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Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 29 2012,01:20) Quote (kerwin @ April 28 2012,01:04) Mike, Quote (mikeboll @ 64) Scripture teaches the pre-existence of Jesus in MANY places, Kerwin. Scripture does not teach what you hold to; it does teach that the Spirit of through which God lives; came down and made a home in Jesus. It teaches us that same Spirit both preexists Jesus and reveals the Word of God, as well as the Light therein.
Hi Kerwin,It seems you have the same problem that Nick, Frank, and Gene have in this case: You want John 1:14 to be speaking of a Word who “came to be IN someone who was already flesh”.
But does 1:14 actually say what you guys WANT it to say? If “the Word” is “the Spirit of God”, then 1:14 teaches that “the Spirit of God” BECAME flesh. And if “the Spirit of God” BECAME flesh, we need to know WHO it BECAME flesh AS.
We also need to know why the Spirit of God was still active AS the Spirit of God after it BECAME flesh. Because the Spirit of God could definitely come to be IN someone who was already flesh and still remain the Spirit of God. But the Spirit of God cannot BECOME flesh and still remain the Spirit of God.
So can you tell me WHO the Spirit of God was when it BECAME flesh? And can you explain how the Spirit of God was able to BECOME flesh while simultaneously remaining the Spirit of God?
Hi MB,
Christ IN US, the hope of glory.What is your hope?
Hebrews 2:14
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same……….Look to verse 9 of the chapter to see who the writer is speaking about. (Hint: JESUS, not “the spirit of Christ who later ENTERED Jesus”)
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 28 2012,13:39) Hi MB,
Christ IN US, the hope of glory.
Nick,The question REMAINS:
Did the Word BECOME flesh, or “come to be IN someone who already was flesh”? Which one does the scripture bear out?
Are you seriously unable to answer this question, Nick? Or is it that you REFUSE TO answer it because the answer doesn't align with your own imagined doctrine?
Hi MB,
Hebrews 2 emphasises the kinship of Jesus Christ with MANKIND. It is a treatise focussed on the HUMAN vessel. Lord Jesus was MADE as one with us in ORIGIN so that he could lead the way and be as captain of our salvation and High Priest. He was also made man so he was was able to die as we do.
But he was also given the Holy Spirit as his brothers also are to be able to serve God in power and manifest by works of power that it is all the work of God.
It is the plan of God that a MAN should be given rule over men and angels.
There is no suggestion that this MAN existed before he was conceived.
But he could have done nothing without the enabling of God's Spirit.
Hebrews 2
1Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.2For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
3How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
5For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
6But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is MAN, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of MAN that thou visitest him?
7Thou MADEST him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
8Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
9But we see Jesus, who was MADE a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every MAN.
10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
11For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are ALL OF ONE: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them BRETHREN,
12Saying, I will declare thy name unto my BRETHREN, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
13And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the CHILDREN which God hath given me.
14Forasmuch then as the children are PARTAKERS of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise TOOK PART of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the SEED of Abraham
17Wherefore IN ALL THINGS it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high PRIEST in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 28 2012,14:13) There is no suggestion that this MAN existed before he was conceived.
Hmmmm………….let's see:He is called “the Word” in Rev 19:13. In John 1, we learn that “the Word” became flesh and had the glory of God's only begotten. We learn that all things came into being through this Word. Later, we learn that Jesus is God's only begotten and that all things came into being through him. And that's just the TIP OF THE ICEBERG!
It doesn't really take rocket science, Nick. All it takes from you is one honest answer to the question I've asked about ten times:
Does the scripture say the Word BECAME flesh, or came to be IN someone who already was flesh? Which one?
N
Quote It is the plan of God that a MAN should be given rule over men and angels. There is no suggestion that this MAN existed before he was conceived.
But he could have done nothing without the enabling of God's Spirit.
you have so many questions that you do not answer and so keep ,teaching your faulty conception of truth ,
all men have sin and all die, no one to rescue ,so God took his right arm and send him to save humanity,
his right arm is his only begotten son THE WORD OF GOD,JESUS CHRIST ,THE ANOINTED ,THE FIRST BORN OVER ALL CREATION,THROUGH WHOM ALL CREATION WAS CREATED.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 23 2012,06:36) Quote (942767 @ April 22 2012,12:52) Hi Mike: I believe that the person on the horse described as faithful and true and the person that the scripture states that “his name is called the Word of God” is Jesus.
