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Quote (Ed J @ April 22 2012,11:43) Spin
edjSPIN”? the word of the unbelievers ,it is not because you can not see it in scriptures that it is not there ,
you have to look for it more deeply,or may be just believe what it says right
Quote (terraricca @ April 22 2012,04:57) Quote (Ed J @ April 22 2012,11:43) Spin
edjSPIN”? the word of the unbelievers ,it is not because you can not see it in scriptures that it is not there ,
you have to look for it more deeply,or may be just believe what it says right
Spin: To present an incident in a particularly slanted or biased manner.Quote (Ed J @ April 22 2012,12:41) Quote (terraricca @ April 22 2012,04:57) Quote (Ed J @ April 22 2012,11:43) Spin
edjSPIN”? the word of the unbelievers ,it is not because you can not see it in scriptures that it is not there ,
you have to look for it more deeply,or may be just believe what it says right
Spin: To present an incident in a particularly slanted or biased manner.
edj“The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach
good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim
liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,” (Isaiah 61:1-2)do you understand all of this
?if you do show me what each expression means ;
1)”The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me
2) because the LORD hath anointed
3) to preach
good tidings unto the meek;4) he hath sent me
5)to bind up the brokenhearted,
6)to proclaim
liberty to the captives,7) and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
8)To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,”
answer each one of them ;
Hi MB,
You say
“So please SCRIPTUALLY explain to me how it was impossible for Jesus to have existed as a spirit son of God BEFORE he was conceived in the womb of a woman, thereby beginning his HUMAN existence. “We are back to
YOU PROVE ME WRONG?Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 22 2012,01:40) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 21 2012,00:11) Hi MB,
So when was you preexistent lesser god born first??
Jude says he was Lord “before all ages”, Nick.But aren't you supposed to be showing me from SCRIPTURE how my pre-existent understanding is impossible?
I await the first SCRIPTURE from any of you that prohibits Jesus from existing as a spirit being before being made in the likeness of a human being. (After all, this is exactly what is taught in the scriptures.)
Hi MB,
Which verse in Jude says this?WHY DO OTHERS HAVE TO PROVE YOUR THEORY WRONG?
If you thought Paul was Peter YOU would have to prove it.
Nick,
Proverbs 8:22-31 NIV
22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;
23 I was formed long ages ago,
at the very beginning, when the world came to be.
24 When there were no watery depths, I was given birth,
when there were no springs overflowing with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the world or its fields
or any of the dust of the earth.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was constantly at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.Proverbs 30:4 NIV
4 Who has gone up to heaven and come down?
Whose hands have gathered up the wind?
Who has wrapped up the waters in a cloak?
Who has established all the ends of the earth?
What is his name, and what is the name of his son?
Surely you know!Micah 5:2 NIV
2 “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clans of Judah,
out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from of old,
from ancient times.”Isaiah 11:1 NIV
A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.Isaiah 11:10 NIV
In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his place of rest will be glorious.Matthew 22:41-46 NIV
41While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42″What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?”
“The son of David,” they replied.
43He said to them, “How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him 'Lord'? For he says,
44″ 'The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies
under your feet.” ' 45If then David calls him 'Lord,' how can he be his son?” 46No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.Matthew 23:37 NIV
37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.John 1:1-3 NWT
In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2 This one was in [the] beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.John 1:9-12 NIV
9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—John 1:14 NIV
14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the only begotten, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.John 1:15 NWT
15 (John bore witness about him, yes, he actually cried out—this was the one who said [it]—saying: “The one coming behind me has advanced in front of me, because he existed before me.”)John 3:13 NIV
13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.John 3:16-19 NIV
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.John 3:31 NIV
31The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all.John 5:19-20 NIV
19 Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, and he will show him even greater works than these, so that you will be amazed.John 6:32-33 NIV
32 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”John 6:35 NIV
35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.John 6:38 NIV
38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.John 6:41-42 NIV
41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”John 6:46 NIV
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.John 6:48-51 NIV
48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”John 6:62 NIV
62What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!John 8:12 NIV
When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”John 8:23 NIV
23 But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.John 8:38 NIV
38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence, and you are doing what you have heard from your father.”John 8:42 NET
Jesus replied, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come from God and am now here. I have not come on my own initiative, but he sent me.”John 8:58 NWT
58 Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.”John 9:5 NIV
While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”John 13:3 NIV
Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God;John 16:28 NIV
“I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father.”John 17:5 NRSV
So now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the
glory that I had in your presence before the world existed.Romans 1:3 NIV
regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David,Romans 8:3 NIV
For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.Romans 9:5 NASB
whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.1 Corinthians 8:6 NIV
6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.1 Corinthians 10:3-4 NIV
3They all ate the same spiritual food 4and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.1 Corinthians 11:3 NIV
3 But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.1 Corinthians 15:47 NIV
47The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven.Galatians 4:4-5 NIV
4But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, 5to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons.Philippians 2:6-8 NIV
6Who, being in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the form of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!Colossians 1:15-17 NIV
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.1 Timothy 3:16 NWT
16 Indeed, the sacred secret of this godly devotion is admittedly great: ‘He was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, appeared to angels, was preached about among nations, was believed upon in [the] world, was received up in glory.’Hebrews 1:1-2 NIV
1In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.Hebrews 1:6 NWT
But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: “And let all God’s angels do obeisance to him.”Hebrews 1:10 NIV
10He also says,
“In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.Hebrews 2:14 NIV
Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil—Hebrews 10:5 NIV
5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;1 John 1:1 NIV
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life.1 John 2:12-13 NIV
12I write to you, dear children,
because your sins have been forgiven on account of his name.
