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Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 27 2012,10:14) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 26 2012,13:00) Frank, We are of the opinion that if the PERSON Jesus is called by the name “the Word of God” in Rev 19:13, then there is no reason the PERSON Jesus isn't called by that same name in John, 1 John, and Luke.
There is much context to confirm that it is the PERSON Jesus who is called by that name in these books, while there is nothing to discredit this understanding.
Frank, since you know it is Jesus who is referred to by this title in Rev 19:13, why do you have such a hard time believing it is also Jesus who is referred to by this title in these other scriptures?
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 25 2012,20:10) It is only in Revelation that it is made known that Yahshua's name/title is called “The Word of Yahweh”.
I agree that Jesus referred to by the title “the Word of God” in Revelation 19:13.Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 25 2012,20:10) He is referred to as such because it is his and our Father Yahweh's word that proceeds from his mouth and it is he who is the spokesman of his and our Father Yahweh's word in this last time period as Hebrews 1:1-2 makes perfectly clear.
Exactly! He is referred to as “the Word of God” because he spoke the words of God to the people in this last time period.Frank, WHEN did Jesus speak the words of God to the people? Was it only AFTER he ascended to where he was before? Or did he do most of his speaking of the word of God while he was on earth as a human prophet of God?
If you answer truthfully and scripturally, you'll agree that Jesus did the vast majority of his speaking as a human being on earth. And if that is WHEN he was doing most of his work as God's spokesman, then doesn't it make sense that the title “the Word of God” applied to him at this time?
So when John tells us that the Word of God became flesh and dwelled among us with the glory of God's only begotten, why wouldn't John be talking about that same spokesman of God who is called by the title “the Word of God” in Rev 19:13?
One other thing: You are the one who mentioned Heb 1:1-2, right? Did you overlook the fact that the Son through whom God spoke to us in these last days is the very same Son through whom God made the universe (ages)?
Mike,Yahshua was not a spokesman of Father Yahweh's word in the beginning, since he did not exist and was not “begotten” back then as you erroneously believe. Yahshua also did not empty himself of being “a god” that existed with his and our Father Yahweh in the beginning as you erroneously believe.
Yahweh, Who at many times and IN VARIOUS MANNERS spoke IN TIME PAST unto the fathers BY THE PROPHETS, Has in THIS LAST TIME PERIOD spoken unto us by His son, whom he has appointed heir of all things and BECAUSE OF whom also He made the worlds; … (Hebrews 1:1-2).
ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
Exodus 32
By Voy Wilks
3/9/98The Hebrew word elohim, even though a plural, is in most places treated as a singular when referring to the one and only Yahweh, indicated by singular pronouns which accompany Elohim; I, me, mine, he, him, his, etc. Sometimes elohim appears in Scriptures even when referring to one pagan god (idol). This is made clear in Exodus chapter 32.
The Israelites said to Aaron, “Up, make us gods which shall go before us, …” Ex. 32:1, KJV). So Aaron fashioned a golden calf and the Israelites said, “”These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt!” (Ex. 32:4,8, KJV).
Gods (Ex. 32:1,4,8) comes from the word elohim, of course, If read only casually, these verses would seem to indicate more than one god, or idol, had been made. But notice the remaining words in this bit of history:
0 Aaron fashioned it (the elohim) with a tool (Ex. 32:4).
0 Aaron built an altar for it {not them} (Ex. 32:5).
0 For they have made a molten calf {only one calf} (Ex. 32:8).
0 And have worshiped it (singular, Ex. 32:8).
0 Moses entered the camp and saw the calf (only one calf, Ex. 32:19).
0 Moses destroyed the calf (singular, not calves, plural, Ex. 32:20).
0 There came out this calf (singular, Ex. 32:24).
0 Yahweh plagued the people because they made the calf (singular, Ex. 32:35).
0 Yea, when they had made them a molten calf, and said, “This is thy god [elohim] that brought thee up out
of Egypt …” (Neh. 9:18.0 They made a calf [only one calf] in Horeb, and worshiped the molten image” (only one image, Ps. 106:19).