Fantastic Marty!Now tell me, if you can comprehend that the title “the Word of God” is used to refer to none other than the BEING/PERSON “Jesus Christ” in Rev 19:13, then why do you insist – WITHOUT ONE SHRED OF SCRIPTURAL EVIDENCE – that the same title used in John 1:1, 1:14, Luke 1:1, and 1 John 1:1 can't ALSO be referring to none other than the BEING/PERSON “Jesus Christ”?
For crying out loud, Marty, this Word actually became flesh, was seen with human eyes, touched with human hands, and dwelled for a while on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son. WHO ELSE IN THE UNIVERSE COULD IT BE?
Look Marty, as you already know (because you and I have done this exercise before), there is more than enough evidence to understand that the Word mentioned in John 1, Luke 1, and 1 John 1 is the SAME Word that is mentioned in Rev 19. And there is absolutly NO scripture in whole of the Bible that would CONTRADICT that understanding.
Granted, there are some scriptures that can be understood more than one way, but not ALL FIFTY OF THEM. And more often than not, you guys make a nonsensical mish-mash absurdity out of a completely understandable sentence in your effort to make the scriptures say what you want them to say.
This exercise has served its purpose. It has shown that, while you guys will never stop imagining a “just like the rest of us Jesus” (because that's the Jesus you WANT), you don't really have any solid scripture to refute or rebut the many that clearly teach of the pre-existence of Jesus. So feel free to keep on changing “the glory I had in your presence before the world began” to “the glory THE THOUGHT OF ME IN YOUR HEAD had in your presence before the world began” if it helps you to feel more empowered. As for me, I will believe my Lord when he says he came down from heaven.
Also, remember that the Jesus you guys have created of your own imaginations didn't sacrifice one single thing for us. Instead, your Jesus hit the jackpot of all jackpots. Your Jesus won the “God Lottery”. As if God picked a normal human being out of millions of them, and told that LUCKY one: “Suffer through one day of pain and death – things all men go through anyway – and I will give you eternal life at My own right hand, ruling over the entire heavens and earth with Me.”
Marty, wouldn't you JUMP at that opportunity? Wouldn't we ALL? So where's the “sacrifice”?
Hi Mike:I already told you that the Word in John 1 is Logos which means that which God has spoken, and it emodies a plan. It pertains to Jesus, but it is not Jesus as a sentient person.
In Revelation 19 it is said of Jesus that “his name is called the Word of God” because here God has spoken to humanity through him, and he has obeyed that Word without sin unto death on the cross, and has been exalted to the right hand of the Father in his current position as head of the church, and he will judge the living and the dead by this Word of God that he has obeyed.
Of course, he came down from heaven. He was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin mary, and was born a living soul and raised by parents under the Law of Moses, and his spirit came from heaven in that it was formed within him as he obeyed the Word of God without sin event unto death on the cross. Isn't this what is recorded in your bible?
He did not originate the Word of God, therefore, he is not the Word in John 1.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (kerwin @ April 28 2012,06:40) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 28 2012,01:02) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 27 2012,17:14) Hi Jammin,
The Word is the only begotten of the Father.
To ALL,Please do not confuse my beliefs with Nick's non-sense and unscriptural statement as follows:
“The Word is the only begotten of the Father.”
Nick and I do not share the same belief, even though it might seem that we do when he finds it necessary to respond to every post that I submit as if he were in agreement with me.
Frank,Nick is correct. You are just looking at the the only begotten as being a living being, but that is not necessary the case from a Scriptural point of view. Scripture after all refers to Wisdom as a she. Nick is doing the same type of thing with the only begotten, in keeping with John's action as regarding both the Word and the Light therein.
John personifies the Word and the Light therein, even though neither are persons. He does this for teaching purposes; though it confuses the ignorant. Part of the personification is to state the Word has a gory like that of the only begotten of God.
kerwin,It is not the author of the so-called “Gospel of John” that personified Father Yahweh's word, but it was the Trinitarian translators who chose who chose to personify Father Yahweh's word in an attempt to promote their “Triune God”.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 28 2012,13:51) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 27 2012,12:53) Mike, It seems you are confusing your belief with what it is that I believe, since it is you who believes “the Word who became flesh”, not I.
