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Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 23 2012,12:44) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 22 2012,19:38) 1. The bread “from heaven” (vs. 31) did not mean that it was actually manufactured in heaven and descended through the atmosphere, but rather that it was produced on the earth by God's Holy Spirit power. “From heaven”, therefore, emphasizes the divine origin of the bread. 2. Similarly, Christ came down from heaven, not literally…………..
It seems to me that your source must first be able to scripturally prove #1 before using it as support for their second claim.
The Hebrew idiom of coming from heaven or being sent by God. There are verses in the gospel of John that seem to say that Jesus Christ literally came to earth from heaven.Quote “No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.” (John 3:13) [The best Greek texts omit the last phrase, “who is in heaven.”] Quote “For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world” (John 6:33) In the verses above, Jesus Christ employs a Hebrew idiom where those things which are a blessing and good and holy are said to have come from God in heaven. For example the apostle James wrote,
Quote “Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.” James 1:17 And in John’s gospel the people state that the manna God provided for Israel in the wilderness came from heaven.
Quote “Our fathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’” (John 6:31) [see also Exodus 16:4] Every good and perfect gift does not literally come down from heaven, nor did the manna. We all understand this. This is simply a figure of speech called an idiom informing us that the manna that was eaten in the wilderness was provided by God, and the blessings we receive, even if they come through people or events, ultimately come from God. The verses in John’s gospel about Jesus coming from heaven need to be understood in the same way as we understand how the manna came and how we receive every good gift.
In a similar idiom, there are verses that state that Jesus Christ was “sent” from God. For example, the Lord Jesus said,
Quote “My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me, and to finish His work.” (John 4:34) How are we to understand this? Did Jesus literally descend from heaven to the earth? No, the Lord was sent by God in the same way that God sent John the Baptist.
Quote “There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.” (John 1:6) Neither John nor the Lord Jesus Christ came directly out of heaven to the earth. They simply were commissioned by God for the work they were called to do. Christians are sent ones too. Jesus Christ declared,
Quote “As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.” (John 17:18) Jesus Christ was sent into the world by God with His blessing and a ministry. We are sent into the world in this very same manner.
SOURCEMore of the same, Frank? You can post the same thing from 100 sources if you want to, but if they have no scriptural proof that the manna didn't literally come down from heaven as it is said, then they can't honestly use that as support that Jesus didn't literally come down from heaven as he said.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 23 2012,12:49) Hi Frank
You say
We find this figure of speech also repeated in John 6. In John 6:42 the Jews ask, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?” The Jews stumbled over Jesus' words, for they took Jesus statement literally. In trying to explain what he meant, Jesus chose to quote from the Old Testament:.John 6:45 “It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught of God.'
It is not figurative but spiritual.
Those who cannot understand Jesus Christ cannot yet be taught by God.They were wasting his time.
Jesus looks to a time when all are able to be taught by the Spirit.
Nick,You believe that Yahshua did not speak parabolically then, right?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 23 2012,12:54) More of the same, Frank? You can post the same thing from 100 sources if you want to, but if they have no scriptural proof that the manna didn't literally come down from heaven as it is said, then they can't honestly use that as support that Jesus didn't literally come down from heaven as he said.
Mike,Scripture does not say that manna and Yahshua LITERALLY came down from heaven.
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 23 2012,12:54) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 23 2012,12:49) Hi Frank
You say
We find this figure of speech also repeated in John 6. In John 6:42 the Jews ask, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?” The Jews stumbled over Jesus' words, for they took Jesus statement literally. In trying to explain what he meant, Jesus chose to quote from the Old Testament:.John 6:45 “It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught of God.'
It is not figurative but spiritual.
Those who cannot understand Jesus Christ cannot yet be taught by God.They were wasting his time.
Jesus looks to a time when all are able to be taught by the Spirit.
Nick,You believe that Yahshua did not speak parabolically then, right?
Hi Frank,
You ask if Jesus did not speak in parables?
Yes he did to those who were not spiritual.He bypassed their love of logic and fed them baby food.
