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Quote (Not3in1 @ May 31 2007,10:23) WJ, thanks for your side of “Theos.” I read everyone's posts, but I confess, when they are too long or too packed full of factoids (greek/latin/spanish)
I get frustrated easily and tend to start glossing over important information….. I guess along with the facts, maybe if you could tell a knock-knock joke or something to keep me awake, that would help? I'm only kidding. You have a lot of really good information here. I'll read it over again tonight when it's more quiet. Thanks, WJ.
not3You are welcome!
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 31 2007,07:14) Hi W,
I do wonder why you choose as a user name here evidence that Jesus alone is your god and not the Father. Do you not follow Jesus in this? That does also suggest that Jesus is not your Lord, yet he was appointed as such for us..
NHHave you not realized you cant have the Father/God without haveing the Son!
He who has the Son has the Father/God!
But how many masters do you serve NH?
Hi W,
God has certainly demanded that His Son be the only mediator with men and the only way to Him and the only means of access to His precious Spirit and all His graces.
You only need to submit to the Son to be in submission to his God.The vine and the Gardener.
You would cut out the appointed middleman?
Hi W,
If you teach that the vine is the Gardener and the Gardener is the vine
then
you deny the truth of scripture,
you deny the Lordship of Jesus,
you worship another unbiblical god
and insult the Gardener who is to be feared.t8
Also you say…
Quote
Likewise the last word God/theos used in John 1:1 doesn't have the definite article (the) so it can be understood as being a qualitative statement. Some translations even say “The Word was divine” in recognition of this. However, I would also like to add that putting the word “a” as the JWs teach is also presumptuous. The Word was divine. Not the Word was a divine or a god.This is also a straw. Because you say it dosnt have a definate article so it has to be a qualitative statement!
However we see many examples in scripture that prove this not to be so.
Many Scriptures use “God” (Gk. theos) without an article to refer to the true God.
See Matthew 5:9; 6:24; Luke 1:35,78; John 1:6,12,13,18; Romans 17:17; and many others.
Many Scriptures use “God” both with and without an article in the same context, yet both uses clearly refer to the true God.
See Matthew 4:3,4; 12:28; Luke 20:37,38; John 3:2; 13:3; Acts 5:29,30; Romans 1:7,8,17-19; 2:16,17; 3:5,22,23; 4:2,3; etc.
How do you explain this t8?
And how do you explain this same John using “Theos” in the same verse with the Father for Yeshua instead of one of the other Gr words I show he could have used?
And how do you explain this same John summing up his Gospel using the word “Theos”, in John 20:28?
Maybe Thomas said…
Jn 20:28
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my “Divine“.Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 31 2007,10:58) Hi W,
God has certainly demanded that His Son be the only mediator with men and the only way to Him and the only means of access to His precious Spirit and all His graces.
You only need to submit to the Son to be in submission to his God.The vine and the Gardener.
You would cut out the appointed middleman?
NHHow can I cut out the middleman if I have Jesus?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 31 2007,11:05) Hi W,
If you teach that the vine is the Gardener and the Gardener is the vine
then
you deny the truth of scripture,
you deny the Lordship of Jesus,
you worship another unbiblical god
and insult the Gardener who is to be feared.
NHI dont teach the Father is the Son!
But you do teach that Jesus is the Most High God/YHWH and scripture teaches that the Most High is the Father.
So even though you do not say that the son is the Father, you say it in a round about way.
But of course in your confusion, you say it isn't so.
To WJ.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 01 2007,00:28) All were translated “God” referring to the Father and Yeshua, except 13 times for “False gods” including satan and the man of sin and man, and eight times Godly, and once Yeshua was quoting the Psalmist which was still under Old covenant law. Agency was still in play.
Be honest, how many times is “theos” applied to Jesus?You say 13 times for false gods and man.
So how many for Jesus?
If you don't know exactly how many, then more than 13 or less?
Quote (t8 @ May 31 2007,12:25) To WJ. Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 01 2007,00:28) All were translated “God” referring to the Father and Yeshua, except 13 times for “False gods” including satan and the man of sin and man, and eight times Godly, and once Yeshua was quoting the Psalmist which was still under Old covenant law. Agency was still in play.
Be honest, how many times is “theos” applied to Jesus?You say 13 times for false gods and man.
So how many for Jesus?
If you don't know exactly how many, then more than 13 or less?
t8How many times does it take t8?
You didnt answer the question!
*Is there any example of the word “Theos” ascribed to a living man or king or lord or Angel of the most high *in New Testament sciptures* other than Yeshua*?.
If not then maybe you should accept what the Apostles and the scriptures say concerning Yeshua being True “Theos”, and that all others are opposites or false.!!!
Quote (t8 @ May 31 2007,12:25) To WJ. Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 01 2007,00:28) All were translated “God” referring to the Father and Yeshua, except 13 times for “False gods” including satan and the man of sin and man, and eight times Godly, and once Yeshua was quoting the Psalmist which was still under Old covenant law. Agency was still in play.
