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No Nick,
Many scriptures bear witness to the facts. It's just that I align my beliefs with those facts, to which the scriptures bear witness.
Again, comments like that are senseless and petty. Dig deeper.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 30 2012,11:00) Apparently not unless I'm agreeing with HIM. 
Ed, I know that we don't truly agree anyway. In words, yes, but in reality, no.
(1)Unless of course you believe that Jesus was the first being God ever created – the one through whom God then created all other things.
(2)This is what I believe, and many scriptures bear witness.
(3)I believe that the living, individual entity of Jesus/God's Son dwelled with God in the form of God before emptying himself to be sent down from heaven by God on a mission of salvation.
(4)I think your belief aligns better with Nick's. (5)Anyway, it was fun to PRETEND to agree with each other for a brief moment, eh?
peace
Hi Mike,1) You're right, I don't agree with that, (2)and Scripture doesn't say that either.
3) Dwelled in the form of God means something else to you.
To you, it means instead dwelled in the form of an Angel.4) Yes, I would agree with that as well.
5) Conversing in a positive way is always best!Your friend
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgUh oh, Nick. Ed's beliefs are more aligned with YOURS! That must mean YOU GUYS are the ones on the wide road!
See what I mean, Nick? Those kinds of comments are absolutely senseless and useless.
Quote (kerwin @ April 30 2012,10:01) Charity, 'Even a child is known by whether there is conduct is loving”. Your conduct is not; even though you may think it is. If it was then you would not level false accusations or judge by your measures.
God judged the hearts of Cain and Abel when they sacrificed and Cain's motivations were unloving while Abel's demonstrated love.
So do you believe it is right to reward the hater as well as the lover?
excuse me, Cain A TILLER OF THE GROUND! remember the piunishment! bought an offering of the fruit of the ground, an Abel A SHEPERD OF THE SHEEP, preacher, bought the best blood sacrifice….an Cain was humiliated for bringing his offering to the table…..maybe Cain's offering was more sensible…? an Jesus would have lived? tormenting brothers about about how worthy they are is not loving…This will go on till people an the stupidity of creating Gods Nature an specking self owned thoughts as his voice stops.King James Version (KJV)
Genesis –Gen 4:1¶And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.
Gen 4:2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.
Gen 4:3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.
Gen 4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
Gen 4:5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
(he was serious in pleasing God) the heart was pure!An to also note Law broken, that older child”s god given credibility to rule was given over to serve the younger…Abel commenced blood sacrificing an offering.. against cain first born… fruits of the ground….Jesus may have lived to a grey head old man if Cain's barley was prefered an favored…..this to could have been as pleasing to the God that latter called of the sacrifice an offering anyway…
Hi MB,
Have you yet accepted that Jesus was not just a SPOKESPERSON FOR GOD
but that God's Spirit SPOKE THROUGH HIM?your got to be Joking! a man living till he be hundred an sixty years old before he gets a female pregnant?
Despite no logic, an the trusting in all these words… what age do you the female became fertile?Only “one” child is worthy of being noted as the worlds are framed by WORDS. Twas Rather an un fair world!
Gen 5:1¶This [is] the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
Gen 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
Gen 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat [a son] in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
Gen 5:4 And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.
Gen 5:6¶And Seth lived an hundred and five years, and begat Enos:
Gen 5:7 And Seth lived after he begat Enos eight hundred and seven years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:8 And all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years: and he died.
Gen 5:9¶And Enos lived ninety years, and begat Cainan:
Gen 5:10 And Enos lived after he begat Cainan eight hundred and fifteen years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:11 And all the days of Enos were nine hundred and five years: and he died.
Gen 5:12¶And Cainan lived seventy years, and begat Mahalaleel:
Gen 5:13 And Cainan lived after he begat Mahalaleel eight hundred and forty years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:14 And all the days of Cainan were nine hundred and ten years: and he died.
Gen 5:15¶And Mahalaleel lived sixty and five years, and begat Jared:
Gen 5:16 And Mahalaleel lived after he begat Jared eight hundred and thirty years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:17 And all the days of Mahalaleel were eight hundred ninety and five years: and he died.
Gen 5:18¶And Jared lived an hundred sixty and two years, and he begat Enoch:
Gen 5:19 And Jared lived after he begat Enoch eight hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:20 And all the days of Jared were nine hundred sixty and two years: and he died.