0 They made a calf (only one calf) in those days (Acts 7:41).
Several times the word elohim appears in these verses, More than a dozen times, words are employed which indicate clearly that elohim can be used as singular as well as a plural. This also come through clearly in another quotation from Moses, as follows:
“And I looked, and, behold, ye … had made you a molten calf: … And I took your sin, the molten calf which ye made, and burnt it with fire, and stamped it, and ground it very small, until it was small as dust …” (Duet. 9:12,16,21).
Only one god (elohim), and only one calf; the golden calf.
Note: The word “these” in the phrase, “these be thy gods” (Ex. 32:4,8), can also be translated “this,” as indicated in Neh. 9:18, and in Strong's Concordance. Obviously, Ex. 32:4 should have been translated, “This is the god who brought you up out of the land of Egypt.” On another occasion, a single calf (one calf) was referred to as elohim:
“I have spurned your calf O Samaria. … A workman made it; it *is not god [elohim]. The calf of Samaria shall be broken to pieces” (Hosea 8:5,6).
* Webmaster's Note: The word “god [elohim]” in the above verse is not in reference to Yahweh as “Elohim”, but is in reference to an idol god [elohim] with no power, strength or might and can also be translated as follows:
“… A workman made it; it has no power [strength, might] whatsoever.”
End Webmaster's Note
Moses An Elohim To Aaron And Pharaoh
But Moses said to Yahweh, Oh my Yahweh, I am not eloquent, … Then … Yahweh … said, “Is there not Aaron your brother, the Levite? … He shall speak for you to the people; and he shall be a mouth for you, and you [Moses] shall be to him as *god [elohim]” (Ex. 4:10-16).
And Yahweh said to Moses, “See, I make you as *god [elohim] to Pharaoh; …” (Ex. 7:1).
* Webmaster's Note: The above two verses can also be translated in the following manner:
“… and you [Moses] shall be to him as *one with power [authority]” (Ex. 4:10-16).
… “See, I make you as *one with power [authority] to Pharaoh; … (Ex. 7:1).
Moses as a spokesman for Yahweh communicated to Aaron what Yahweh had communicated to him. Aaron in turn acted as a spokesman for Moses in communicating
to Pharaoh what Yahweh had said to Moses, since Aaron was more eloquent in speaking than Moses.End Webmaster's Note
From these Scriptures we see that Moses became an elohim to Pharaoh and to his brother Aaron. Question: What was the numerical value of Moses? Did he consist of one, two or three persons? All must agree; there was only one Moses. Nevertheless, the ONE man, Moses, was elohim (plural, indicating authority and majesty). Again, there was only one Moses, not two or three.
Chemosh An Elohim
“Will you not possess what Chemosh your elohim gives you to possess?” (Judges 11:24).
Chemosh (singular) was an elohim.
Dagon An Elohim
The second time Dagon fell over, his head and hands were broken off, putting fear into the Philistines (1 Sam. 5:1-6). Notice in the next verse the use of the word elohim (plural), even though there was only one statue. The men of Ashdod said,
“The ark of Elohim must not remain with us; for his hand is heavy upon us, and upon Dagon our elohim” (1 Sam. 5:7, RSV).
Ashtoreth, Chemosh & Milcom
“… because he [Israel] has forsaken me and worshiped Ashtoreth the goddess [elohim] of the Sidonians, Chemosh the god (elohim), of Moab, and Milcom the god [elohim] of the Ammorites, and have not walked in My ways …” (1 Kings 11:33).
IN THE MAJORITY OF CASES, ELOHIM EQUALS ONLY ONE
The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
Eerdman's Publishing Company, Volume Two, 1984, Page 1254
“One of the oldest and most widely distributed terms for deity known to the human race is el, with its derivations 'Elim, 'Elohim, and Eloah. Like theos, Deus and God, it is a generic term, including every member of the class deity. It may even denote a position of honor and authority among men. … It is, therefore, a general term expressing majesty and authority, … By far the most frequent form used by O. T. writers is the plural, 'Elohim, but they use it regularly with singular verbs and adjectives to denote a singular idea. Several explanations have been offered of this usage of a plural term to denote a singular idea – it expresses the fullness and manifoldness of the divine nature, or that it is a plural of majesty used in the manner of royal persons, …” (Some of the emphasis was added by Voy).
