JOHN 1:1 who is the WORD?

[terraricca]

Quote (942767 @ July 01 2012,20:08)

Quote (terraricca @ June 30 2012,15:36) Marty Quote And he is before all of God's creation in the sense that God created every thing that he created by him and for him.  God's plan before the world began was to reconcile the world unto Himself through His Only Begotten Son and His Christ. I did not see this ; God's plan before the world began”  so what you saying is that before God start to create he already made arrangements to send his son ,not created yet ,no universe ,no angels ect , Satan did not yet existed and ad not yet rebel,or men not sin,??? , is this your message to me yes or no or what Hi Pierre: That is correct. Quote Gen 1:1 ¶ In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.   Gen 1:2   And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.   Quote Gen 1:7   And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which [were] under the firmament from the waters which [were] above the firmament: and it was so.   Gen 1:8   And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.   Quote Gen 1:31   And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, [it was] very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Quote Gen 2:4 ¶ These [are] the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,   Quote Gen 3:1 ¶ Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?   Love in Christ, Marty

MARTY

you believe this just because you believe that the beginning of all things start in Gen 1;1 is it

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ June 30 2012,23:27)

Mike; Each time the Word of God is mentioned in Scripture is means the Word that comes out of Jehovah's mouth. This includes Revelations 19:13. Jesus is called by the name of that which comes out of the mouth of God.

And is Jesus literally a word that God spoke, or a person who is called “the Word of God”? Which one?

[942767]

Hi Kerwin:

You say:

Quote

Scriptures=Writings. It is just traditions that lead us to say Scriptures. There is no mention of Jesus in 1 Corinthians 15:45-47. That interpretation is based on tradition, the idea Jesus is a being whose body consists of spirit and that Jesus is the first man of the new creation. The KJV also has added words that support it which are not in the Ancient Greek.

No, I do not believe that these scriptures are an interpretation based on tradition. The body of Jesus is “God's own flesh and blood”.

Quote

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Definition of “Only Begotten Son”, Greek “Monogenes”.

Number 3439

Transliteration:

monogenes {mon-og-en-ace'}

Word Origin:

from 3441 and 1096

TDNT:

4:737,606

Part of Speech:

adjective

Usage in the KJV:

only begotten 6, only 2, only child 1

Total: 9

Definition:

1.single of its kind, only A.used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents)
B.used of Christ, denotes the only begotten son of God

He was unike in the way he was begotten, and the following scripture states that God has redeemed us with His own blood:

Quote

Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

You say:

Quote

Scripture speaks of each man being composed two men; the first is the outer man who is made from the dust while the second man is the spirit that comes from God and gives life to the body; making it a living soul.

The scripture states that the first Adam's body was made of the dust of the ground, but God created him with seed to bear after his own kind, and the life of the flesh is the blood, and so the body of Jesus was the same as the body of the first Adam, but his blood was God's own blood. Jesus was born as an infant a living soul, and at this point he is like the first Adam, a living soul, but the Son of God and he was born of a woman under the Law of Moses and he was confirmed to be the Son of God according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead having obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross:

Quote

Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Quote

Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called [to be] an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, Rom 1:2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; Rom 1:4 And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

You say:

Quote

The Spirit came upon Mary just as the Spirit moved upon the face of the waters during the first day of creation and later landed upon her Son at his immersion. God’s power overshadowed her as some hoped Peter’s shadow would overshadow them in Acts 5:15 and a cloud overshadowed Jesus and his disciples after he was transfigured on the mount. Don’t you believe the Spirit moved upon the face of creation and God overshadowed Adam when he created the later; especially as later God stated his Spirit would no longer struggle with fallen flesh, Genesis 6:3? The Spirit of God landed on Adam and caused Eve to be conceived by the overshadowing power of God; a similar thing later happened with Jesus. Adam is all human despite having no mother or father of his flesh; Eve is all human despite having no mother of her flesh, and so also Jesus is all human despite having no father of his flesh

Jesus says this at the age of 12 prior to receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit:

Quote

Luk 2:48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing. Luk 2:49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?

He called God is Father, and so, how can you say he did not have a Father?

And then finally you say:

Quote

John the Baptist saw the Word in Jesus as Jesus was coming to be immersed by him and so stated that Jesus should immerse him and not the other way around. Jesus is the Son through the Word, which was even then in him.

Jesus was raised by parents under the Law of Moses, and so yes, he had been studying the Word of God and obeying it and was a Son of God through the Word of God. God confirmed him to be His Son at that time saying about him: “This is my Beloved Son in whom I am well pleased”. But he was a Son of God even from birth, and there was no Word in him at that time since he had neither done any good or evil. He was an infant, in innocence.