But he wants listeners who are spiritual and can be taught by God.
Matthew 16:12
Then they understood that He did not say to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 23 2012,12:54) More of the same, Frank? You can post the same thing from 100 sources if you want to, but if they have no scriptural proof that the manna didn't literally come down from heaven as it is said, then they can't honestly use that as support that Jesus didn't literally come down from heaven as he said.
Mike,Then you need to show Scriptural proof that manner and Yahshua LITERALLY came down from heaven.
“I came down from Heaven” (Jn. 6:33,38) / “No man has ascended into heaven, but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man who is in heaven” (Jn. 3:13)
“The bread of God is he which comes down from heaven, and gives life unto the world…I came down from heaven” (Jn. 6:33,38).
These words, and others like them, are misused to support the wrong idea that Jesus existed in Heaven before his birth. The following points, however, must be noted.
1. Trinitarians take these words as literal in order to prove their point. However, if we are to take them literally, then this means that somehow Jesus literally came down as a person. Not only is the Bible totally silent about this, but the language of Jesus being conceived as a baby in Mary’s womb is made meaningless. Jn.6:60 describes the teaching about the manna as a saying “hard to take in” (Moffatt’s Translation); i.e. we need to understand that it is figurative language being used.
2. In Jn. 6, Jesus is explaining how the manna was a type of himself. The manna was sent from God in the sense that it was God who was responsible for creating it on the earth; it did not physically float down from the throne of God in Heaven. Thus Christ’s coming from Heaven is to be understood likewise; he was created on earth, by the Holy Spirit acting upon the womb of Mary (Lk.1:35).
3. Jesus says that “the bread that I will give is my flesh” (Jn.6:51). Trinitarians claim that it was the ‘God’ part of Jesus which came down from Heaven. But Jesus says that it was his “flesh” which was the bread which came down from Heaven. Likewise Jesus associates the bread from Heaven with himself as the “Son of man” (Jn. 6:62), not ‘God the Son’.
4. In this same passage in Jn. 6 there is abundant evidence that Jesus was not equal to God. “The living Father has sent me” (Jn. 6:57) shows that Jesus and God do not share co-equality; and the fact that “I live by the Father” (Jn. 6:57) is hardly the ‘co-eternity’ of which Trinitarians speak.
5. It must be asked, When and how did Jesus ‘come down’ from Heaven? Trinitarians use these verses in Jn. 6 to ‘prove’ that Jesus came down from Heaven at his birth. But Jesus speaks of himself as “he which cometh down from heaven” (v.33,50), as if it is an ongoing process. Speaking of God’s gift of Jesus, Christ said “My Father is giving you the bread” from Heaven (v.32 Weymouth). At the time Jesus was speaking these words, he had already ‘come down’ in a certain sense, in that he had been sent by God. Because of this, he could also speak in the past tense: “I am the living bread which came down from Heaven” (v.51). But he also speaks about ‘coming down’ as the bread from Heaven in the form of his death on the cross: “The bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world” (v.51). So we have Jesus speaking here of having already come down from Heaven, being in the process of ‘coming down’, and still having to ‘come down’ in his death on the cross. This fact alone should prove that ‘coming down’ refers to God manifesting Himself, rather than only referring to Christ’s birth. This is conclusively proved by all the Old Testament references to God ‘coming down’ having just this same meaning. Thus God saw the affliction of His people in Egypt, and ‘came down’ to save them through Moses. He has seen our bondage to sin, and has ‘come down’ or manifested Himself, by sending Jesus as the equivalent to Moses to lead us out of bondage.The Lord Jesus was “the beginning of God's creation” (Rev. 3:15)- He was a created being and as such in whatever form He 'came down from Heaven', He was still not God Himself. Hugh Schonfield comments: “Clearly John himself believed that the heavenly Christ was a created being, as did the early Christians” (1).