And what do you believe John 1:14 is saying?
Mike,You should know full well by now that I believe that Father Yahweh's word became flesh THROUGH (BY WAY OF) his son Yahshua. Father Yahweh's word is not a separate being that existed with Him or beside Him in the beginning as His only begotten son Yahshua as you deceptively believe.
Mike,
Quote There is no “paradox” here, Kerwin. Could it be that Jesus was BEFORE David in one respect, yet AFTER David in another? If not, then show me the SCRIPTURE that explains to us that this is impossibility. You hold that Jesus is basically his own ancestor. That is a paradox just like Jesus coming to exist twice is also a paradox. The only way to get around these paradoxes is to conclude that Jesus transformed and then crawled into Mary’s womb; therefore he was not conceived there; even though Scripture states he was.
The knowledge of the coming of Jesus and his inheritance did come before David; as David was promised a descendent who would sit on his throne forever and the Word of God was among the first of his works.
Quote Also, how could Jesus be “the Root of David's faith” if Jesus didn't even exist? David talked directly to God Himself – why wouldn't GOD be “the Root of David's faith”? God promised the coming of Jesus and David believed.
Hi 94,
You say
“Of course, he came down from heaven. He was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin mary, and was born a living soul and raised by parents under the Law of Moses, and his spirit came from heaven in that it was formed within him as he obeyed the Word of God without sin event unto death on the cross.”Any scriptures support the view of spirits FORMING by obedience?
Frank,
The Greek language is not like the English language as Greek nouns and pronouns have a gender. The gender of logos and associated pronouns is male. Some translators chose to keep the gender when translating while others do not. I believe it is more correct to keep it since Scripture is known to personalize abstract concepts such as Wisdom, the Word, and the Light.
Knowing somewhat of the mindset from reports of the handling of the same subject by Philo of Alexander and the Peshita; the words “the Word was with God” were possibly written to reveal the Word is not an actual person; including God. Those that lack knowledge and those that are corrupt misinterpret it. You and others see it for what is.
John 1:6-13 is not even teaching of the Word but it is teaching of the Light that is in the Word. Is Jesus in Jesus?; Of course not. John is not the Light because the Life in the Word is the Light that is coming into the World. The Light comes into the world when the Word of God becomes Jesus. It does not transform into Jesus and so stop being the Word; as some seem to believe. Instead the Word, and the Light therein, which were non-person personification have now been made into person personification in Jesus of Nazareth.
Even using the Trinitarian choice to keep the Greek pronoun gender; it is clear to those with eyes to see and ears to hear that John 1:1-16 is only indirectly speaking of Jesus but is directly speaking of the Word that comes out of the mouth of God; or the Light that is in that Word.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 29 2012,05:38) Hi KW,
The man is the branch of David and the Word is the root.
Nick,That sounds correct.
Quote (kerwin @ April 29 2012,10:57) Frank, The Greek language is not like the English language as Greek nouns and pronouns have a gender. The gender of logos and associated pronouns is male. Some translators chose to keep the gender when translating while others do not. I believe it is more correct to keep it since Scripture is known to personalize abstract concepts such as Wisdom, the Word, and the Light.
Knowing somewhat of the mindset from reports of the handling of the same subject by Philo of Alexander and the Peshita; the words “the Word was with God” were possibly written to reveal the Word is not an actual person; including God. Those that lack knowledge and those that are corrupt misinterpret it. You and others see it for what is.
John 1:6-13 is not even teaching of the Word but it is teaching of the Light that is in the Word. Is Jesus in Jesus?; Of course not. John is not the Light because the Life in the Word is the Light that is coming into the World. The Light comes into the world when the Word of God becomes Jesus. It does not transform into Jesus and so stop being the Word; as some seem to believe. Instead the Word, and the Light therein, which were non-person personification have now been made into person personification in Jesus of Nazareth.
Even using the Trinitarian choice to keep the Greek pronoun gender; it is clear to those with eyes to see and ears to hear that John 1:1-16 is only indirectly speaking of Jesus but is directly speaking of the Word that comes out of the mouth of God; or the Light that is in that Word.
