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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 30 2007,11:51) Nice try! But none of the versions you mention says “Jesus is not God”.
Well, thanks for recognizing that I tried.
WJ, even if Jesus himself told you that he wasn't God, but that he was God's Son – you wouldn't believe him. And why should you? The great religious men of Jesus' day didn't either.
Quote (Not3in1 @ May 30 2007,12:33) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 30 2007,11:51) Nice try! But none of the versions you mention says “Jesus is not God”.
Well, thanks for recognizing that I tried.WJ, even if Jesus himself told you that he wasn't God, but that he was God's Son – you wouldn't believe him. And why should you? The great religious men of Jesus' day didn't either.
Not3Likewise God through the scriptures has shown you Jesus is God but you dont believe him!
Jesus said…
Jn 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are *they which testify of me*.The Bible is a biography of God, yet Jesus takes claim to it!!!
Quote (Not3in1 @ May 30 2007,12:33) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 30 2007,11:51) Nice try! But none of the versions you mention says “Jesus is not God”.
Well, thanks for recognizing that I tried.WJ, even if Jesus himself told you that he wasn't God, but that he was God's Son – you wouldn't believe him. And why should you? The great religious men of Jesus' day didn't either.
Not3Actually the religous leaders believed Jesus was saying he was God or equal to him, and they didnt believe him either!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 30 2007,12:29) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 30 2007,12:13) Quote (942767 @ May 30 2007,11:54) Hi WJ: As I said to you when I have a question about scripture I go to God in prayer and ask Him for understanding. He has spoken to me in times past in and audible voice, and I find that he speaks pretty good English. Also, he has spoken to me through prophets when he needed to correct me.
And as part of my morning prayer routine, I ask God every day to correct me if I am teaching any thing that is not his word or doing any thing that is not his will, and having had the experience that I have mentioned above. I know that He will correct me if I am wrong.
And I respect the work that the 600 sholars have done in giving us multiple English translations of the bible. But they make mistakes, and God doesn't make mistakes. He knows what he intended by the scripture that I question. And if scholars say that Jesus pre-existed as a sentient person before he was born of the Virgin Mary, and if they say that there is such a thing as the “trinity”, they have made a mistake.
There may have been visions of the Lord Jesus in the Old Testament but that is what they were they were visions of things to come. There are also many prophetic scriptures about the coming of Jesus, but they are prophetic because He was not at that time a reality.
And so, the scripture tells us that he was conceived of the Holy Ghost, and that he was born an infant. He came from heaven here in that he was conceived of the Holy Ghost, and so he was with the Father here in what way? He was in bodily form and entered the womb? No, the scripture states that he was conceived of the Holy Ghost.
And so, please show me how he was pre-existent.
94You say…
Quote And so, please show me how he was pre-existent. There is nothing more I can say. I have shown you what is written. You have made up your mind that God has given you “New, Exclusive” revelation in contrast to what is written.
Yow live in dangerous territory 94. If something is revealed to you outside or against scripture then it is not from God.
The mistake is not made by the translators but by a lying spirit that speaks to those who appose what is written.
2 Tim 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God*, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:2 Peter 2:
19 We have also a *more sure word of prophecy*; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20 Knowing this first, that *no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation*.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time *by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost*.When you say God has spoken to you in contrast to what is written, I say God does no such thing!
There is more evidence 94 to show his pre-existence than not.
Blessings
94I reiterate.
There is “No evidence” thats says Jesus did not exist before Abraham and the creation.
Hi WJ:I don't believe that he pre-existed his birth from the virgin Mary and obviously you do believe that he did, but what matters that he came into this world and gave his life that whosoever wants to be reconciled to God may do so, and also, I know that he exists now highly exalted at the right hand of God our Father and is the head of the Church, and he is my Lord and I love him and I will serve him to the best of my ability until I die or he comes for the church.
Also, I realize that I am not a scholar, but I am content to be what ever God wants to make me. Look what he did for Solomon for example.
I am not preaching any thing that is contrary to scriptures. I just understand that in the beginning God had a plan, and that plan was to make man in his own image. He made all things that he made visible and invisible with him in mind.
God Bless
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 30 2007,10:08) Hi not3,
Looking at what Jesus said in Jn 8
” Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it , and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.”He says he IS before Abraham.
He is the root of David too.
Well I would think so. The Word was before all creation including Adam the first human. The Word is the root of everything the Father is the Gardener who planted the seed (Word).Since some like to play around w/ scriptures. Let’s play. This is called the Trinitarian Trinity. The rules are quite simple. When scripture reads Christ, Jesus, Son they will replace it w/ God. Their rules not mine. Since the have no need for Christ and go straight to God status, this will be quite easy for them, others however might have a bit of difficulty.