A Devotional Appeal
The Lord's language of coming down from Heaven can be understood from a very powerful devotional aspect. He reasons that because He had come down from Heaven, therefore, whoever comes to Him, He would never reject (Jn. 6:37,38). The connection is in the word “come”. We 'come' to Jesus not by physically travelling towards Him, but in our mental attitudes. He likewise 'comes' to us, not by moving trillions of kilometers from Heaven to earth, but in His 'coming' down into our lives and experiences. If He has come so very far to meet us, and we come to Him… then surely we will meet and He will not turn away from us, exactly because He has 'come' so far to meet us. This theme continues throughout John's Gospel. “What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?” (Jn. 6:62) is therefore not a reference to Him physically travelling off anywhere- He is saying that if people would not 'come' to Him in meeting, then He would withdraw the opportunity from them. He wouldn't stand waiting for them indefinitely. This explains the urgency behind His appeals to 'come' to Him. He had 'come down', and was waiting for people to 'come' to Him. He's come a huge distance, from the heavenly heights of His own spirituality, to meet with whores and gamblers, hobby level religionists, self-absorbed little people… and if we truly come to Him, if we want to meet with Him, then of course He will never turn us away. For it was to meet with us that He 'came down'. This approach shows the fallacy of interpreting His 'coming down' to us and our 'coming' to Him in a literal sense.
And yet this Lord of all grace also sought to confirm men and women in the path they chose. He admitted that His comment about Himself being the manna which descended from Heaven was a “hard saying”. And yet He goes straight on to say [perhaps with a slight smile playing at the corner of His lips] something even more enigmatic: “What and if you shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?” (Jn. 6:62). Surely He is here chosing to give them yet another, even harder “saying”; and goes on to stress that His sayings, His words, are the way to life eternal (Jn. 6:63). For those who didn't want His words, He was confirming them in their darkness. And He did this by the mechanism of using an evidently “hard saying”. Therefore to simplistically interpret the saying as meaning that the Lord had literally descended from Heaven through the sky just as literally as He would ascend there through the clouds… is in fact to quite miss the point- that this is a “hard saying”. It's not intended to have a simplistic, literalistic interpretation.
Notes
(1) Hugh Schonfield, The Original New Testament: Revelation (London: Firethorn Press, 1985) footnote on Rev. 3:15.
“No man has ascended into heaven, but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man who is in heaven” (Jn. 3:13)The context of John 3 is the Lord's discourse with Nicodemus. This passages highlights the difference between flesh and spirit, human understanding and spiritual perception, literal birth and the birth “from above” (Jn. 3:3,5). All this suggests that we are to understand 'Heaven' and (by implication) 'earth' in a figurative manner. The Lord J
esus speaks as if He has already ascended into Heaven- yet He spoke these words during His ministry. In any case, He speaks of how “the Son of man” will do these things, and not 'God the Son', as would be required by Trinitarian theology. To suggest that Jesus as Son of Man literally ascended to Heaven and descended to earth during His ministry is surely literalism's last gasp. There are many allusions to Moses throughout John's record, as if both the Lord Jesus and John were seeking to impress upon the audience that the Lord Jesus was indeed the Messianic “prophet like unto” Moses predicted in Dt. 18:15,18. Jewish writings of the time [e.g. Wisdom of Solomon] spoke of Moses' ascent of Sinai as an ascension into Heaven, descending to Israel with the Law (1). This language is being picked up and applied to the Lord Jesus.The Lord Jesus has just spoken of how believers in Him are to be “born from above” and “born of the Spirit” (Jn. 3:3,5). However, the same Greek words for “born” and “Spirit” are found in Mt. 1:20 and Lk. 1:35- in description of the virgin birth of Jesus. He was the ultimate example of one “born of the Spirit”. And yet John's Gospel applies the language of the virgin birth to believers. We have another example in Jn. 1:13- the believers “were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God”- i.e., they were born “of the Spirit”. My suggestion is that the Lord Jesus is saying in Jn. 3:13 that of course, He is the only one fully born of the Spirit, the only one in Heavenly places; but the preceding context makes clear that He is willing to count believers in Him as fully sharing His status. Further, we need no longer complain that His virgin birth makes Him have some unfair advantages in the battle against sin which we don't have. The spiritual rebirth experienced by all those truly born again by God's word, His “seed” (1 Pet. 1:23), is such that we in some way are given all the inclinations towards righteousness which the Lord Jesus had by virtue of His birth.