13I write to you, fathers,
because you have known him who is from the beginning.1 John 4:9 NIV
In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.Jude 1:25 NIV
25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.Revelation 3:14 NWT
14 “And to the angel of the congregation in La‧o‧di‧ce′a write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God.Revelation 19:13 NIV
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.Revelation 22:16 NIV
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”These are the scriptures that SUPPORT the pre-existence of Jesus. Surely if you are to insist that he DIDN'T pre-exist, then you have at least ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE to support YOUR theory, right?
That's is all I'm asking for.
Good. Pick just one of them to start, and show me how it prohibits the pre-existence of Jesus.
I'll be waiting.
Hi MB,
Prohibit?
You prove what you claim.
Inference with logic is never going to be a sound foundation.Nick, YOU are the one claiming that Jesus DIDN'T pre-exist – despite all the scriptures to the contrary. Show me the SCRIPTURE that makes it so clear to you that Jesus COULDN'T HAVE pre-existed his flesh.
I know there is none already. This exercise was only to prove to you guys that all you have are your personal thoughts that Jesus didn't pre-exist – and they are based on personal WISHES for Jesus to have been exactly like the rest of us.
That's why Marty didn't bother to respond, because I've already done this exercise with him before. He already knows what you now know – there is NO SCRIPTURAL REASON to believe that Jesus did NOT pre-exist, while there is LOADS OF SCRIPTURAL EVIDENCE to support the fact he DID.
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 20 2012,14:00) Quote (942767 @ April 20 2012,13:21) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 16 2012,14:26) Quote (942767 @ April 16 2012,14:03) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 16 2012,13:27) Hi 94,
Begotten son or conceived son?
Hi Nick:This is the event to which I refer. Jesus was uniquely begotten of God in the womb of the virgin Mary. Maybe I did not use the proper word.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,Begotten technically means 'to be born', right? Yahshua would have had to be conceived first then 9 months later begotten or born, right? The word 'conceive means 'to become pregnant', right? The article that I just posted makes it known that he was born or begotten and then much later was BORN and begotten AGAIN. Yahshua said that one must be “BORN AGAIN” to inherit the Kingdom, right?
Yahshua answered, “Truly, I tell you with certainty, unless one is born of water and Spirit he cannot enter the Kingdom of Yahweh. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the spirit is spirit. Do not be surprised that I said to you that you must be born again.
Hi Frank:I understand the word “begotten” to mean “to procreate” or “generate” life. Life begins at conception, and so this means in the womb of Mary.
He was born into this world, anointed with the Holy Spirit after he was baptized at the Jordan, and he was the first man to born again from the dead.
Love in Christ,
Marty
942767,I understand the word “begotten” in reference to Yahshua as being the “only begotten” son of Yahweh to his being born [begotten] again of the spirit. Yahshua was begotten of the flesh and then again later begotten again of the spirit of Yahweh. All men are born of the flesh as was Yahshua born of the flesh, but are later born of the spirit if and when they find favor with Father Yahweh. Note that it was much later in Yahshua's life that that Father Yahweh said “This is My son in whom I am well pleased.” Then Yahshua continued to please and find favor with his and our Father Yahweh till his very death. Note also that Yahshua before he was executed asked his and our Father Yahweh that He might remove this cup from him, but then he yet proceeded to say “Not my will, but your will be done.” Then after Yahshua had been executed he was resurrected and brought back to ETERNAL life by his and our Father Yahweh.
Hi Frank and Nick:Jesus is not “the Only Son of God” to be born of the Spirit of God. He is the first Son to be born again from the dead, but we who have born again from the dead through him are also born of the Spirit.
Quote Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence. Quote Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
Jhn 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.Quote Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. But the Scripture states:
Quote Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life He was a Son of God as an infant born under the Law of Moses:
Quote Hbr 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;And so, this “is the uniquely begotten Son” that God gave to the world.
At the age of 12 he made the comment that he must be about His Father's business, and at the age of 30 he was anointed by God and sent into the world to preach the gospel and to give his life as the propitiation for our sins.
He did not have to give his life. He was already God's sinless Son. He obeyed the Law withouth sin, and he was God's heir. Every thing that God made was given to him.