I will start:
For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten God…………
Now, if you think this to be ‘unfair’ well you could always replace God w/ Christ…………………..
For Christ so loved the world he sent his only begotten Son…………
Humm………………
What do you think, anyone really want to play this game, your salvation depends on it.
blessings
Quote (kenrch @ May 30 2007,13:31) The Word is the root of everything the Father is the Gardener who planted the seed (Word).
Nicely put, Ken.Quote (olive @ May 30 2007,14:55) Since some like to play around w/ scriptures. Let’s play. This is called the Trinitarian Trinity. The rules are quite simple. When scripture reads Christ, Jesus, Son they will replace it w/ God. Their rules not mine. Since the have no need for Christ and go straight to God status, this will be quite easy for them, others however might have a bit of difficulty. I will start:
For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten God…………
Now, if you think this to be ‘unfair’ well you could always replace God w/ Christ…………………..
For Christ so loved the world he sent his only begotten Son…………
Humm………………
What do you think, anyone really want to play this game, your salvation depends on it.
blessings
OliveSure!
And every time we read the word God we will replace it with Father!
Jn 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with “Father”, and the Word was “Father”.14 And the “Father” was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Jn 20:28
And Thomas answered and *said unto him*, My Lord and my “Father”.Acts 20:28
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of “Father”, which *he hath purchased with his own blood*.1 Tim 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: “Father” was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.Heb 1:8
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O “Father”, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.Isa 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty “Father”, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.Jn 20:28
And Thomas answered and *said unto him*, My Lord and my “Father”.
***********************
That doesn't quite work, does it?Jesus is not the Father – even by Trinitarian standards.
Quote (Not3in1 @ May 30 2007,18:23) Jn 20:28
And Thomas answered and *said unto him*, My Lord and my “Father”.
***********************
That doesn't quite work, does it?Jesus is not the Father – even by Trinitarian standards.
not3 I am praying for you!
To those who read WJ's last post.
The word God/Theos/Elohim/ is used of God the Father, the son, angels, men, Satan, idols. This has been taught here for years, so WJs example about it always being the Father is irrelevant in the context that he gives it.
Yes you can replace God with Father when it is referring to the identity of the Most High. But Satan is called the God of this age. So he is also theos, but not the Most High Theos, but a type of theos nevertheless. He is also not the false theos of this age.
God/theos can also be used in a qualitative way too, just like the word devil can.
Jesus said “one of you is a devil”. Was he saying that Judas was Satan himself? No he was saying that Judas had the qualities of a devil, that he was diabolical. There is a difference between saying “THE devil” and “devil”. If we use the word “the”, then we refer to the person. If you say “a” you are referring to a class or a quality. In Greek there is no “a” for “one of you is a devil”. It says “one of you is devil”. But “a” is added in by the translators to complete the sentence in English.
Likewise the last word God/theos used in John 1:1 doesn't have the definite article (the) so it can be understood as being a qualitative statement. Some translations even say “The Word was divine” in recognition of this. However, I would also like to add that putting the word “a” as the JWs teach is also presumptuous. The Word was divine. Not the Word was a divine or a god.
So WJ saying that the Word was the Father is an irrelevant example in defense of Olives post that rightly stated that if the Trinity doctrine were correct, you should be able to replace the word Jesus with God, or God with Jesus.
WJs defense doesn't take into consideration that the Word can be in quality or nature, theos, just as Judas was in quality “devil” and not in identity the Devil.
If WJ denies that the Word was in quality theos, then he should also look at this supporting scripture:
Philippians 2:5-11
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross!Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2007,23:00) Hi not3, Scripture says these things about the root of David. What does this mean to you?
Hi Nick … this was explained to before … here is a reminder:Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 05 2005,01:07) Scripture is precise and pure.
If “root” means “offspring” then both words would not be used.
If “root” means “offspring” then there is unnecessary repetition.
It says “root and offspring of David” because they are different.
Not at all Nick!
They are not different.
It is a Parallelism! They are many examples of parallelisms
in scripture.
It is a Hebraic way of emphasis, and it is definitely not an unnecessary repetition.E.g. (Psa 8:4) What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
man & 'son of man' are synonymous expressions. The psalmist uses a parallelism to emphasize the point. See also Psa 144.3
Also (Job 25:6) How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?
The above are not unnecessary repetition, the terms mean the same thing.
Likewise, root and offspring are synonymous terms emphasizing the fact that the Messiah is indeed the Promised descendant/seed of David.