Notes
(1) More references to this effect in Ben Witherington, John's Wisdom: A Commentary on the Fourth Gospel (Louisville: Westminster John Knox, 1995) p. 100.
SOURCEQuote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 22 2012,20:09) Mike, Then you need to show Scriptural proof that manner and Yahshua LITERALLY came down from heaven.
Frank, there are SO MANY scriptures that support a literal coming down from heaven, and if you want, I will go through and list a bunch of them. But first, let's just deal with John 6:62 –
What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!This is in the same teaching where Jesus said “I came down from heaven”. Was Jesus speaking literally in verse 62? Did he not literally ascend back to heaven before the very eyes of some who were there when he said these words?
If the ascension was literally to heaven, then what makes you think the descension wasn't equally literally from heaven? Pay close attention to the words “where he WAS BEFORE”.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 23 2012,13:08) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 23 2012,12:54) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 23 2012,12:49) Hi Frank
You say
We find this figure of speech also repeated in John 6. In John 6:42 the Jews ask, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?” The Jews stumbled over Jesus' words, for they took Jesus statement literally. In trying to explain what he meant, Jesus chose to quote from the Old Testament:.John 6:45 “It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught of God.'
It is not figurative but spiritual.
Those who cannot understand Jesus Christ cannot yet be taught by God.They were wasting his time.
Jesus looks to a time when all are able to be taught by the Spirit.
Nick,You believe that Yahshua did not speak parabolically then, right?
Hi Frank,
You ask if Jesus did not speak in parables?
Yes he did to those who were not spiritual.He bypassed their love of logic and fed them baby food.
But he wants listeners who are spiritual and can be taught by God.
Matthew 16:12
Then they understood that He did not say to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.
Nick,Now if you could only see (perceive, understand) Father Yahweh's spiritual word!
Hi Frank
,
From your source
“The Lord Jesus has just spoken of how believers in Him are to be “born from above” and “born of the Spirit” (Jn. 3:3,5). However, the same Greek words for “born” and “Spirit” are found in Mt. 1:20 and Lk. 1:35- in description of the virgin birth of Jesus. He was the ultimate example of one “born of the Spirit”. And yet John's Gospel applies the language of the virgin birth to believers. We have another example in Jn. 1:13- the believers “were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God”- i.e., they were born “of the Spirit”. My suggestion is that the Lord Jesus is saying in Jn. 3:13 that of course, He is the only one fully born of the Spirit, the only one in Heavenly places; but the preceding context makes clear that He is willing to count believers in Him as fully sharing His status. “Have you not yet been reborn from above that you need to make theories?
You haven't been born again from above either, Nick. If you had been, you would no longer be flesh.
Ones who will someday be born again from above will be spirit and water, and not consist of any flesh.
Hi MB,
The disciples were reborn from above at Pentecost and transformed in the same way as the Master was at the Jordan.That promise remains available.Nick,
IF and when you are ever born again from above, you will no longer consist of flesh, but be spirit. No will human eyes be able to see you anymore, for you will be like the wind in this respect. (John 3:3-8)
Receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit is not being born again, Nick. Bottom line: If you still consist of flesh, you have not yet been born again from above.
Hi MB,
Which catechism are you reading this dogma from?
Were the apostles born again from above?
Did they have the Spirit of Christ?Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 23 2012,13:15) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 22 2012,20:09) Mike, Then you need to show Scriptural proof that manner and Yahshua LITERALLY came down from heaven.
Frank, there are SO MANY scriptures that support a literal coming down from heaven, and if you want, I will go through and list a bunch of them. But first, let's just deal with John 6:62 –
What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!This is in the same teaching where Jesus said “I came down from heaven”. Was Jesus speaking literally in verse 62? Did he not literally ascend back to heaven before the very eyes of some who were there when he said these words?