Gen 5:21¶And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah:
Gen 5:22 And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:
Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he [was] not; for God took him.
Gen 5:25¶And Methuselah lived an hundred eighty and seven years, and begat Lamech:
Gen 5:26 And Methuselah lived after he begat Lamech seven hundred eighty and two years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:27 And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died.
Gen 5:28¶And Lamech lived an hundred eighty and two years, and begat a son:
Gen 5:29 And he called his name Noah, saying, This [same] shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the LORD hath cursed.
Gen 5:30 And Lamech lived after he begat Noah five hundred ninety and five years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:31 And all the days of Lamech were seven hundred seventy and seven years: and he died.
Gen 5:32¶And Noah was five hundred years old: and Noah begat Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
Return to TopKing James Version).”
Hbr 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Hbr 11:4¶By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
Hi MB,
Once you look past the flesh and know the treasure that spoke from him within things may get clearerQuote (Nick Hassan @ April 29 2012,10:37) Hi 94,
You say
“Of course, he came down from heaven. He was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin mary, and was born a living soul and raised by parents under the Law of Moses, and his spirit came from heaven in that it was formed within him as he obeyed the Word of God without sin event unto death on the cross.”Any scriptures support the view of spirits FORMING by obedience?
Hi Nick:My statement is based on the following scriptures:
Quote 1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit. Quote John 6:63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. Quote Rom 1:1 ¶ Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called [to be] an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, Rom 1:2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Rom 1:4 And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
Quote Jer 31:31 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people
Quote c 12:1 ¶ The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him. And there are other scriptures which would support the conclusion that God forms our spirit through his Word. How is the world to know that we are His children?
Love in Christ,
MartyLove in Christ,
MartyHi 94,
The Spirit of God transforms the hearts and minds of those reborn from above IF they submit to the process.Most are stillborn preferring to rely on logic and to wrestle with truth.
gal 4.19-20
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 30 2012,14:05) Hi 94,
The Spirit of God transforms the hearts and minds of those reborn from above IF they submit to the process.Most are stillborn preferring to rely on logic and to wrestle with truth.
gal 4.19-20
I am not the judge. I can only obey God for myself.Love in Christ,
MartyHi 94,
IF you have been reborn from above then you must feed on the Word.
The Spirit can remind you of the words of Jesus Christ and align them for you.Quote (charity @ April 30 2012,08:22) Quote (jammin @ April 29 2012,23:25) i believe what the bible said charity and not opinions from men
The Gospel of John is an opinion. It'S never been Illegal to consume wandering mentality, build armiesThe Word “Word”, translated from the english language, which was birthed around 1066.
Only the western cultures rattle on with the confusion…
Because of Jeruserlem being the Inheritance, An Solomon's foriegn wives they had to start him from the beginning, or the family tree will be trimed back or cut down.
The Jewish are NOT self concentered….THE WORLD NEEDS TO BE ASHAMED!! they are an example of a family that pass's down the Jewels, whole things cant be divided, they went down threw the first born, but hence.. that became THE problem of favoring…an law pushed its way in…on behalf of the un favored but hence legal choice….
If a man wants to leave his youngest son all he owns…is it his right?
what dose the “word” Jesus say about Cain&Abel?What was wrong with Cain that everything he offered was not good enough in the sight of his parents? God? that they should torment him as less favored, till he arrive At an emotional… chemical reaction an destroy”s his little goddie two shoe's brother via stored up anxiety an living the rejection…?
i believe what the bible says charity.the word in john 1.14-18 is theson of GOD. not the father or the HS
case closedQuote (kerwin @ April 29 2012,13:34) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 29 2012,07:49) Quote (kerwin @ April 29 2012,10:57) Frank, The Greek language is not like the English language as Greek nouns and pronouns have a gender. The gender of logos and associated pronouns is male. Some translators chose to keep the gender when translating while others do not. I believe it is more correct to keep it since Scripture is known to personalize abstract concepts such as Wisdom, the Word, and the Light.
Knowing somewhat of the mindset from reports of the handling of the same subject by Philo of Alexander and the Peshita; the words “the Word was with God” were possibly written to reveal the Word is not an actual person; including God. Those that lack knowledge and those that are corrupt misinterpret it. You and others see it for what is.
