite the fact that John the Baptist said very particular words about the Word in John 1:15, and then said those very same words about Jesus in 1:30……………….
and despite the fact that this same story of one who was with God but then was made flesh is confirmed in Phil 2 and many other scriptures.
Hmmmmm……………. He apparently has personal reasons for this denial, since there aren't any scriptural ones.
I certainly do not not admit to the foolishness that Father Yahweh's word was an actual being that existed with Him in the beginning!Mike and t8 find it difficult to see, hear (perceive, understand) and handle Father Yahweh's word!
Do your best to present yourself to Yahweh as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15).
Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
…
Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light for my path (Psalm 119:105).You have made known to me the path of life; You will fill me with joy in Your presence, with eternal pleasures at Your right hand (Psalm 16:11).
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever HEARS my word and believes Him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life (Yahchanan 5:24).
Simon Kepha answered him, “Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life (Yahchanan 6:68).
Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock (Mattithyah 7:24).
Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
…
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 06 2012,13:15) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 06 2012,12:58) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 06 2012,12:21) Frank admits that Jesus' name is called “the Word of God”, yet for some reason just cannot bring himself to even consider the possibility that the one called “the Word [of God]” in John 1:14 could be this same person whose name is called “the Word of God”…………………. despite the fact that this particular Word in 1:14 was made flesh, dwelled among the disciples, and had the glory of God's only begotten Son…………………
despite the fact they saw this particular Word with their own eyes and touched it with their own hands (1 John 1:1)…………….
despite the fact that it was said that life was in this particular Word (John 1:4), and it was later said that life was in Jesus (1 John 5:11)…………………………
despite the fact that John the Baptist said very particular words about the Word in John 1:15, and then said those very same words about Jesus in 1:30……………….
and despite the fact that this same story of one who was with God but then was made flesh is confirmed in Phil 2 and many other scriptures.
Hmmmmm……………. He apparently has personal reasons for this denial, since there aren't any scriptural ones.
I certainly do not not admit to the foolishness that Father Yahweh's word was an actual being that existed with Him in the beginning!Mike and t8 find it difficult to see, hear (perceive, understand) and handle Father Yahweh's word!
Do your best to present yourself to Yahweh as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15).
Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
…
Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light for my path (Psalm 119:105).You have made known to me the path of life; You will fill me with joy in Your presence, with eternal pleasures at Your right hand (Psalm 16:11).
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever HEARS my word and believes Him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life (Yahchanan 5:24).
Simon Kepha answered him, “Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life (Yahchanan 6:68).
Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock (Mattithyah 7:24).
Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
…
Your word, O Yahweh, is eternal; it stands firm in the heavens (Psalm 119:89).Set them apart by the truth; Your word is truth (Yahchanan 17:17).
Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says (Yaaqob 1:22).
For it is not those who hear the instruction who are righteous in Yahweh's sight, but it is those who obey the instruction who will be declared righteous (Romans 2:13).
Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
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The two chief moderators of this forum once again get owned by the one who speaks the truth of Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word!
Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
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Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 06 2012,03:36) Quote (kerwin @ July 05 2012,11:20) Mike; Quote then it makes perfect logical AND scriptural sense that the Word of God who was with the Father in the beginning, but was then made into a human being, and dwelled as a human being on earth with the glory of the only begotten of the Father, is one and the same person as the one who bears the title “the Word of God” in Rev 19:13. Where did you get person?
Is it not a person who has the title “the Word of God” in Rev 19:13? Is it not a person who dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son?I guess I don't understand the question.
Mike;You are claiming that the Word spoken of by John in the first chapter is a person. There is no evidence to support that conclusion.
It is true that Jesus is called by the name of the Word at the time mentioned in Revelations but you have not given evidence to support your conclusion that he was called the Word in the beginning; or that he is the one John is speaking of.
We know that the Utterance of God has been with God since the beginning and has always born the name of the Word.
Quote (kerwin @ July 06 2012,13:04) Quote (t8 @ July 06 2012,05:59) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 06 2012,12:40) To Those Who Do Understand, Father Yahweh's word is not a separate person, being, “god”, or “an angel.”
And the Word was WITH GOD.
The Word became flesh.
He is called “The Word of God”.Have another go Frank because we clearly believe this and you deny it, even though it is written.