But he said:
Quote Jhn 17:18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. Jhn 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (mikeboll64 @ April 16 2012,12:21) Quote (942767 @ April 15 2012,18:12) “The Word” is that which God has spoken. In Hebrews 1 the scripture states that in these last days “God has spoken to us through His Son”. What God has spoken is the Word of God Love in Christ,
Marty
And is that the case also in Revelation 19:13, Marty? Is the rider on the horse “that which God has spoken”?If not, tell me in your own words what or who “Word of God” refers to in that verse. Kerwin, you're also invited to this little exercise.
Hi Mike:The scripture does not say that “he is the Word of God” but that “his name is called the Word of God”, but yes, to answer your question, the rider of the horse is “the Word that God has spoken”. He obeyed the Word of God that God spoke to humanity through him without sin even unto death on the cross, and in his position as head of the church, he will judge to living and the dead by this Word.
In other words Mike, he is not the origin of the Word that God spoke. Hebrews 1 states that inthese last days God has spoken to us through his Son.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ April 21 2012,19:19) but yes, to answer your question, the rider of the horse is “the Word that God has spoken”.
So the LIVING BEING of Jesus Christ is a word that God spoke?Marty, don't you feel even a little bit ashamed when you have to claim nonsense to support your flawed, unscriptural doctrine?
The correct and scriptural answer is that the Word of God in Rev 19:13 is Jesus Christ. Do you agree with the correct and scriptural answer, Marty?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 22 2012,12:21) Quote (942767 @ April 21 2012,19:19) but yes, to answer your question, the rider of the horse is “the Word that God has spoken”.
So the LIVING BEING of Jesus Christ is a word that God spoke?Marty, don't you feel even a little bit ashamed when you have to claim nonsense to support your flawed, unscriptural doctrine?
The correct and scriptural answer is that the Word of God in Rev 19:13 is Jesus Christ. Do you agree with the correct and scriptural answer, Marty?
Hi Mike:A person is defined by the life that he lives. He said:
Quote Jhn 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. Jhn 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
Jhn 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
Do you now understand.
Quote Rev 19:11 ¶ And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. Love in Christ,
MartyJohn 1:1
Amplified Bible (AMP)
John 1
1IN THE beginning [before all time] was the Word ([a]Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself.Revelation 19:13
Amplified Bible (AMP)
13He is dressed in a robe dyed by [a]dipping in blood, and the title by which He is called is The Word of God.Geneva Study Bible
In {1} the {a} beginning {b} was {c} the Word, and the Word was {d} with God, and the {e} Word was God.
(1) The Son of God is of one and the selfsame eternity or everlastingness, and of one and the selfsame essence or nature with the Father.
(a) From the beginning, as the evangelist says in 1Jo 1:1; it is as though he said that the Word did not begin to have his being when God began to make all that was made: for the Word was even then when all things that were made began to be made, and therefore he was before the beginning of all things.
(b) Had his being.
 This word the points out to us a peculiar and choice thing above all others, and puts a difference between this Word, which is the Son of God, and the laws of God, which are also called the word of God.
(d) This word with points out that there is a distinction of persons here.
(e) This word Word is the first in order in the sentence, and is the subject of the sentence, and this word God is the latter in order, and is the predicate of the sentence.
case closed
Mike,
I cannot say for sure how each angel came to be as I have not looked into the matter. Like any living creature, they can be said to have been conceived, but maybe not sullambanó which deals with certain types of the works of God.
Scripture does use allegory but the account of Jesus’ conception is not allegoric. James uses sullambanó in such a way that allegorically Lust becomes the mother of Sin; who is conceived in her. Other than that and those contexts that reveal it means conception, it is translated to either helps or arrests according to the context of the passage.
We know that Scripture declares John the Baptist was sullambanó in his mother’s womb and so came to be; for it is written:
Luke 1:24
King James Version (KJV)24And after those days his wife Elisabeth conceived, and hid herself five months, saying,
We know the angel stated that Jesus would also be and was sullambanó in his mother’s womb; for it is written:
Luke 1:31
King James Version (KJV)31And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
and
Luke 2:21
King James Version (KJV)21And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.
Scripture declares that just as Jesus was sullambanó in his mother’s womb so was John the Baptist in his own mother’s; just as it is written:
Luke 1:36
King James Version (KJV)36And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.
Just as when John was sullambanó in his mother’s womb he came to be a whole being; so to when Jesus was sullambanó in his mother’s womb he became a whole being.
What scripture does make clear is that John was miraculously conceived in whom of a woman said to be barren while Jesus was miraculously came to exist in a virgin. Just as John the Baptist did not preexist his conception; so too Jesus did not preexist his because any being only comes to exist one time.
It is true that a man sires a child but that Jesus was not sired by the seed of man but instead he was procreated by the power of God through the Spirit of God which is why the angels assuaged Joseph’s concerns about the source of Mary’s conception of Jesus with:
Matthew 1:20
King James Version (KJV)20But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
In this way Joseph came to understand that God chose Mary as the mother of a miraculously conceived offspring; and we know her line is the line of David.
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