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Hi T,
The Holy Spirit showed in Jesus all the abilities and nature of God as gifts and fruit [gal5, 1cor12]
We too should manifest the same things in Christ.Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ June 19 2012,11:53) Quote (Ed J @ June 19 2012,11:40) Hi Frank, Please try to refrain from name-calling while expressing your opinion.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Ed J,You are also a total ignoramus!
HA Ha ha ha.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 19 2012,22:43) Hi T,
The Holy Spirit showed in Jesus all the abilities and nature of God as gifts and fruit [gal5, 1cor12]
We too should manifest the same things in Christ.
NIf what you say is true ,then how come that Jesus was already that way wen he was twelve years old
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 19 2012,13:53) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ June 18 2012,20:28) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 19 2012,13:23) Let me try this another way Frank (Nick, you're invited to DIRECTLY address these points too): Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ June 18 2012,16:23) “In the beginning God had a Plan and the Plan was fixed as God's Decree and the Plan was fully expressive of
God's mind, and the Plan became embodied in the Man Messiah Jesus.”
Non-preexisters always want to add the word “IN” to 1:14. But the Word BECAME flesh, Frank. It did not come to be IN someone who already was flesh.1. Frank and Nick, does your understanding rely upon ADDING the word “IN” to John 1:14? YES or NO?
Also, your source completely ignores the fact that Jesus is most definitely named “the Word of God” in Rev 19. So, is “the word” mentioned in John 1:1 “God's plan”, or the one named “the word” in 19:13? This one is not a question, but what we aim to find out.
Well, we know that this particular word became flesh, and dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son.
2. Which better aligns with scripture:
A. The plan of God became flesh and dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son?
B. Jesus became flesh and dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son?
We know from 1 John 1:1 that the disciples saw this word with their own eyes, and touched this word with their own hands.
3. Which better aligns with scripture:
A. The plan of God was seen by human eyes and touched by human hands?
B. Jesus was seen by human eyes and touched by human hands?
Add to that the fact that John 1:3 says all things were created through this particular word. Compare that to Col 1:16, 1 Cor 8:6, and Heb 1:2, which say the same thing about Jesus.
4. CAN YOU REFUTE THAT ALL THINGS ARE SCRIPTURALLY SAID TO HAVE BEEN CREATED THROUGH THE WORD AND ARE ALSO SAID TO HAVE BEEN CREATED THROUGH JESUS?
Add to that the fact that John the Baptist said very particular words about this particular word in 1:15. He later says the exact same words about Jesus in 1:30.
5. DOES JOHN THE BAPTIST SAY THE SAME EXACT WORDS ABOUT THE WORD AND ABOUT JESUS? YES OR NO?
Now maybe it will be easier for you to see the five points I want you to address Frank. That way you can actually answer those points instead of “owning me”.
Ready, set, GO!
Mike,Try another way! Yours is not working!
Okay. I'll go slower for you:Frank, does it make sense to you that the “plan of God” became flesh? Does it make sense that “the plan of God” dwelled on earth with the glory of God's Son?
Mike,It is still YOUR WAY no matter how you say it!
Did Yeshua Pre-exist? Intro – Part I
~
There are many confusing statements in scriptures that lead people to believe that Yeshua Pre-existed. One controversy subject is the “creation” terminology in John 1. People see “in the beginning” and they think that it must refer to Gen 1:1 because of the “light” and “darkness” and “all things” language in the subsequent verses. The “creation” language is just an allusion to Genesis as one can see below similar wordings are used elsewhere.John 1:1 – “In the beginning was the word . . .”
Mark 1:1 – “The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ . . .”
I John 1:1 “That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)”.Nowhere is it suggested that he existed before his birth. Consider the record of his early childhood:
“Yeshua increased in wisdom, and stature, and in favor with God and man” (Luke 2:52).
How can these words possibly apply to a pre-existent angel, or the second person of a Triune G-d? Could such a one increase in wisdom and in favor with G-d? Assuming the impossible were true, and Yeshua pre-existed as an angel, on what grounds could it be said that he increased in favor with G-d merely because in his new state he grew from a baby to a youth!Even if Yeshua pre-existed, he would have to divest himself of all previous identity, lose all his former knowledge, power and standing with G-d, and had to establish this all again! What for? What would this accomplish? Is such belief logical?
If Christ pre-existed, how could he be described as the “seed of the woman”? Abraham was taught: “In thy seed shall all nations be blessed” (Genesis 22:18).
Would Abraham imagine that his seed (son) existed before he did? Of course not! Where is there any evidence in Genesis that Yeshua was then living in any form? There is none! Moses, Israel's law-giver and leader, who typified the coming Law-giver and Leader (Yeshua) told the Israelite:
“The Lord thy God will raise up unto Thee a Prophet FROM THE MIDST OF THEE, OF THY BRETHREN, LIKE UNTO ME; unto him ye shall hearken” (Deuteronomy 18:5).In the New Testament, Peter quoted those very words and applied them to Yeshua Christ (Acts 3:22; 7:37), and Paul taught: “Therefore it behooved him to be made like unto his brethren . . . .” (Hebrews 2:17).