John 1:6-13 is not even teaching of the Word but it is teaching of the Light that is in the Word. Is Jesus in Jesus?; Of course not. John is not the Light because the Life in the Word is the Light that is coming into the World. The Light comes into the world when the Word of God becomes Jesus. It does not transform into Jesus and so stop being the Word; as some seem to believe. Instead the Word, and the Light therein, which were non-person personification have now been made into person personification in Jesus of Nazareth.
Even using the Trinitarian choice to keep the Greek pronoun gender; it is clear to those with eyes to see and ears to hear that John 1:1-16 is only indirectly speaking of Jesus but is directly speaking of the Word that comes out of the mouth of God; or the Light that is in that Word.
Compare The Following Translation:1. “All things were made by it” (Tyndale, 1534)
2. “The worde … All things were made by the same” (Coverdale, 1535)
3. “All things were made by it and without it nothing was made” (Matthews’ Bible, 1537)
4. “All things were made by it and without it was made nothing that was made” (The Great Bible, 1539)
5. “All things were made by it” (Taverner NT, 1540)
6. “All things were made by it”(Whittingham, 1557)
7. “All things were made by it” (The Geneva Bible, 1560)
8. “All things were made by it” (Bishops’ Bible, 1568)
9. “All things were made by it” (Tomson NT, 1607)
10. “Nor can anything be produced that has been made without it [Reason]” (John LeClerc, 1701)
11. “The word … through the same all things were made” (Mortimer, 1761)
12. “In the beginning was Wisdom … All things were made by it” (Wakefield NT, 1791)
13. “The Word … All things were made by it” (Alexander Campbell, founder of the Church of Christ, 1826)
14. “The Word … All things were formed by it” (Dickinson, A New and Corrected Version of the NT, 1833)
15. “All things were made by it” (Barnard, 1847)
16. “Through it [the logos] everything was done” (Wilson, Emphatic Diaglott, 1864)
17. “All things through it arose into being” (Folsom, 1869)
18. “All things were made through it” (Sharpe, Revision of the Authorized English Version, 1898)
19. “All things were made by the Love thought” (Goddard, 1916)
20. “All things came into being in this God-conception and apart from it came not anything into being that came into being” (Overbury, 1925)
21. “All came into being through it” (Knoch, 1926)
22. “The word … the living expression of the Father’s thought” (Blount, Half Hours with John’sGospel, 1930)
23. “The word was god” (C.C. Torrey, The Four Gospels, 1933)
24. “Through the divine reason all things came into being” (Wade, The Documents of the NT Translated, 1934)
25. “Without it nothing created sprang into existence” (Johannes Greber, 1937)
26. “It was in the beginning with God, by its activity all things came into being” (Martin Dibelius, The Message of Jesus Christ, translated by F.C. Grant, 1939)
27. “Through its agency all things came into being and apart from it has not one thing come to be” (William Temple, Archbishop of Canterbury, Readings from St. John’s Gospel, 1939)
28. “The energizing mind was in existence from the very beginning” (Crofts, The Four Gospels, 1949)
29. “First there was the Thought and the Thought was in God … He, him” (Hoare, Translation from the Greek, 1949)
30. “In the beginning God expressed Himself … That personal expression, that word … He” (J.B. Philips, NT in Modern English, 1958)
31. “All was done through it” (Tomanek, 1958)
32. “The Word was the life principle [in creation]” (William Barclay, NT, 1969)
33. “This same idea was at home with God when life began … He” (Jordan, Cottonpatch Version, 1970)
34. “All things became what they are through the Word” (Dale, NT, 1973)
35. “Within the Word was life” (Edington, 1976)
36. “It was his last werd. Ony it come first” (Gospels in Scouse, 1977)
37. “By it everything had being, and without it nothing had being” (Schonfield, The Original NT, 1985)
38. “All things were made through the Word” (Inclusive Language Lectionary, 1986)
39. “In the beginning was the Plan of Yahweh. All things were done according to it” (Hawkins, Book of Yahweh, 1987)
40. “All things happened through it” (Gaus, Unvarnished NT, 1991)
41. “In the beginning was the divine word and wisdom … everything came to be by means of it” (Robert Miller, The Complete Gospels, Annotated Scholars’ Version, 1992
Frank,Translating the Greek genders to neuters is also acceptable as it does not meaningfully change the message and takes into account the lack of gendered nouns and pronouns in the English language. Either way the message is understandable to those who have ears to hear and eyes to see.