Quote

Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: Luk 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. Luk 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? Luk 1: 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Kerwin, I believe that you are getting off track. I hope this helps you to come back.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[942767]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 02 2012,01:14)

Quote (942767 @ June 30 2012,20:41) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 30 2012,10:14) Marty, Is it scriptural that John the Baptist called Jesus “the Lamb of God” – even though Jesus wasn't literally a lamb?  YES or NO? Yes. Hi Marty, And is it scriptural that Jesus is called by the name “the Word of God” – even though he is not literally a spoke word from God?   YES or NO?

Yes.

[942767]

Hi Pierre:

You say:

Quote

but Christ the son of God the creator does not mix with women and it says that his son was created BEFORE ALL CREATION ,AND THAT ALL THINGS WERE CREATED THROUGH HIM ,if this is true then Christ preexisted his birth as a man,

But no, the scripture does not say that “His Son was created before all of creation”. I believe that you are misreading the scripture. It states:

Quote

Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son: Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins: Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Love in Christ,
Marty

[942767]

Quote (terraricca @ July 02 2012,01:15)

Quote (942767 @ July 01 2012,20:08) Quote (terraricca @ June 30 2012,15:36) Marty Quote And he is before all of God's creation in the sense that God created every thing that he created by him and for him.  God's plan before the world began was to reconcile the world unto Himself through His Only Begotten Son and His Christ. I did not see this ; God's plan before the world began”  so what you saying is that before God start to create he already made arrangements to send his son ,not created yet ,no universe ,no angels ect , Satan did not yet existed and ad not yet rebel,or men not sin,??? , is this your message to me yes or no or what Hi Pierre: That is correct. Quote Gen 1:1 ¶ In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.   Gen 1:2   And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.   Quote Gen 1:7   And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which [were] under the firmament from the waters which [were] above the firmament: and it was so.   Gen 1:8   And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.   Quote Gen 1:31   And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, [it was] very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Quote Gen 2:4 ¶ These [are] the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,   Quote Gen 3:1 ¶ Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?   Love in Christ, Marty MARTY you believe this just because you believe that the beginning of all things start in Gen 1;1 is it

Hi Pierre:

Yes, I base my understanding on the bible which I believe to be the Word of God.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[terraricca]

Quote (942767 @ July 02 2012,16:33)

Hi Pierre: You say: Quote but Christ the son of God the creator does not mix with women and it says that his son was created BEFORE ALL CREATION ,AND THAT ALL THINGS WERE CREATED THROUGH HIM ,if this is true then Christ preexisted his birth as a man, But no, the scripture does not say that “His Son was created before all of creation”.  I believe that you are misreading the scripture. It states: Quote Col 1:12   Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:   Col 1:13   Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:   Col 1:14   In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:   Col 1:15   Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:   Love in Christ, Marty

Marty

Colossians 1:15
Context
NET ©
1 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn 2  over all creation, 3
NIV ©
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
NASB ©
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
NLT ©
Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. He existed before God made anything at all and is supreme over all creation.
MSG ©
We look at this Son and see the God who cannot be seen. We look at this Son and see God's original purpose in everything created.
BBE ©
Who is the image of the unseen God coming into existence before all living things;
NRSV ©
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;
NKJV ©
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
KJV
Who
is
(5748) the image
of the invisible
God
_, the firstborn
of every
creature
_:
NASB ©
He is the image
of the invisible
God
, the firstborn
of all
creation
.
GREEK
ov