T8,It is not written.
What is written is that the Word was God and was with God in beginning. Genesis testifies to that fact.
It is also written that Jesus is called by the name of the Word of God. Therefore we know that there are two called by the name of the Word and the Utterance of God is explicitly stated to be with God in the beginning of creation.
Jesus was first called by the name of God when the Word first became flesh; after all he is the one who pioneered and perfects birth and growth through the Word.
Kerwin.Maybe this will help.
FROM EVERLASTING GOD AND HIS LIVING WORD>——>——->—–>——>(Gods word made flesh,his name is Jesus)——>—–>—->( He died,as the son of God,also the son of the flesh(man)(of the root of David).->—–>—–> resurrected and the same is now sitting with God,as the son of God and also as of the root and offspring of David.(the glorified flesh).
He always has been the LIVING WORD of God:from EVERLASTING to EVERLASTING. GOD IS SPEAKING THROUGH HIM ALWAYS.
WHEN GOD SPEAKS; HE SPEAKS.
wHEN JESUS SAYS I AM; GOD IS IS THE I AM.
WHEN JESUS SAYS I CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN; GOD CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN,RESIDING IN HIS TEMPLE (JESUS THE FLESH).( what I think; that I speak: never the other way around).
(I dont speak first and then think).
What God thinks; the word utters it).I hope I dont confuse you even more.
wakeup.
Why are we not too interested in prophesies?
In knowing prophesies, is our protection against the great delusions that is coming to this world.wakeup.
Quote (kerwin @ July 05 2012,20:51) We know that the Utterance of God has been with God since the beginning and has always born the name of the Word.
Kerwin,You go out of your way to make the “utterance” of God seem like a living being that can be with God. But can you show me a scripture where anyone else's utterance was ever said to have been “with them”?
Quote (kerwin @ July 05 2012,20:51) You are claiming that the Word spoken of by John in the first chapter is a person. There is no evidence to support that conclusion. It is true that Jesus is called by the name of the Word at the time mentioned in Revelations but you have not given evidence to support your conclusion that he was called the Word in the beginning; or that he is the one John is speaking of.
You say I have no proof, but let's pick an agreed upon starting point: We both agree that the phrase “the Word of God” refers to the person Jesus in Revelation 19:13, so let's work it from there.In the beginning, something or someone called “the Word [of God]” was with God Himself. We agree that Jesus is called “the Word”, so it could easily have been him. (Our other option is claiming that someone's utterance could be said to have been with that someone – which is strange in and of itself.)
We find out that this particular “Word of God” became flesh. Well, Phil 2 echoes the thought that Jesus was existing in a different form before being made flesh. We also have John telling us that we must believe Jesus has “come in the flesh”, or we have the spirit of the antichrist. What does “has come in the flesh” mean? Normal humans who have never been anything other than human are not said to have “come in the flesh”. They are born flesh, and remain flesh. That simple phrase, “has come in the flesh”, is telling us all something that you refuse to accept. But back to the point: This particular “Word of God” became flesh. This will fit in nicely if Jesus is “the Word” in question. (Our other option is that the literal “utterance” of God became flesh. What would that mean? A word God spoke grew skin?)
And finally (for this post anyway), we know that when this particular Word became flesh, this particular Word dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son. Once again, that would fit the person Jesus to a “T”. (Our other option is that an “utterance” God spoke became some kind of fleshy thing and displayed glory as if it – a literal spoken word – was the only begotten Son of God.)
Kerwin, this is just the tip of the iceberg of pre-existence scriptures, but so far, all the scriptural words would match PERFECTLY with the person Jesus being “the Word” in John 1, while an “utterance” from God's mouth doesn't really make too much sense. We'd first have to figure out what it meant that an “utterance” from God became flesh. And then we'd have to figure out why one of the words God spoke would have glory as of His only begotten.
Yes MikeB.
Everything and everything was created BY THE WORD OF GOD,
BY THE BREATH OF HIS MOUTH.PSLMS 33:6.
So it only makes sense that Jesus was also created by the word of God.
There was a period in time when the everlasting Word was changed;the the time of transformation.(his birth date).wakeup.
Wakeup,
Was everything created by the rider of the white horse in Rev 19:13? Or are there more than one usage of the phrase “word of God” in scripture?