Kerwin,My disagreement with Nick's post is that he believes that the word phrase “only begotten” in Yahchanan [John] 1:14 in the translation that he presented was in reference to Father Yahweh's word being “the only begotten”. He came to this conclusion simply because the word “son” was not mentioned in that one specific verse as if one is to use one single verse out of context with Scripture as a whole and build their own religious belief based on that one verse of Scripture. This is exactly how many false religious beliefs start and in turn they conclude that their particular belief is in fact based on what Scripture says from that one single verse taken out of context. In fact, I believe that this is exactly how Satan [the tempter, devil] himself works in taking Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word out of context. This can be clearly seen in his use of Father Yahweh inspired prophetic word out of context with what Yahweh has said as a whole when attempting to tempt Yahshua after his fasting in the wilderness. Note this was done right after Father Yahweh had proclaimed him to be His son in whom he was very well pleased with and loved:
Then Yahshua was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted there by the devil. For forty days and forty nights he fasted and became very hungry. During that time the devil came and said to him, “If you are the son of Yahweh, tell these stones to become loaves of bread.”
Satan knew that Ya
hshua was the son of Yahweh and that he was given all power [authority] in heaven and in the earth and that it was possible for him to do just that with the power that he was given.But Yahshua told him, “No! The Scriptures say, 'People do not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of Yahweh.'” Then the devil took him to the set apart city, Yerusalem, to the highest point of the Temple, and said, “If you are the son of Yahweh, jump off! For the Scriptures say, 'He will order His malakim to protect you. And they will hold you up with their hands so you won't even hurt your foot on a stone.'”
Here it is quite clear how Satan used Scripture out of context as a whole to tempt and attempt to deceive Yahshua.
Yahshua responded, “The Scriptures also say, 'You must not test Yahweh your Mighty One.'”
Here Yahshua used Scripture as a whole and was not concentrating on one particular thing that his and our Father Yahweh had said, but instead he was living BY EVERY WORD that his and our Father Yahweh had said. No, Yahshua is not Father Yahweh's word, but the spokesmen of His word and he in turned lived by His word. He was certainly not living by himself as LITERALLY being his and our Father Yahweh's “Word” personified.
Next the devil took him to the peak of a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their esteem. “I will give it all to you,” he said, “if you will kneel down and worship me.” “Get out of here, Satan,” Yahshua told him. “For the Scriptures say, 'You must worship Yahweh your Mighty One and serve only Him.'” Then the devil went away, and malakim came and took care of Yahshua.
Here a lesson can be learned by taking Yahshua's example to fight of the wiles of the devil and resisting Him in his twisting Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word and in turn causing Satan to flee.
Put on the whole armor of Yahweh, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we are not fighting against flesh-and-blood enemies, but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places. Therefore, put on every piece of Yahweh's armor so you will be able to resist the enemy in the time of evil. Then after the battle you will still be standing firm. Stand your ground, putting on the belt of truth and the body armor of Yahweh's righteousness. For shoes, put on the peace that comes from the glad tidings so that you will be fully prepared. In addition to all of these, hold up the shield of belief to stop the fiery arrows of the devil. Put on redemption as your helmet, and take the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of Yahweh. Commune in the Spirit [WHICH IS THE WORD OF YAHWEH] at all times and on every occasion. Stay alert and be persistent in your communing for all believers everywhere.
“So humble yourselves before Yahweh. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.”
I do not find the personification of Father Yahweh's word acceptable in Yahchanan chapter one. It has caused must confusion and contradiction among the brethren and Scripture clearly teaches that Father Yahweh is not the author of confusion.