R-NSMestin
(5748)
V-PXI-3Seikwn

N-NSFtou

T-GSMyeou

N-GSMtou

T-GSMaoratou

A-GSMprwtotokov

A-NSMpashv

A-GSFktisewv

N-GSF
NET © [draft] ITL
He is
the image
of the invisible
God
, the firstborn
over all
creation
,
NET ©
1 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn 2  over all creation, 3
NET © Notes
1 sn This passage has been typeset as poetry because many scholars regard this passage as poetic or hymnic. These terms are used broadly to refer to the genre of writing, not to the content. There are two broad criteria for determining if a passage is poetic or hymnic: “(a) stylistic: a certain rhythmical lilt when the passages are read aloud, the presence of parallelismus membrorum (i.e., an arrangement into couplets), the semblance of some metre, and the presence of rhetorical devices such as alliteration, chiasmus, and antithesis; and (b) linguistic: an unusual vocabulary, particularly the presence of theological terms, which is different from the surrounding context” (P. T. O’Brien, Philippians [NIGTC], 188-89). Classifying a passage as hymnic or poetic is important because understanding this genre can provide keys to interpretation. However, not all scholars agree that the above criteria are present in this passage, so the decision to typeset it as poetry should be viewed as a tentative decision about its genre.
2 tn The Greek term πρωτότοκος (prwtotokos) could refer either to first in order of time, such as a first born child, or it could refer to one who is preeminent in rank. M. J. Harris, Colossians and Philemon (EGGNT), 43, expresses the meaning of the word well: “The ‘firstborn’ was either the eldest child in a family or a person of preeminent rank. The use of this term to describe the Davidic king in Ps 88:28 LXX (=Ps 89:27 EVV), ‘I will also appoint him my firstborn (πρωτότοκον), the most exalted of the kings of the earth,’ indicates that it can denote supremacy in rank as well as priority in time. But whether the πρωτό- element in the word denotes time, rank, or both, the significance of the -τοκος element as indicating birth or origin (from τίκτω, give birth to) has been virtually lost except in ref. to lit. birth.” In Col 1:15 the emphasis is on the priority of Jesus’ rank as over and above creation (cf. 1:16 and the “for” clause referring to Jesus as Creator).
3 tn The genitive construction πάσης κτίσεως (pash” ktisew”) is a genitive of subordination and is therefore translated as “over all creation.” See ExSyn 103-4.

Quote

I believe that you are misreading the scripture. It states:

did I or did you not dig enough to find out if you have been mislead ?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ July 01 2012,16:23)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 02 2012,01:14) Quote (942767 @ June 30 2012,20:41) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 30 2012,10:14) Marty, Is it scriptural that John the Baptist called Jesus “the Lamb of God” – even though Jesus wasn't literally a lamb?  YES or NO? Yes. Hi Marty, And is it scriptural that Jesus is called by the name “the Word of God” – even though he is not literally a spoke word from God?   YES or NO? Yes.

And is it scriptural that Jesus is the only begotten of the Father? YES or NO?

[terraricca]

marty

some people built their understanding in the bible from their very own believe,

I BUILT MY BELIEVE AND ADAPT ALL OF MY UNDERSTANDING TO THE SCRIPTURES ,SO THAT I MAY HAVE THE TRUTH OF GOD IN MY HEART NOT THE SO CALL MEN UNDERSTANDING .

[942767]

Quote (terraricca @ July 02 2012,09:56)

marty some people built their understanding in the bible from their very own believe, I BUILT MY BELIEVE AND ADAPT ALL OF MY UNDERSTANDING TO THE SCRIPTURES ,SO THAT I MAY HAVE THE TRUTH OF GOD IN MY HEART NOT THE SO CALL MEN UNDERSTANDING .

Hi Pierre:

Then that is good. The bible is our source for our understanding, is it not?

You asked me if I believed because I believed that the beginnings start with Genesis 1, and yes, I do. I do not have any scriptures that say differently.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ July 01 2012,17:03)

You asked me if I believed because I believed that the beginnings start with Genesis 1, and yes, I do. I do not have any scriptures that say differently

John 1:1-3 speaks of an even earlier beginning – one BEFORE all things were created by God through His Word, right?

[942767]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 02 2012,09:54)

Quote (942767 @ July 01 2012,16:23) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 02 2012,01:14) Quote (942767 @ June 30 2012,20:41) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 30 2012,10:14) Marty, Is it scriptural that John the Baptist called Jesus “the Lamb of God” – even though Jesus wasn't literally a lamb?  YES or NO? Yes. Hi Marty, And is it scriptural that Jesus is called by the name “the Word of God” – even though he is not literally a spoke word from God?   YES or NO? Yes. And is it scriptural that Jesus is the only begotten of the Father?  YES or NO?

No.

[942767]

Quote (terraricca @ July 02 2012,09:51)