Can the words of Moses above apply to a pre-existent angel? Could such a one be truthfully described as “raised up from the midst of thee,” “of thy brethren, like unto Moses”?
Consider also the preaching of the Apostles. Did they proclaim belief in a pre-existent angel who had assumed human form? They did not. Listen to Peter's preaching: “David . . . being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the FRUIT OF HIS LOINS, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne” (Acts 2:30).
Whom did David believe would sit upon his throne? An angel who was already in existence? No; he believed the one who would reign there would be “the fruit of his loins,” that is, a descendant. The boy born of Mary was a descendant of David, not a pre-existent angel assuming human form!
SOURCEDid Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist his Birth?
…
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 19 2012,13:58) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 18 2012,20:54) Hi MB,
You have had many replies from me and you may find answers in them.
I do not answer ones that are of shallow logic.
You will if I have to take these questions to the Hot Seat. Do you want me to do that again?
Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels (2 Timothy 2:23).Hi T,
Scripture says he showed wisdom beyond his years.
Such is not strong evidence that he was led by the Spirit.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 20 2012,15:31) Hi T,
Scripture says he showed wisdom beyond his years.
Such is not strong evidence that he was led by the Spirit.
Nand of cause this was in the word of his father ,that he was so wisdom in ,I wander how this was
if it is not by the holy spirit ,then we all should be able to understand what a twelve year old can do or say ,right ???but even the elders were supprisedQuote (Frank4YAHWEH @ June 19 2012,12:48) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 19 2012,13:53)
Okay. I'll go slower for you:Frank, does it make sense to you that the “plan of God” became flesh? Does it make sense that “the plan of God” dwelled on earth with the glory of God's Son?
Mike,It is still YOUR WAY no matter how you say it!
Frank, you post millions of words on this site, yet won't actually stand and defend any of them. I find that odd.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 18 2012,21:06) Hi MB,
But it is likely I will not know the answers to any of your questions again. Yes Nick, I'm sure your answer to all questions would be “I don't know”.Look, I don't want to be the guy trying to force someone or boss them around, Nick. What I want is very simple: If you cannot show SCRIPTURALLY where something I've posted is CONTRARY to what the scriptures teach, then don't say anything at all to me.
For example, scripture clearly teaches about lesser gods, of which Jehovah is God. So I don't want to see anymore flippant and snide remarks about lesser gods……………UNLESS you can scripturally show me I've spoken in error.
Another example is your comments about logic. You act as if the truth must be illogical mish-mash, and if someone else's doctrine makes sense, it must be false.
Forgive me, but that is simply retarded, Nick.Why on earth would you try to belittle me and Pierre and t8 simply because our doctrine not only aligns with every scripture, but makes perfect, logical sense in the process? If YOU want to keep your nonsensical doctrine that requires something that was God becoming someone who isn't God anymore (God becomes God's own Son
), then keep that doctrine. But don't try to insult us just because YOUR doctrine is jibberish and ours makes perfect sense. The “logic” example is often coupled with the famous “the Spirit must show you” crap. But that is EXACTLY what the Trinitarians say to those who can't understand how the Son of God can be the very God he is the Son of. Now unless you're personally willing to admit that the Trinitarians might be right, and that the Spirit just hasn't showed YOU the Trinity Doctrine yet, then back off this “spirit must show you” crap. The Spirit will NEVER show any of us something that contradicts God's written word. After all, scripture cannot be broken, and not one little pen stroke will disappear until the end comes.
Nick, in a nutshell, what I want and expect from you is to keep your insulting, condescending comments to yourself, and only comment to me when and if you have scriptures to show that what I posted was scripturally inaccurate. I don't mind being shown my misunderstandings, but show me with SCRIPTURE – not snippy little put downs, okay?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 20 2012,09:53) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ June 19 2012,12:48) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 19 2012,13:53)
Okay. I'll go slower for you:Frank, does it make sense to you that the “plan of God” became flesh? Does it make sense that “the plan of God” dwelled on earth with the glory of God's Son?
Mike,It is still YOUR WAY no matter how you say it!
Frank, you post millions of words on this site, yet won't actually stand and defend any of them. I find that odd.
Mike,Our kind are a peculiar people, are we not?
I'm not sure “peculiar” is the word I would use.
But you're not all bad, Frank. I have learned from your posts about the Trinity Doctrine and God's Name, etc.
I still consider you a brother in that we both worship and serve only one God, Yahweh, and hold His only begotten Son in the highest esteem as our Lord, whom Yahweh set up over us and the church.
Yeah right! Mike, Pierre and t8's teaching “not only aligns with every scripture, but makes perfect, logical sense in the process!”
They teach that THEIR “Jesus” pre-existed it's birth as “a god” then emptied itself of being “a god” and became a man that has no power whatsoever!
I say “no power whatsoever”, simply because they do not even realize that the words translated as “god” in Scripture in fact designate power, strength or might of which they openly admit that THEIR “god” emptied itself of.
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