Compare The Following Translation:1. “All things were made by it” (Tyndale, 1534)
2. “The worde … All things were made by the same” (Coverdale, 1535)
3. “All things were made by it and without it nothing was made” (Matthews’ Bible, 1537)
4. “All things were made by it and without it was made nothing that was made” (The Great Bible, 1539)
5. “All things were made by it” (Taverner NT, 1540)
6. “All things were made by it”(Whittingham, 1557)
7. “All things were made by it” (The Geneva Bible, 1560)
8. “All things were made by it” (Bishops’ Bible, 1568)
9. “All things were made by it” (Tomson NT, 1607)
10. “Nor can anything be produced that has been made without it [Reason]” (John LeClerc, 1701)
11. “The word … through the same all things were made” (Mortimer, 1761)
12. “In the beginning was Wisdom … All things were made by it” (Wakefield NT, 1791)
13. “The Word … All things were made by it” (Alexander Campbell, founder of the Church of Christ, 1826)
14. “The Word … All things were formed by it” (Dickinson, A New and Corrected Version of the NT, 1833)
15. “All things were made by it” (Barnard, 1847)
16. “Through it [the logos] everything was done” (Wilson, Emphatic Diaglott, 1864)
17. “All things through it arose into being” (Folsom, 1869)
18. “All things were made through it” (Sharpe, Revision of the Authorized English Version, 1898)
19. “All things were made by the Love thought” (Goddard, 1916)
20. “All things came into being in this God-conception and apart from it came not anything into being that came into being” (Overbury, 1925)
21. “All came into being through it” (Knoch, 1926)
22. “The word … the living expression of the Father’s thought” (Blount, Half Hours with John’sGospel, 1930)
23. “The word was god” (C.C. Torrey, The Four Gospels, 1933)
24. “Through the divine reason all things came into being” (Wade, The Documents of the NT Translated, 1934)
25. “Without it nothing created sprang into existence” (Johannes Greber, 1937)
26. “It was in the beginning with God, by its activity all things came into being” (Martin Dibelius, The Message of Jesus Christ, translated by F.C. Grant, 1939)
27. “Through its agency all things came into being and apart from it has not one thing come to be” (William Temple, Archbishop of Canterbury, Readings from St. John’s Gospel, 1939)
28. “The energizing mind was in existence from the very beginning” (Crofts, The Four Gospels, 1949)
29. “First there was the Thought and the Thought was in God … He, him” (Hoare, Translation from the Greek, 1949)
30. “In the beginning God expressed Himself … That personal expression, that word … He” (J.B. Philips, NT in Modern English, 1958)
31. “All was done through it” (Tomanek, 1958)
32. “The Word was the life principle [in creation]” (William Barclay, NT, 1969)
33. “This same idea was at home with God when life began … He” (Jordan, Cottonpatch Version, 1970)
34. “All things became what they are through the Word” (Dale, NT, 1973)
35. “Within the Word was life” (Edington, 1976)
36. “It was his last werd. Ony it come first” (Gospels in Scouse, 1977)
37. “By it everything had being, and without it nothing had being” (Schonfield, The Original NT, 1985)
38. “All things were made through the Word” (Inclusive Language Lectionary, 1986)
39. “In the beginning was the Plan of Yahweh. All things were done according to it” (Hawkins, Book of Yahweh, 1987)
40. “All things happened through it” (Gaus, Unvarnished NT, 1991)
41. “In the beginning was the divine word and wisdom … everything came to be by means of it” (Robert Miller, The Complete Gospels, Annotated Scholars’ Version, 1992Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 29 2012,07:49) Quote (kerwin @ April 29 2012,10:57) Frank, The Greek language is not like the English language as Greek nouns and pronouns have a gender. The gender of logos and associated pronouns is male. Some translators chose to keep the gender when translating while others do not. I believe it is more correct to keep it since Scripture is known to personalize abstract concepts such as Wisdom, the Word, and the Light.
Knowing somewhat of the mindset from reports of the handling of the same subject by Philo of Alexander and the Peshita; the words “the Word was with God” were possibly written to reveal the Word is not an actual person; including God. Those that lack knowledge and those that are corrupt misinterpret it. You and others see it for what is.