If the ascension was literally to heaven, then what makes you think the descension wasn't equally literally from heaven? Pay close attention to the words “where he WAS BEFORE”.
“I Came Down From Heaven” (John 6:38).“This is a hard saying, who can understand it?” asked the disciples (v.60). It was followed by one even more difficult: “What and if ye shall see the Son of Man ascend up where he was before?” So ridiculous did this sound to some of Jesus' disciples that they left him (v.66). And that conclusively proves that they knew nothing of the theory of a pre-existent Christ.
Moreover, consider the title the Lord used. He described himself as “Son of Man.”
Was the pre-existent one a Son of Man? Evidently he was if this reference is relied upon as proof of his supposed pre-existence.
What did the Lord mean by these difficult sayings?
They appear at the end of a long conversation with the Jews, based upon the giving of manna in the wilderness, and the circumstances provide the key to their meaning.
The manna is described as “bread from heaven” (John 6:32), and the Lord likened himself to anti-typical manna or “bread from heaven” (vv. 32-33). Does this description mean that the manna was manufactured in heaven, at the dwelling place of God, and wafted down in a thick cloud every night through the illimitable spaces above to the wilderness below? Or did God send His spirit to earth, and there manufacture it?
Undoubtedly the latter, as any reasonable person will concede.
That is the sense, therefore, in which we must understand the Lord's allusions to himself. Consider the circumstances of his birth. The angel told his mother:
“The holy spirit shall come upon thee, the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee, therefore that holy thing that shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God” (Luke 1:35).
Jesus was “the only begotten Son of God” and therefore from above. Paul taught that “God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself” (2 Cor. 5:19). That which was in Christ (the Spirit) had come down from heaven, and tabernacling in the flesh of Jesus, ascended into heaven after his resurrection.
That this is the true meaning, is shown by the explanatory words of the Lord himself. To the confused disciples he declared:
“What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing” (John 6:62-63).
God, by His spirit, descended to earth to provide one of the human race capable of conquering sin (see Ps. 80:17), and having done so, He withdrew this one to heaven, having changed his nature from a body of flesh to one of spirit, for it should be clearly understood that a spirit being is corporeal (1 Cor. 15:44-45). Thus the Spirit ascended where it was before, though in a different form. It descended as the power of God; it ascended as a Son of Man made immortal.
Excepted from:
SOURCEQuote (Nick Hassan @ April 22 2012,20:38) Were the apostles born again from above?
I believe some of them have been by now. But no, they were not born from above while they still dwelled on the earth as flesh beings.Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 22 2012,20:44) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 23 2012,13:15) What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! Thus the Spirit ascended where it was before, though in a different form. It descended as the power of God; it ascended as a Son of Man made immortal.
So then it wasn't TRULY “the Son of Man” who ascended to where he was before?Frank, if it wasn't truly THE SON OF MAN who descended in the first place, then it couldn't truly be THE SON OF MAN who ascended to where he was before.
Why do the explanations of the non-preexisters never seem match the actual words of the scripture in question?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 23 2012,13:52) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 22 2012,20:38) Were the apostles born again from above?
I believe some of them have been by now. But no, they were not born from above while they still dwelled on the earth as flesh beings.
Hi MB,
So a hit and miss possiblity?No you have no awareness of what is means
You should take advantage of the offer still open in acts 2.39
Read what happened at pentecost and with Paul en route to Damascus.Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 23 2012,13:37) Nick, IF and when you are ever born again from above, you will no longer consist of flesh, but be spirit. No will human eyes be able to see you anymore, for you will be like the wind in this respect. (John 3:3-8)
Receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit is not being born again, Nick. Bottom line: If you still consist of flesh, you have not yet been born again from above.
But they were startled and frightened and thought that they were seeing a spirit. And he said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? “See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; touch me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet. While they still could not believe it because of their joy and amazement, he said to them, “Have you anything here to eat?” They gave him a piece of a broiled fish; and he took it and ate it before them.
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