Quote (942767 @ July 02 2012,16:33) Hi Pierre: You say: Quote but Christ the son of God the creator does not mix with women and it says that his son was created BEFORE ALL CREATION ,AND THAT ALL THINGS WERE CREATED THROUGH HIM ,if this is true then Christ preexisted his birth as a man, But no, the scripture does not say that “His Son was created before all of creation”.  I believe that you are misreading the scripture. It states: Quote Col 1:12   Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:   Col 1:13   Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:   Col 1:14   In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:   Col 1:15   Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:   Love in Christ, Marty Marty Colossians 1:15 Context NET © 1 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn 2  over all creation, 3 NIV © He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. NASB © He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. NLT © Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. He existed before God made anything at all and is supreme over all creation. MSG © We look at this Son and see the God who cannot be seen. We look at this Son and see God's original purpose in everything created. BBE © Who is the image of the unseen God coming into existence before all living things; NRSV © He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; NKJV © He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. KJV Who is (5748) the image of the invisible God _, the firstborn of every creature _: NASB © He is the image of the invisible God , the firstborn of all creation . GREEK ov R-NSMestin (5748) V-PXI-3Seikwn N-NSFtou T-GSMyeou N-GSMtou T-GSMaoratou A-GSMprwtotokov A-NSMpashv A-GSFktisewv N-GSF NET © [draft] ITL He is the image of the invisible God , the firstborn over all creation , NET © 1 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn 2  over all creation, 3 NET © Notes 1 sn This passage has been typeset as poetry because many scholars regard this passage as poetic or hymnic. These terms are used broadly to refer to the genre of writing, not to the content. There are two broad criteria for determining if a passage is poetic or hymnic: “(a) stylistic: a certain rhythmical lilt when the passages are read aloud, the presence of parallelismus membrorum (i.e., an arrangement into couplets), the semblance of some metre, and the presence of rhetorical devices such as alliteration, chiasmus, and antithesis; and (b) linguistic: an unusual vocabulary, particularly the presence of theological terms, which is different from the surrounding context” (P. T. O’Brien, Philippians [NIGTC], 188-89). Classifying a passage as hymnic or poetic is important because understanding this genre can provide keys to interpretation. However, not all scholars agree that the above criteria are present in this passage, so the decision to typeset it as poetry should be viewed as a tentative decision about its genre. 2 tn The Greek term πρωτότοκος (prwtotokos) could refer either to first in order of time, such as a first born child, or it could refer to one who is preeminent in rank. M. J. Harris, Colossians and Philemon (EGGNT), 43, expresses the meaning of the word well: “The ‘firstborn’ was either the eldest child in a family or a person of preeminent rank. The use of this term to describe the Davidic king in Ps 88:28 LXX (=Ps 89:27 EVV), ‘I will also appoint him my firstborn (πρωτότοκον), the most exalted of the kings of the earth,’ indicates that it can denote supremacy in rank as well as priority in time. But whether the πρωτό- element in the word denotes time, rank, or both, the significance of the -τοκος element as indicating birth or origin (from τίκτω, give birth to) has been virtually lost except in ref. to lit. birth.” In Col 1:15 the emphasis is on the priority of Jesus’ rank as over and above creation (cf. 1:16 and the “for” clause referring to Jesus as Creator). 3 tn The genitive construction πάσης κτίσεως (pash” ktisew”) is a genitive of subordination and is therefore translated as “over all creation.” See ExSyn 103-4. Quote  I believe that you are misreading the scripture. It states: did I or did you not dig enough to find out if you have been mislead ?

Hi Pierre:

And so, which translation are you going to believe?

This is probably what is the closest to describe what is meant:

Quote

MSG © We look at this Son and see the God who cannot be seen. We look at this Son and see God's original purpose in everything created

Love in Christ,
Marty

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ July 01 2012,17:39)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 02 2012,09:54) Quote (942767 @ July 01 2012,16:23) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 02 2012,01:14) Quote (942767 @ June 30 2012,20:41) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 30 2012,10:14) Marty, Is it scriptural that John the Baptist called Jesus “the Lamb of God” – even though Jesus wasn't literally a lamb?  YES or NO? Yes. Hi Marty, And is it scriptural that Jesus is called by the name “the Word of God” – even though he is not literally a spoke word from God?   YES or NO? Yes. And is it scriptural that Jesus is the only begotten of the Father?  YES or NO? No.

What?

16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Are you sure?

[942767]

Quote (terraricca @ July 02 2012,09:56)

marty some people built their understanding in the bible from their very own believe, I BUILT MY BELIEVE AND ADAPT ALL OF MY UNDERSTANDING TO THE SCRIPTURES ,SO THAT I MAY HAVE THE TRUTH OF GOD IN MY HEART NOT THE SO CALL MEN UNDERSTANDING .

That is good, and so do I, and if I do not understand, I ask God what He meant so that I can teach His Word in truth.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[942767]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 02 2012,10:50)

Quote (942767 @ July 01 2012,17:39) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 02 2012,09:54) Quote (942767 @ July 01 2012,16:23) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 02 2012,01:14) Quote (942767 @ June 30 2012,20:41) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 30 2012,10:14) Marty, Is it scriptural that John the Baptist called Jesus “the Lamb of God” – even though Jesus wasn't literally a lamb?  YES or NO? Yes. Hi Marty, And is it scriptural that Jesus is called by the name “the Word of God” – even though he is not literally a spoke word from God?   YES or NO? Yes. And is it scriptural that Jesus is the only begotten of the Father?  YES or NO? No. What?   16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. Are you sure?