John 1:6-13 is not even teaching of the Word but it is teaching of the Light that is in the Word. Is Jesus in Jesus?; Of course not. John is not the Light because the Life in the Word is the Light that is coming into the World. The Light comes into the world when the Word of God becomes Jesus. It does not transform into Jesus and so stop being the Word; as some seem to believe. Instead the Word, and the Light therein, which were non-person personification have now been made into person personification in Jesus of Nazareth.
Even using the Trinitarian choice to keep the Greek pronoun gender; it is clear to those with eyes to see and ears to hear that John 1:1-16 is only indirectly speaking of Jesus but is directly speaking of the Word that comes out of the mouth of God; or the Light that is in that Word.
Compare The Following Translation:1. “All things were made by it” (Tyndale, 1534)
2. “The worde … All things were made by the same” (Coverdale, 1535)
3. “All things were made by it and without it nothing was made” (Matthews’ Bible, 1537)
4. “All things were made by it and without it was made nothing that was made” (The Great Bible, 1539)
5. “All things were made by it” (Taverner NT, 1540)
6. “All things were made by it”(Whittingham, 1557)
7. “All things were made by it” (The Geneva Bible, 1560)
8. “All things were made by it” (Bishops’ Bible, 1568)
9. “All things were made by it” (Tomson NT, 1607)
10. “Nor can anything be produced that has been made without it [Reason]” (John LeClerc, 1701)
11. “The word … through the same all things were made” (Mortimer, 1761)
12. “In the beginning was Wisdom … All things were made by it” (Wakefield NT, 1791)
13. “The Word … All things were made by it” (Alexander Campbell, founder of the Church of Christ, 1826)
14. “The Word … All things were formed by it” (Dickinson, A New and Corrected Version of the NT, 1833)
15. “All things were made by it” (Barnard, 1847)
16. “Through it [the logos] everything was done” (Wilson, Emphatic Diaglott, 1864)
17. “All things through it arose into being” (Folsom, 1869)
18. “All things were made through it” (Sharpe, Revision of the Authorized English Version, 1898)
19. “All things were made by the Love thought” (Goddard, 1916)
20. “All things came into being in this God-conception and apart from it came not anything into being that came into being” (Overbury, 1925)
21. “All came into being through it” (Knoch, 1926)
22. “The word … the living expression of the Father’s thought” (Blount, Half Hours with John’sGospel, 1930)
23. “The word was god” (C.C. Torrey, The Four Gospels, 1933)
24. “Through the divine reason all things came into being” (Wade, The Documents of the NT Translated, 1934)
25. “Without it nothing created sprang into existence” (Johannes Greber, 1937)
26. “It was in the beginning with God, by its activity all things came into being” (Martin Dibelius, The Message of Jesus Christ, translated by F.C. Grant, 1939)
27. “Through its agency all things came into being and apart from it has not one thing come to be” (William Temple, Archbishop of Canterbury, Readings from St. John’s Gospel, 1939)
28. “The energizing mind was in existence from the very beginning” (Crofts, The Four Gospels, 1949)
29. “First there was the Thought and the Thought was in God … He, him” (Hoare, Translation from the Greek, 1949)
30. “In the beginning God expressed Himself … That personal expression, that word … He” (J.B. Philips, NT in Modern English, 1958)
31. “All was done through it” (Tomanek, 1958)
32. “The Word was the life principle [in creation]” (William Barclay, NT, 1969)
33. “This same idea was at home with God when life began … He” (Jordan, Cottonpatch Version, 1970)
34. “All things became what they are through the Word” (Dale, NT, 1973)
35. “Within the Word was life” (Edington, 1976)
36. “It was his last werd. Ony it come first” (Gospels in Scouse, 1977)
37. “By it everything had being, and without it nothing had being” (Schonfield, The Original NT, 1985)
38. “All things were made through the Word” (Inclusive Language Lectionary, 1986)
39. “In the beginning was the Plan of Yahweh. All things were done according to it” (Hawkins, Book of Yahweh, 1987)
40. “All things happened through it” (Gaus, Unvarnished NT, 1991)
41. “In the beginning was the divine word and wisdom … everything came to be by means of it” (Robert Miller, The Complete Gospels, Annotated Scholars’ Version, 1992
Frank,Translating the Greek genders to neuters is also acceptable as it does not meaningfully change the message and takes into account the lack of gendered nouns and pronouns in the English language. Either way the message is understandable to those who have ears to hear and eyes to see.
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