I agree that God spoke all things into being. But all those things were created through Jesus Christ. He had to have existed with his God before the world began or it couldn't have been created through him.
So we can say that all things were created by the (spoken) word of God through (the one with the title) the Word of God.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 07 2012,09:54) Quote (kerwin @ July 05 2012,20:51) We know that the Utterance of God has been with God since the beginning and has always born the name of the Word.
Kerwin,You go out of your way to make the “utterance” of God seem like a living being that can be with God. But can you show me a scripture where anyone else's utterance was ever said to have been “with them”?
Quote (kerwin @ July 05 2012,20:51) You are claiming that the Word spoken of by John in the first chapter is a person. There is no evidence to support that conclusion. It is true that Jesus is called by the name of the Word at the time mentioned in Revelations but you have not given evidence to support your conclusion that he was called the Word in the beginning; or that he is the one John is speaking of.
You say I have no proof, but let's pick an agreed upon starting point: We both agree that the phrase “the Word of God” refers to the person Jesus in Revelation 19:13, so let's work it from there.In the beginning, something or someone called “the Word [of God]” was with God Himself. We agree that Jesus is called “the Word”, so it could easily have been him. (Our other option is claiming that someone's utterance could be said to have been with that someone – which is strange in and of itself.)
We find out that this particular “Word of God” became flesh. Well, Phil 2 echoes the thought that Jesus was existing in a different form before being made flesh. We also have John telling us that we must believe Jesus has “come in the flesh”, or we have the spirit of the antichrist. What does “has come in the flesh” mean? Normal humans who have never been anything other than human are not said to have “come in the flesh”. They are born flesh, and remain flesh. That simple phrase, “has come in the flesh”, is telling us all something that you refuse to accept. But back to the point: This particular “Word of God” became flesh. This will fit in nicely if Jesus is “the Word” in question. (Our other option is that the literal “utterance” of God became flesh. What would that mean? A word God spoke grew skin?)
And finally (for this post anyway), we know that when this particular Word became flesh, this particular Word dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son. Once again, that would fit the person Jesus to a “T”. (Our other option is that an “utterance” God spoke became some kind of fleshy thing and displayed glory as if it – a literal spoken word – was the only begotten Son of God.)
Kerwin, this is just the tip of the iceberg of pre-existence scriptures, but so far, all the scriptural words would match PERFECTLY with the person Jesus being “the Word” in John 1, while an “utterance” from God's mouth doesn't really make too much sense. We'd first have to figure out what it meant that an “utterance” from God became flesh. And then we'd have to figure out why one of the words God spoke would have glory as of His only begotten.
Mike,Your whole stance that Yahshua pre-existed his birth as an actual being seems simply based on the translated word phrase “the word”. Do you believe that every occurrence of “the word” in Scripture in reference to Yahshua as an existing being? If so, you are sadly mistaken, since I have gone through Scripture and read in context where “the word” appears in reference to Father Yahweh's word and it simply does not make any reference to “the word” being an actual being that existed apart from Him.
You also say the following:
Quote Our other option is claiming that someone's utterance could be said to have been with that someone – which is strange in and of itself. Why is it that you say that this is “strange in and of itself”? Are you saying this because, since you have concluded that this is “strange in and of itself” that this is totally unreasonable and can not be the truth or what? Do you also believe that Father Yahweh saying that His word going out from Him and coming back to Him is also “strange in and of itself”? Do you believe that when Father Yahweh says that His word goes out from Him and comes back to Him that He is speaking of His son Yahshua as a pre-existent being going out from Him and coming back to Him or what?
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Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ July 06 2012,17:38) Do you believe that every occurrence of “the word” in Scripture in reference to Yahshua as an existing being?
Not at all. Read my last post to Wakeup on this thread. I've been trying to tell Kerwin and others that “the word of God” doesn't ALWAYS refer to a word God has spoken. Sometimes, as in Rev 19:13, it refers to Jesus Christ.Kerwin and I are trying to find out if that phrase refers to Jesus in John 1:1 and 1:14.
But since you think it's normal for God's utterance to be with Him in the beginning, why not address my other points? What does it mean that an utterance of God “became flesh”? And why would a word that God spoke out of His mouth have the glory of His only begotten Son?
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