As already pointed out to you, the Messiah is a root of Jesse; the promised root/descendant of Jesse …
(Isa 11:10) And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, …
Also, (Isa 11:1) And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:Picture a family tree … Isaiah is prophesying of a particular 'branch' coming out of Jesse, who will be the Messiah!
Root/Rod/Branch are all being used synonymously to denote a particular descendant of Jesse, who in turn would be a particular descendant of David, hence, root of David!
BTW, the Greek word for 'root' in Rev 5.5, 22.16, Rom 5.12;
is the same Greek word used for 'stem' & 'root(s)' in the LXX (Septuagint) version of Isa 11.1,10!i.e.
(Isa 11:1) And there shall come forth a rod out of the rhiza of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his rhiza:(Isa 11:10) And in that day there shall be a rhiza of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
Also let me add the following definitions found from Bible software … conc. 'rhiza'
[UBS Grk Dict.] root; descendant; source, cause (of evil)
[Thayer's Lexicon]
rhiza {hrid'-zah}
Meaning: 1) a root 2) that which like a root springs from a root, a sprout, shoot 3) metaph. offspring, progeny
Origin: apparently a primary word; TDNT – 6:985,985; n f
Usage: AV – root 17; 17G4491 r`i,za rhiza {hrid'-zah}
[LS Grk Lex.]
35625 r`i,za
III. metaph. the root or stock from which a family springs, Lat. stirps, Pind., Aesch., etc.; and so a race, family, Aesch., Eur., etc.[Friberg Grk Lex]
04599 r`i,za … metaph. origin, source (RO 11.16-18); (2) fig. and Hebraistically, of a descendant as a shoot or sprout; offspring, scion (RO 15.12).Also the same Greek word is used for 'nativity' in the LXX version of Ezek 16:3 … And say, Thus saith Adonai YAHWEH unto Jerusalem; Thy birth and thy nativity is of the land of Canaan;
Therefore Rev 22:16 = Jesus is the descendant and offspring of David! No unnecessary repetition. Simply Emphasis!
Hope the above clarifies …
Adam, my understanding is a little different from yours, I think.
God is the root of everything. Jesus came “from” God as his Son (therefore, before Jesus was born, he was part of the “root” by means of God's seed within him). Jesus was then born into this world through Mary and became the “offspring” of David.
This is how Jesus can be the root of David and the offspring of David. Maybe this is too simple, I don't know?
t8,
Thanks for clarifying for us regarding WJ's post. Sometimes I think that everyone has their own definition of theos and can look to any book to confirm it. It seems it is used as one wills, sometimes? But thanks for making sense of it all for me, at least.By the way, in the “chat” thread I really enjoyed all your photography! I am a bit of a photographer myself. The artist in me really enjoyed your picture-perspectives.
Dan and I will have to put NZ on our tour-ticket once the kids leave for college. I'll be sure to remember my ear-muffs for the wind……boy can it howl there (the video of the wind was cool).*To all those who read t8s last post!*
t8s statement that the word “Theos” applied to Yeshua is in a qualitative sence is a red herring.
If Theos in the NT does not mean “The True God”, then how can we know when the scriptures refers to the Father.
Answer of course is its context.
Concerning the New Testament word “Theos”.
1336 times the word “Theos” is found in the New Testament scriptures.
All were translated “God” referring to the Father and Yeshua, except 13 times for “False gods” including satan and the man of sin and man, and eight times Godly, and once Yeshua was quoting the Psalmist which was still under Old covenant law. Agency was still in play.
We know Paul used the word to describe the opposite of God, satan.
We know Yeshua is true, therefore he is “True Theos”.
So unless you resort to “Polytheism” which we know the Apostles were pure Monotheist, then you have two options…
1.You accept what the scrptures say.
Or
2.You deny them or twist them to say what you want.
I checked them all. Not once out of all 1336 times is there a mention of any Angel of God or man or king or ruler with the word “Theos”.
*Neither is there any example of the word “Theos” ascribed to a living man or king or lord or angel of the most high *in that day* other than Yeshua*.
Jn 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.John knew exactly what the word “Theos” meant to him, because in every other place the word is used for Yeshua, he used this word when he could have used another?
Do you think he would create this kind of confusion by using “Theos” in John 1:1 as well as John 20:28?
Why didnt he use “chrematizo, Acts 10:22, Heb 11:7”
or
“theios, 2 Pet 1:3,4, which by the way is used by Peter for divine nature and power, which t8 trys to force this word to mean that we are equal to Yeshua in substance and being. Yeshua *is* divine, “Theos”, not “Theios” which is what we share”, This word is found only these 3 times in scripture. Which describes his nature and not his being.
or
“theotes, Col 2:9”
or
“theiotes” Rom 1:20″
So ask yourself why didnt John use one of these words instead of “Theos” in John 1:1?