What does “logos” mean? According to the Greek Lexicon to the New Testament “logos” means…
Strong's #3056 logos λογος log'-os
1. of speech
a. a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea
b. what someone has said
1. a word
2. the sayings of God
3. decree, mandate or order
4. of the moral precepts given by God
5. Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets
6. what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim
c. discourse
1. the act of speaking, speech
2. the faculty of speech, skill and practice in speaking
3. a kind or style of speaking
4. a continuous speaking discourse – instruction
d. doctrine, teaching
e. anything reported in speech; a narration, narrative
f. matter under discussion, thing spoken of, affair, a matter in dispute, case, suit at law
g. the thing spoken of or talked about; event, deed
2. its use as respect to the MIND alone
a. reason, the mental faculty of thinking, meditating, reasoning, calculating
b. account, i.e. regard, consideration
c. account, i.e. reckoning, score
d. account, i.e. answer or explanation in reference to judgment
e. relation, i.e. with whom as judge we stand in relation
1. reason would
f. reason, cause, groundLogos – from the Liddell-Scott-Jones Greek Lexicon:
• Logos; logos, ho: (A) the word or that by which the inward thought is expressed (Latin: oratio), and, (B) the inward thought itself (Latin: ratio.)
• Latin: vox, oratio, that which is said or spoken.
• Latin: ratio, thought, reason.
• Ho LOGOS, the Logos or Word, comprising both senses of Thought and Word. (New Testament.)Logos is translated a variety of ways in the King James Version a total of 330 times:
word 225, saying 50, account 8, speech 8, thing 5, not translated 2, miscellaneous 32
As you can see, the word “logos” in so many words means “the outward expression of thought,” a “saying or speech” hence “word.” It appears over 300 times in the Apostolic Writings and is only capitalized (wrongly) as a person in John 1. The capital is an editorial addition of translators. This word “logos” was used in the Septuagint (LXX – the Greek translation of the Tanakh done by Israelites around 200 BCE) as a translation for the word “dabar” some 1500 times. It never describes a literal person. This is important because, in order to have a proper understanding of the word logos we must first have a proper understanding of the word dabar; the Hebrew word for which logos was based on. Remember Yahchanan was a Hebrew and wrote from a Hebraic perspective, NOT Greek! Let’s look at the meaning of dabar (modern Heb. devar). The Hebrew Lexicon to the Old Testament states the following:
Strong’s #H1697 dabar rbd daw-baw'
1. speech, word, speaking, thing
a. speech
b. saying, utterance
c. word, words
d. business, occupation, acts, matter, case, something, manner (by extension)
[/B] The Holman Illustrated Bible Dictionary, pg. 1682 defines “dabar” as such:“Dabar is the primary Hebrew expression for “word.” It has various meanings and can refer to a spoken utterance, a saying, a command, a speech, or a story—linguistic communication in general. 3
Dabar is translated a variety of ways in the King James Version a total of 1439 times:
word 807, thing 231, matter 63, acts 51, chronicles 38, saying 25, commandment 20, miscellaneous 204
Based on the definitions given, the basic Hebraic meaning of “dabar” is “the express communication of thoughts into words.” For example the phrase “the word (dabar) of [Yahweh]” simply means “the expressed thoughts, oracles or commands of [Yahweh].” Scriptural examples:
Gen 15:1 After these things (dabar) the word (dabar) of [Yahweh] came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
In this verse dabar is translated things and word.
Ex 34:28 And he was there with YHWH forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words (dabar) of the covenant, the ten commandments (dabar).
In this verse dabar is translated as commandments and words. This also shows that [Yahweh]’s words and commandments are synonymous (Ps 103:20, Ps 119:172). [Yahweh]’s dabar (or logos) in Greek is His expressed thoughts, spoken word or command! The verification of this is very simple. Please refer to any good English Dictionary. Under the word 'Decalogue' you will find the meaning; “The Ten Commandments”, (deka = ten; logous = commands). The dictionary al
so translates the word 'Logos' as “discourse, reason, (rarely) word”.Since the “word” is the spoken thoughts or commands of [Yahweh] it could not be a second member of the “godhead.” So what about the phrase ³και θεος ην `ο λογος (kai theos en ho logos)” translated “the word was god” or “god was the word?” Based on the grammar of the Greek, [Yahchanan] is not trying to say the word is “[Yahweh] {'God'}.” [Yahchanan] uses ho theos when speaking about the one true [Yahweh] {'God} but here the definite article “ho (the)” is missing. It’s not present because here “theos” is considered a predicate or adjective of the preceding subject. Theos is used to describe the nature, quality, attribute or property of the subject which is the “word.” In this instance the One true [Almighty]'s spoken command or thoughts is [sublime], powerful or mighty. A more literal translation would read:
In the beginning was the word (spoken thoughts/command), and the word (spoken thoughts/command) was with [Yahweh], and the word (spoken thoughts/command) was [sublime]/powerful/mighty.