Hi Mike:

Jhn 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

Jhn 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

Jhn 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Yes, I am sure.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[terraricca]

Marty

Quote

Hi Pierre: And so, which translation are you going to believe? This is probably what is the closest to describe what is meant: Quote MSG © We look at this Son and see the God who cannot be seen. We look at this Son and see God's original purpose in everything created Love in Christ, Marty

what you quote as a good scripture his an opinion

[942767]

Quote (terraricca @ July 02 2012,11:13)

Marty Quote Hi Pierre: And so, which translation are you going to believe? This is probably what is the closest to describe what is meant: Quote MSG © We look at this Son and see the God who cannot be seen. We look at this Son and see God's original purpose in everything created Love in Christ, Marty what you quote as a good scripture his an opinion

Hi Pierre:

That is one of the translations that you posted.

Which translation do you believe?

You asked me for my understanding and so I have given it. You can disagree with me if you want and I will gladly be corrected if you can show me by the scriptures that what you are teaching is correct, but other than that I can only give you my understanding of the scriptures.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[terraricca]

Quote (942767 @ July 02 2012,18:20)

Quote (terraricca @ July 02 2012,11:13) Marty Quote Hi Pierre: And so, which translation are you going to believe? This is probably what is the closest to describe what is meant: Quote MSG © We look at this Son and see the God who cannot be seen. We look at this Son and see God's original purpose in everything created Love in Christ, Marty what you quote as a good scripture his an opinion Hi Pierre: That is one of the translations that you posted. Which translation do you believe? You asked me for my understanding and so I have given it.  You can disagree with me if you want and I will gladly be corrected if you can show me by the scriptures that what you are teaching is correct, but other than that I can only give you my understanding of the scriptures. Love in Christ, Marty

Marty

KJV
Who
is
(5748) the image
of the invisible
God
_, the firstborn
of every
creature
_:
NASB ©
He is the image
of the invisible
God
, the firstborn
of all
creation
.
GREEK
ov

R-NSMestin
(5748)
V-PXI-3Seikwn

N-NSFtou

T-GSMyeou

N-GSMtou

T-GSMaoratou

A-GSMprwtotokov

A-NSMpashv

A-GSFktisewv

N-GSF
NET © [draft] ITL
He is
the image
of the invisible
God
, the firstborn
over all
creation
,

let s take the Greek and the KJV and Net bible

it seems the two versions are in line with the Greek version word for word .

and Paul his in line with John 1;1-15 and with Prov;8;22-30

and with the words spoken by Jesus ;Jn 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

and

Jn 3:12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?

[942767]

Quote (terraricca @ July 02 2012,11:43)

Quote (942767 @ July 02 2012,18:20) Quote (terraricca @ July 02 2012,11:13) Marty Quote Hi Pierre: And so, which translation are you going to believe? This is probably what is the closest to describe what is meant: Quote MSG © We look at this Son and see the God who cannot be seen. We look at this Son and see God's original purpose in everything created Love in Christ, Marty what you quote as a good scripture his an opinion Hi Pierre: That is one of the translations that you posted. Which translation do you believe? You asked me for my understanding and so I have given it.  You can disagree with me if you want and I will gladly be corrected if you can show me by the scriptures that what you are teaching is correct, but other than that I can only give you my understanding of the scriptures. Love in Christ, Marty Marty KJV Who is (5748) the image of the invisible God _, the firstborn of every creature _: NASB © He is the image of the invisible God , the firstborn of all creation . GREEK ov R-NSMestin (5748) V-PXI-3Seikwn N-NSFtou T-GSMyeou N-GSMtou T-GSMaoratou A-GSMprwtotokov A-NSMpashv A-GSFktisewv N-GSF NET © [draft] ITL He is the image of the invisible God , the firstborn over all creation , let s take the Greek and the KJV and Net bible it seems the two versions are in line with the Greek version word for word . and Paul his in line with John 1;1-15 and with Prov;8;22-30 and with the words spoken by Jesus ;Jn 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. and Jn 3:12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?

So, none of these scriptures state that Jesus was the first creature created by God.

John the Baptist said that Jesus came after him, and he did. Did he not? Jesus was born, was he not?

And John said that he was preferred before him, because he was before him, and he was in that God's plan was to reconcile the world unto Himself through Jesus.

Please show me how Jesus came down from heaven.

Love in Christ,
Marty

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