Why didn't Paul or Peter or Timothy or Titus, or the writer of Hebrews 1:8 use one of the other words?
You talk about being consistant with the word “Theos”.
It seems to me that being consistant with “Theos” is exactly what over 500 Greek and Hebrew scholars did when they translated John 1:1.
So the qestion is do we believe the Scriptures and the Apostles or not?
Again “Theos” is only used by the Apostles in New Testament scriptures for The Father and Yeshua and the opposites of God or false Gods.
Concerning the Unitarian interpretation of 1 Cor 8:6,
Here is what Paul the Hebrew of the Hebrews a strict monotheistic Jew acknowledged…
1 Cor 8:
4 Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and *that there is no God but one*.
5 For even *if there are so-called gods* whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, (we know there is only “one Lord, the Father and Yeshua).
6 yet *for us there is but one God*, the Father, from whom are all things and we {exist} for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
7 *However not all men have this knowledge*; but some, being accustomed to the idol until now, eat {food} as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.Let’s break it down.
Vrs 4.
Paul a strict Monotheist, speaks of Idols as being “no such thing” in the world, and that “there is NO GOD but ONE”Vrs 5.
Paul says they are “So called gods”, and many of them “gods and lords. We know there is only “ONE LORD” the Father and Yeshua”. Do you object to that?Vrs 6.
Paul declares “Yet for us there is but *ONE GOD*”. If you say Jesus is “A” God and he is your “LORD”, then that means also he is your God.Then in the same breath Paul goes on to say the “ONE GOD” is the Father, from whom are all things “and” the Lord Jesus Christ “by whom are all things” and we exist through Him.
If we “by Jesus” exist through him and are Gods children and belong to Jesus or God then Jesus is also God. Can you see that?
Vrs 7.
Then Paul declares that not all men have this knowledge.
Then he goes back to the Idols he was speaking of in Vrs 4.What knowledge do men lack?
It’s the knowledge that there are “so called gods” and “idols” that men worship but “for us” there is only *ONE God*, and *ONE LORD*, The Father and Yeshua!
The context plainly shows the contrast of other so called “gods and lords” with the Father and Yeshua.
Tell me , why would Paul speaking to Corinth who was battling with Polytheism and Paganism mention in the same breath The Father and Lord Jesus sharing the same attributes?
He couples them together between scriptures condemning Idol worship and Polytheism.
So truly this Jesus is as the scriptures proclaims!
He is God in the flesh reconciling the world unto himself
He is YHWH, the LORD from heaven!
But that is another topic!
Question for you t8?
*Is there any example of the word “Theos” ascribed to a living man or king or lord or Angel of the most high *in New Testament sciptures* other than Yeshua*?.
If not then maybe you should accept what the Apostles and the scriptures say concerning Yeshua being True “Theos”, and that all others are opposites or false.!!!
1 John 5:
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. *This is the true God, and eternal life*.
21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.Is Jesus your “Idol”?
He should be!!!
Selah
Hi W,
The fear of polytheism is no excuse for adding to scripture and using greek LOGIC to state that because of these things THEREFORE both Christ and his Father MUST BE the ONE GOD. You need to find the truth by better ways.We have one God.
Christ is our given Lord.
Christ is an idol to so many.1Jn5
21Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 31 2007,06:46) Hi W,
The fear of polytheism is no excuse for adding to scripture and using greek LOGIC to state that because of these things THEREFORE both Christ and his Father MUST BE the ONE GOD. You need to find the truth by better ways.We have one God.
Christ is our given Lord.
Christ is an idol to so many.1Jn5
21Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.
NHOpen your eyes!
You cant serve “Two” Masters.
Matt 6:24
No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other.Yet you call him your Lord and master! If he is not your God then the Jesus you follow is an “Idol” and you commit “Idolatry”!
Hi W,
I do wonder why you choose as a user name here evidence that Jesus alone is your god and not the Father. Do you not follow Jesus in this? That does also suggest that Jesus is not your Lord, yet he was appointed as such for us..WJ, thanks for your side of “Theos.”
I read everyone's posts, but I confess, when they are too long or too packed full of factoids (greek/latin/spanish)
I get frustrated easily and tend to start glossing over important information….. I guess along with the facts, maybe if you could tell a knock-knock joke or something to keep me awake, that would help? I'm only kidding. You have a lot of really good information here. I'll read it over again tonight when it's more quiet. Thanks, WJ.
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