Be honest, how many times is “theos” applied to Jesus?You say 13 times for false gods and man.
So how many for Jesus?
If you don't know exactly how many, then more than 13 or less?
t8If you read the Hebrew scriptures you will see that many times “YHWH” is referring to Yeshua as well as the Father!
But of course you dont believe all the scriptures!
To WJ.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 01 2007,07:41) t8 How many times does it take t8?
You didnt answer the question!
*Is there any example of the word “Theos” ascribed to a living man or king or lord or Angel of the most high *in New Testament sciptures* other than Yeshua*?.
If not then maybe you should accept what the Apostles and the scriptures say concerning Yeshua being True “Theos”, and that all others are opposites or false.!!!
I thought I gave you the examples a while back.Anyway I can post it (again).
How about this, if I post the scriptures (again), then you post the scriptures where Jesus is called “theos”.
What do you say?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 31 2007,11:52) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 31 2007,10:58) Hi W,
God has certainly demanded that His Son be the only mediator with men and the only way to Him and the only means of access to His precious Spirit and all His graces.
You only need to submit to the Son to be in submission to his God.The vine and the Gardener.
You would cut out the appointed middleman?
NHHow can I cut out the middleman if I have Jesus?
Hi W,
We do not have the Son. He knows us. We are baptised into him and he is reborn into us as the Spirit of Christ. But we do not have him. We should be in him.1Pe 3:18 because also Christ once for sin did suffer–righteous for unrighteous–that he might lead us to God, having been put to death indeed, in the flesh, and having been made alive in the spirit,
Quote (t8 @ May 31 2007,12:48) To WJ. Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 01 2007,07:41) t8 How many times does it take t8?
You didnt answer the question!
*Is there any example of the word “Theos” ascribed to a living man or king or lord or Angel of the most high *in New Testament sciptures* other than Yeshua*?.
If not then maybe you should accept what the Apostles and the scriptures say concerning Yeshua being True “Theos”, and that all others are opposites or false.!!!
I thought I gave you the examples a while back.Anyway I can post it (again).
How about this, if I post the scriptures (again), then you post the scriptures where Jesus is called “theos”.
What do you say?
t8No you never gave me any example of the word “Theos” ascribed to a living man or king or lord or Angel of the most high *in New Testament sciptures* other than Yeshua*?.
Look close at my question!
“Of the most High”. all you have is 13 examples of the word ascribed to false Gods or no Gods at all!
Your interpretation of John 10:24 is wrong! Jesus was quoting Psa 82:6 which is under OT law of agency.
There is no more such! The word “Theos” is not found in the mouths of any of the New Testament saints in a “true” sence except toward the Father and Yeshua!
Do you think Yeshua is promoting polytheism?
I dont think so.
Is there a contradiction in the words of Jesus and Paul?
Jesus said…
Mark 12:29
And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; *The Lord (kurios) our God is *one Lord (kurios)*:748 times “kurios” is found in the NT scriptures and most all ascribed to Yeshua!
Jn 13:
13 Ye call me Master and Lord (kurios): and ye say well; for so I am.
14 If I then, your Lord (kurios) and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.Yet Paul says…
1 Cor 8:
4 Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that *there is no such thing as an idol in the world*, and that *there is no God but one*.
5 For even if there are *so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth*, as indeed there are many gods and many lords,
6 yet *for us there is but one God*, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord (kurios), Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.So now t8, again can you give any example of the word “Theos” ascribed to a *living* man or king or lord or Angel of the most high *in New Testament sciptures* other than Yeshua?.
If not, you forcing your interpretation of the word “theos” for Yeshua to mean a god or angel or some other being is a straw.
You have no living example in NT scriptures that the word was applied to anything or any one that was “True” or of God and not false.
The Father and Yeshua only is found in scriptures as “True Theos”!
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 31 2007,14:59) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 31 2007,11:52) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 31 2007,10:58) Hi W,
God has certainly demanded that His Son be the only mediator with men and the only way to Him and the only means of access to His precious Spirit and all His graces.
You only need to submit to the Son to be in submission to his God.The vine and the Gardener.
You would cut out the appointed middleman?
NHHow can I cut out the middleman if I have Jesus?
Hi W,
We do not have the Son. He knows us. We are baptised into him and he is reborn into us as the Spirit of Christ. But we do not have him. We should be in him.
NH1 Jn 5:12
He that *hath the Son* hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.You cant have the Father without *having* the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit, his Spirit, dwelling in you!
One Spirit, Three Persons, One God!
Thanks for pointing out the little Trinity smiley face Not3!
Quote (olive @ May 31 2007,15:49) 1Pe 3:18 because also Christ once for sin did suffer–righteous for unrighteous–that he might lead us to God, having been put to death indeed, in the flesh, and having been made alive in the spirit,
OliveDo you think Jesus “Eternal Spirit” died?
Hi W,
So you have four spirits?
Reading Rom8 must be a nightmare for you
sorting them all out.No God is one and lives in us as the one Spirit.
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