The New Bible Dictionary
Eerdman's Publishing Company, 1979, Page 478
“Elohim: Though a plural form, Elohim can be treated as a singular, in which case it means the one supreme deity, …”
Theological Word Book of the Old Testament
By Harris, Archer & Waltke, Volume One, 1980, page 44
“'Elohim. God gods, judges, angels. … This word, which is generally viewed as the plural of eloah,' is found more frequently in Scripture than either 'el' or 'eloah' for the true God. The plural ending is usually described as a plural of majesty and not intended as a true plural of God. This is seen in the fact that the noun 'elohim' is consistently used with singular verb forms and with adjectives and pronouns in the singular.”
Footnote in the Emphasized Bible – Genesis 1:1
By J. B. Rotherham, 1897
“Hebrew: 'elohim. “Probably a plural of quality = 'God-head, ' as our 'Lordship' = Lord (Davies, H.L.. p 9). It should be carefully observed, that although 'elohim is plural in form, yet when, as here, it is construed with a verb in the singular, it is naturally singular in sense, especially since the 'plural of quality' or 'excellence' abounds in Hebrew in cases where the reference is undeniably to something that which must be understood in the singular number.”
The Zondervan Pictorial Bible Dictionary
Zondervan Publishing House, 1982, Page 248
“Elohim, the most frequent Hebrew word for God (over 2,500 times in the O. T.). Elohim is plural in form, but is singular in construction (used with singular verbs and adjectives). When applied to the one true God, the plural is due to the Hebrew idiom of a plural of magnitude or majesty.”
In the majority of cases, the word elohim is used in Scriptures as a singular term. There is only ONE (one) Yahweh, not two, three, or a dozen. There is no Trinity. There is no Twinity. There is no duality. Instead, there is only ONE and only one true Deity. That one true Deity is Yahweh, just as Yahshua reported:
And one of the scribes … asked him, “What commandment is first of all?” Yahshua answered, “The first is, “Here O Israel: Yahweh our Elohim, Yahweh is ONE; …” (Mark 12:28-30; quoted from Deut. 6:4).
From these Scriptures we see that it is not optional. We are commanded to believe that Yahweh is ONE (O-N-E), not two or three.
“And this is eternal life, that we know thee the only true El, and Yahshua Messiah whom thou has sent” (John 17:3).
Scriptures reveal that elohim can be correctly used in referring to one, or to more than one object or person. Since many Scriptures proclaim there is only one Yahweh, then we can be sure the phrase, Yahweh the Elohim of Israel” refers to only one person, one being, one El, one Deity. There is no other (Neh. 9:6; Isa. 43:10-13; 44:6; 45:18,22; John 17:3).
“To you [Israel] it was shown, that you might know that Yahweh is Elohim; there is no other besides him [not them or us]. Out of heaven he let you here his voice … know therefore this day, and lay it to your heart, that Yahweh is Elohim in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other” (Deut. 4:35-39, RSV).
The Books of Deuteronomy and Psalms confirm that the title Elohim is sometimes used as a singular noun:
“For Yahweh your God (El) is God (Elohim) of gods (elohim) and Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the terrible God (El), …” (Deut. 10:17, RSV).
“Oh give thanks to the God (Elohim) of gods (elohim), for his steadfast love endures forever” (Ps. 136:2, RSV).
The one Yahweh is the Elohim (singular) of elohim (plural); the GOD of gods. Te ONE Yahweh, this ONE Elohim, is referred to 36 times throughout Psalm 136 by singular pronouns; HE, HIS, and HIM, indicating one person.
We see then, elohim, even thou technically a plural, often refers to the ONE Yahweh, the ONE true El.
Conclusion
The evidence is conclusive: The word elohim is sometimes singular. This is certainly true when referring to Yahweh (Deut 6:4,5; Mark 12:28-30). There is only ONE (one) Yahweh, not two, three, or a dozen.
For further study, see “Elohim: Singular Or Plural?” Other free literature is available from:
Assembly of Yahweh (7th Day)
Box 509, Cisco, TX 76437Also see:
LET US MAKE MAN IN OUR IMAGE
http://frank4yahweh.xanga.com/758082821/let-us-make-man-in-our-imageRelated Articles
[PDF] Elohim – Plural Or Singular? Hebrew Word Study
http://www.amarthenazarene.com/uploads….lar.pdf[PDF] Plural Hebrew Words Used As Singular Words
http://www.amarthenazarene.com/uploads….one.pdf[PDF] The Let Us Make Man Argument
http://www.amarthenazarene.com/uploads….026.pdfFrank,
You didn't address this part of my post:
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 25 2012,20:10) He is referred to as such because it is his and our Father Yahweh's word that proceeds from his mouth and it is he who is the spokesman of his and our Father Yahweh's word in this last time period as Hebrews 1:1-2 makes perfectly clear.