This translation is based upon the usage of the Greek grammar and structure and the Hebraic understanding. There are translations that do not follow the traditional Trinitarian influence! Some examples are:
Bible – James Moffatt Translation, The: “The Logos existed in the very beginning, the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine.”
Complete Bible – An American Translation (Smith-Goodspeed), The:
“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.
Authentic New Testament, The: “In the beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God. So the Word was divine.”
Scriptures (ISR), The: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Elohim, and the Word was Elohim.”
Theos is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew word “elohim.” Elohim is a Hebrew word that can be used as a noun, adjective or predicate. For example:
Genesis 30:8 So Rachel said, “With mighty (Heb. elohim) wrestlings I have wrestled with my sister, and I have indeed prevailed.” And she named him Naphtali.
1 Samuel 14:15 And there was a trembling in the camp, in the field, and among all the people. Even the garrison and the raiders trembled, and the earth quaked so that it became a great (Heb. elohim) trembling.
Genesis 23:6 Hear us, my lord: thou art a mighty (Heb. elohim) prince among us: in the choice of our sepulchres bury thy dead; none of us shall withhold from thee his sepulchre, but that thou mayest bury thy dead.
For more on this subject see:
[PDF] The Hebraic Usage Of The Word “God”The Most High’s word was with Him in the beginning the same way his wisdom was with Him.
Does not wisdom call, And understanding lift up her voice? On top of the heights beside the way, Where the paths meet, she takes her stand; Beside the gates, at the opening to the city, At the entrance of the doors, she cries out … Yahweh possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old. From everlasting I was established, From the beginning, from the earliest times of the earth. When there were no depths I was brought forth, When there were no springs abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills I was brought forth; While He had not yet made the earth and the fields, Nor the first dust of the world. When He established the heavens, I was there, When He inscribed a circle on the face of the deep, When He made firm the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed, When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth; Then I was beside Him, as a master workman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him, … (Proverbs 8:1-30).
Now if you noticed wisdom is depicted as a woman separate from Yahweh and said to be with Him. Oddly no one argues that wisdom was a member of a godhead. Why not? Because students of the bible recognize that wisdom is simply an attribute of Yahweh being personified. Remember Yahweh said …
See now that I, even I, am He, and there is no mighty one [god] with Me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of My hand (Deuteronomy 32:39).
“You are My witnesses,” declares YHWH, “And My servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe Me and understand that I am He and that before Me there was no mighty one [“god” or “a god”] formed, And there will be none after Me.
No. Yahshua was not a mighty one [“a god”] that was with his and our Father Yahweh in the beginning!
Now you might be saying, but Yahchanan {John] used “He” when referring to the “logos (word)” in Yahchanan [John] 1:2-4. Again, the Greek word logos is a something not a someone.
Let’s look at Yahchanan [John] 1:2-5 and see what it says:
The same (outou – 3778) was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him (autou – 846); and without him (autou – 846) was not any thing made that was made. In him (autw – 846) was life; and the life was the light of men.
There are two Greek words in this sentence that are very important. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it (auto – 846) not. (KJV)
3778. houtos outoj hoo'-tos from the article 3588 and 846; 1) this, these, etc.
846 autos autoj ow-tos' 1) himself, herself, themselves, itself 2) he, she, it 3) the same.
Now if you will notice, Yahchanan [John] uses the Greek word autos 4 times in these set of verses. It is translated 3 times as “him” and 1 time as “it.” Now, ask yourself, why did translators translate autos “he” then turn around and translate it as “it” if they’re still talking about the same “word” in verse 5? Based on the word “autos”, in speaking, should determine how it should be translated. Since we already know that “logos” is a something and NOT a someone, “autos” should have been translated “it” in all 4 occurrences. So actually this verse should read …
All things were made by it (autou – 846); and without it (autou – 846) was not any thing made that was made. In it (autw – 846) was life; and the life was the light of men.
This translation is HISTORICALLY how this verse was originally translated in the earlier English Bibles before the KJV. William Tyndale gave us our first English translation based upon the Hebrew and Greek (not the Latin Vulgate). His New Testament was published in 1526 and revised to its final state in 1534. Tyndale's translation of John 1:3-4 reads:
All things were made by it, and without it, was made nothing that was made. In it was life, and the life was the light of men.
As you can see, Tyndale used “it” instead of “him.” The Geneva Bible of 1560 uses “it” instead of “him.” The actual verses in the Geneva Bible read as such:
All things were made by “it” and without “it” was made nothing that was made. In it was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in the darkness, and the darkness comprehended it not.
Another translation that doesn’t follow the traditional Catholic/Christianity trinity bias translations is the Emphatic Diaglott (translated in 1865 by B.F. Wilson). It reads:
In the Beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with GOD, and the Logos was God. This was in the Beginning with GOD. Through it every thing was done; and without it not even one thing was done, which has been done. In it was Life; and the LIFE WAS the LIGHT of MEN. And the LIGHT shone in DARKNESS; and the DARKNESS apprehended It not.
T
his is one of the better translations of these verses I’ve read. Plus, based on the whole of the Scriptures, this is the most accurate. Remember, line upon line, precept upon precept. Let’s see how this translation lines up with the Tanakh.So what is Yahchanan telling us in these verses? When one remembers the definition of dabar and logos, you can easily see how the “word (thoughts expressed verbally or and outward expression of inward thoughts and reason; a command) can be in the beginning; just as wisdom was in the beginning (Prov 8:22-31). One author (identity unknown) wrote …
“Similar language is found in Proverbs chapter eight where wisdom is personified as a woman. In fact, wisdom is personified as a woman throughout the opening chapters of Proverbs. However, in this particular place there is a definite parallel expression of idea with that contained in Genesis one and John one for in verse 22 we have the following:
[Yahweh] possessed (or created as the Hebrew word primarily means — see Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance #7069.) me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old.” Note the phrase “in the beginning!” Now read verses 23-36 noting verse 30 and comparing this with John 1:1-2. Throughout these verses wisdom is talking as a woman existing separately from and throughout the same time period as YHWH. However, it is quite obvious that this must be figurative language representing YHWH’s wisdom itself and not really a separate being. Of course, maybe we should adopt the theory that there are really four persons in the godhead instead of three and that the fourth one is a woman named Wisdom! By the way, did you pay particular attention to verse 30 as was directed above? It says,
‘Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before Him;’”
Yahweh’s word and wisdom are attributes of His that was with Him and is Him. His word is powerful, sublime and mighty because it is His word. Plain & simple! Now let’s look at Yahchanan 1:3:
All things were made by it, and without it, was made nothing that was made.
How did YAH create the universe? Again, we must go to the Hebrew Scriptures for the answer to this question.
Let them praise the name of YHWH: for He commanded, and they were created (Psalm 148:5).
This verse tells us that Yahweh commanded the universe to come into existence. To command means to give the word or charge.
By the word (dabar) of Yahweh were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth (Psalm 33:6) … For He spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast (Verse 33::9).
Again, Yahweh spoke and used the words and breath of His mouth to create the universe. This can be verified by simply going back to the beginning.
Gen 1:3 And Yahweh said, “Let there be light: and there was light.”
This verse shows Yahweh creating by speaking or giving the command. And yes, this is Yahweh (see: Who Is The Creator? ). Throughout Genesis this is how Yahweh created the universe (Gen.1:3,6,9,11,14,20, and 24). All these passages began with the statement, “And Yahweh said.” Yahweh spoke and it was done. Even the writer of Hebrews confirms that Yahweh used His word to create the universe:
By trusting, we understand that the universe was created through a spoken word of Yahweh, so that what is seen did not come into being out of existing phenomena. (Hebrews 11:3 – CJB)
This understanding agrees perfectly with Yahchanan 1:3. Remember “dabar” and “logos” means an outward expression of inward thoughts or reason. This is exactly what Proverbs tells us Yahweh used when He created.
Yahweh by wisdom (chokmah) hath founded the earth; by understanding (tabunah) hath he established the heavens (Proverb 3:19).
Finally …
In it (the logos/dabar/word) was life, and the life was the light of men (Yahchanan 1:4).