Exactly! He is referred to as “the Word of God” because he spoke the words of God to the people in this last time period.Frank, WHEN did Jesus speak the words of God to the people? Was it only AFTER he ascended to where he was before? Or did he do most of his speaking of the word of God while he was on earth as a human prophet of God?
If you answer truthfully and scripturally, you'll agree that Jesus did the vast majority of his speaking as a human being on earth. And if that is WHEN he was doing most of his work as God's spokesman, then doesn't it make sense that the title “the Word of God” applied to him at this time?
So when John tells us that the Word of God became flesh and dwelled among us with the glory of God's only begotten, why wouldn't John be talking about that same spokesman of God who is called by the title “the Word of God” in Rev 19:13?
Hi MB,
Because in the beginning the Word was with God and was God.
Jesus of Nazareth was not God or with God in the beginning.I was actually hoping for a SCRIPTURAL reason, Nick…………not your usual, “We don't WANT that to be the case, so it isn't.”
Why wasn't it Jesus who had glory alongside God before the world began? “We don't WANT that to be the case, so it isn't.”
Why wasn't it Jesus who came down from heaven since it was Jesus who said he did? “We don't WANT that to be the case, so it isn't.”
Why wasn't it Jesus who was existing in the form of God before he was made into a human being? “We don't WANT that to be the case, so it isn't.”
Doesn't Jesus being both the Root AND the Branch of David say that he was both before AND after David? “We don't WANT that to be the case, so it isn't.”
Doesn't Col 1:15-16 speak about everything in heaven and on earth, whether visible or invisible, being created through Jesus? “We don't WANT that to be the case, so it isn't.”
How about 1 Cor 8:6? Doesn't it say that all things came through Jesus? “We don't WANT that to be the case, so it isn't.”
When Jesus says he will ascend to where he WAS BEFORE, and then ascends to heaven, doesn't it mean that heaven is where he WAS BEFORE? “We don't WANT that to be the case, so it isn't.”
Just once, I would like to see a SCRIPTURAL reason why Jesus didn't pre-exist.
Mike,
Scripture teaches you Jesus was conceived and therefore did not preexist. You do not believe it so why would you believe anyone else?
Jesus had glory with God before the world began; he did not have it with himself as he was not there and had not yet sacrificed himself, been resurrected, and ascended to mediate the new covenant from his throne.
Hi MB,
John 14:17
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.Hi MB,
John 17:14
I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 27 2012,12:22) Frank, You didn't address this part of my post:
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 25 2012,20:10) He is referred to as such because it is his and our Father Yahweh's word that proceeds from his mouth and it is he who is the spokesman of his and our Father Yahweh's word in this last time period as Hebrews 1:1-2 makes perfectly clear.
Exactly! He is referred to as “the Word of God” because he spoke the words of God to the people in this last time period.Frank, WHEN did Jesus speak the words of God to the people? Was it only AFTER he ascended to where he was before? Or did he do most of his speaking of the word of God while he was on earth as a human prophet of God?
If you answer truthfully and scripturally, you'll agree that Jesus did the vast majority of his speaking as a human being on earth. And if that is WHEN he was doing most of his work as God's spokesman, then doesn't it make sense that the title “the Word of God” applied to him at this time?
So when John tells us that the Word of God became flesh and dwelled among us with the glory of God's only begotten, why wouldn't John be talking about that same spokesman of God who is called by the title “the Word of God” in Rev 19:13?
Mike,I never said that the author of the so-called “Gospel of John” did not know Yahshua as the spokesman of his and our Father Yahweh's word in this last time period. The author is not speaking of Yahshua pre-existing his birth as a separate being as Father Yahweh's word in the beginning. He is simply speaking of Father Yahweh's word that existed with Him in the beginning that had power, strength and might.