This verse can be understood in light of verses like…
This is my comfort and consolation in my affliction: that Your word (dabar) has revived me and given me life. (Psalm 119:50 – AMP).
I am sorely afflicted; renew and quicken me [give me life], O Yahweh, according to Your word (dabar)! (Psalm 119:50 – AMP).
Thy word (dabar) is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path. (Ps 119:105 NUN – KJV).
Now notice something, Yahchanan uses the same speech in his letter when speaking about the word.
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the word of life; (For the life was manifested [MADE KNOWN], and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested [MADE KNOWN unto us[/U];) That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his son Yahshua Messiah. And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. (1 John 1:1-4, KJV).
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life—the life was made manifest [MADE KNOWN], and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest [MADE KNOWN] to us—that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his son Yahshua Messiah. And we are writing these things so that our joy may be complete. (1 John 1:1-4, ESV).
Yahchanan is once again talking about the same word that was in the beginning with the Father in the intro of his first letter. Now oddly, no one ever uses these verse to argue a pre-existant Yahshua [“Jesus”], why?
Could it be, because here the translator properly translated the word as an “it” instead of as a “him” even though in the KJV they still capitalize “word?”
Yahchanan 1:1-5 is talking about Yahweh's spoken word! To come to any other conclusion or understanding of the passage will only cause contradictions and confusion. The Tanakh as well as the Apostolic Writings plainly tells us that Yahweh the Father is the only true Mighty One [“Elohim, God”]. It also states that He created the universe by Himself through His spoken word!
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Quote (jammin @ April 30 2012,15:31) Quote (charity @ April 30 2012,08:22) Quote (jammin @ April 29 2012,23:25) i believe what the bible said charity and not opinions from men
The Gospel of John is an opinion. It'S never been Illegal to consume wandering mentality, build armiesThe Word “Word”, translated from the english language, which was birthed around 1066.
Only the western cultures rattle on with the confusion…
Because of Jeruserlem being the Inheritance, An Solomon's foriegn wives they had to start him from the beginning, or the family tree will be trimed back or cut down.
The Jewish are NOT self concentered….THE WORLD NEEDS TO BE ASHAMED!! they are an example of a family that pass's down the Jewels, whole things cant be divided, they went down threw the first born, but hence.. that became THE problem of favoring…an law pushed its way in…on behalf of the un favored but hence legal choice….
If a man wants to leave his youngest son all he owns…is it his right?
what dose the “word” Jesus say about Cain&Abel?What was wrong with Cain that everything he offered was not good enough in the sight of his parents? God? that they should torment him as less favored, till he arrive At an emotional… chemical reaction an destroy”s his little goddie two shoe's brother via stored up anxiety an living the rejection…?
i believe what the bible says charity.the word in john 1.14-18 is theson of GOD. not the father or the HS
case closed
yes you can drive the bible in any direction to agree with your theory…..I might add, as an under score via John, Paul,peter, but never the less your putting trust at te top of the pyrimid..the priests that mocked, spat, an murded Jesus on behalf of the Jew's, an there the latin, Roman catholic church translations, translators.. that of whch they wish to portray the life of Jesus as such. in order to keep the spoil of the jewish inheritance, Land, thrones, in the pockets…hey shall serve them
its a nice victory when the Jewish God can made to agree with the blood shed…an forgiving of something that proved without a shadow of doubt, that they will never have to fear God ever again..do as you want for God is a substance unseen…an he never stopped one believing child from being molested by the un fearful un chastened priests. nor spineless man, neither chalanged or questioned Gods authoritiy's….Hi Frank,
The Word said through the vessel Jesus
“Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you will not have life in you.”
Frank,
John is not the only one of the First Century that spoke Philo, a Jew of Alexander, did also. Philo called the Word, the first born Son of God. Philo clearly teaches the Word is a non-person personification.
Quote Of particular note are his references to The Logos as the Divine Reason, by participation in which humans are rational; the model of the universe; the superintendent or governor of the universe; and the first-born son of God. According to my source these are a summary of the words of a brother Hebrew and contemporary of John; who like John was speaking to the Greeks. From what I have heard he explicitly denied the Word was a person but that he chose to personify it because Scripture does.
Nick is speaking a teaching about the Word that did exist at the time. If you wish to neuter the gender then the Son of God becomes the Child of God.
Here is my source.
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