You can thump on and direct your Trinitarian concept of a “pre-existent Son” and so called “Holy Bible” translation of this passage to me till you are blue in the face for all I care, but I will never stoop to those weak and beggarly ways of pagan/devil/god/goddess worship.
You must just love to be owned!
Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
…
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 27 2012,08:06) Hi MB,
John 14:17
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Nick and Mike,“for he dwelleth with you” is present tense
“shall be in you” is future tense.
Hi Frank,
The Spirit of Christ that was in the prophets [1peter1.11] and in Christ Jesus proceeded forth and came from God [jn 8.42].This is the Word that was with God and was God in the beginning.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 27 2012,13:42) Hi Frank,
The Spirit of Christ that was in the prophets [1peter1.11] and in Christ Jesus proceeded forth and came from God [jn 8.42].This is the Word that was with God and was God in the beginning.
Nick,I believe I have always expressed that Father Yahweh's word was with Him in the beginning and that the sword (weapon) of the spirit is His word and that it had power, strength and might. His word is sharper than a two-edged sword. In other words, His word is more powerful than a double-barreled shot gun.
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 26 2012,20:32) Mike, I never said that the author of the so-called “Gospel of John” did not know Yahshua as the spokesman of his and our Father Yahweh's word in this last time period. The author is not speaking of Yahshua pre-existing his birth as a separate being as Father Yahweh's word in the beginning. He is simply speaking of Father Yahweh's word that existed with Him in the beginning that had power, strength and might.
So in other words, you have absolutely NO scriptural reason whatsoever to claim that the Word who became flesh and had the glory of God's only begotten Son was NOT the Jesus we know to have been flesh and God's only begotten Son?Instead, it makes more sense to you that God was WITH Himself in the beginning, and His spoken word somehow BECAME FLESH?
So really, it's just a case of “We don't WANT that to be the case, so it isn't”, like I said, right?
Frank, when God's spoken word became flesh, WHO WAS IT? You say it was not Jesus………….so WHO WAS IT when it became flesh?
Quote (kerwin @ April 26 2012,20:06) Mike, Scripture teaches you Jesus was conceived and therefore did not preexist. You do not believe it so why would you believe anyone else?
Kerwin, you nonsensically claim that it would be impossible for God to cause Michael the archangel to become conceived in a human woman's womb, and be born as a human from that woman. I say that God not only CAN do that (because ALL IS POSSIBLE for God), but that God already HAS done something similar in the case of Jesus.
YES Kerwin! I get it! Jesus was concieved AS A HUMAN BEING in Mary. But there is NOTHING in that statement that says he couldn't have existed in the form of God BEFORE he was conceived AS A HUMAN BEING in the womb of Mary. In fact, there are scriptures that say he DID!
Quote (kerwin @ April 26 2012,20:06) Jesus had glory with God before the world began; he did not have it with himself as he was not there………..
Then the words “I HAD” have no meaning, Kerwin. If Jesus wasn't there, then there is no way he could have said he HAD that glory alongside God. In order to even BE “alongside God”, he would have had to existed.Quote (kerwin @ April 27 2012,13:37) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 27 2012,08:06) Hi MB,
John 14:17
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Nick and Mike,“for he dwelleth with you” is present tense
“shall be in you” is future tense.
Hi KW,
Indeed this was before the death of Jesus and the sending of the Spirit of Christ at Pentecost.frank,
read the context boy LOL
14και ο λογος σαρξ εγενετο και εσκηνωσεν εν ημιν και εθεασαμεθα την δοξαν αυτου δοξαν ως μονογενους παρα πατρος πληρης χαριτος και αληθειας
15ιωαννης μαρτυρει περι αυτου και κεκραγεν λεγων ουτος ην ον ειπον ο οπισω μου ερχομενος εμπροσθεν μου γεγονεν οτι πρωτος μου ην
16και εκ του πληρωματος αυτου ημεις παντες ελαβομεν και χαριν αντι χαριτος
17οτι ο νομος δια μωσεως εδοθη η χαρις και η αληθεια δια ιησου χριστου εγενετο
18θεον ουδεις εωρακεν πωποτε ο μονογενης υιος ο ων εις τον κολπον του πατρος εκεινος εξηγησατο
what did john said?
did he say that the word is the
1. Holy spirit
2. son of GODpls choose your answer
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