JOHN 1:1 who is the WORD?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Not3in1 @ May 30 2007,07:46)

Also since no man had seen God at any time and Jesus was also man and had seen God, then the question would be when did he see God? ************************************************************* WJ, the verse doesn't say that Jesus saw God, it says “…..he hath declared him.”  Jesus made God known.  Because no one had seen the Father – Jesus made him known.  Anyway, that's my take.

not3

Then what does this scripure mean to you…

Jn 6:46
*Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father*.

   

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (942767 @ May 29 2007,10:01)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 28 2007,18:22) 94 You say… Quote But let me just ask you the following questions.  Did the body of Jesus exist before before he was born of the Virgin Mary?  And if we are saying “the body of Jesus”.  Who then is Jesus? There are many Hebrew scriptures that show Christ appeared to many before he came in the flesh. Dan 3:25 just one example… He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God. I encourage you to listen to some of these messages with open heart! http://www.eadshome.com/Jesuslessons.htm Blessings Hi WJ: And so, you are saying by the above statement and scripture that Jesus already had a body before he was born of  the virgin Mary?

94

No. Does he have to have a natural body to exist. Are not we Spirit beings who has a soul and lives in a body?

We don’t know exactly what he was, but we know he was in the “Form” of God. Phil 2:6, and he was with God. John 1:1 and Jn 17:5.

John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and *dwelt among us*, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The word “dwelt” is ‘skenoo’ which means…

1) to fix one's tabernacle, have one's tabernacle, abide (or live) in a tabernacle (or tent), tabernacle

It comes from the root, ‘skēnos’ which means…

1) a tabernacle, a tent
2) metaph. of the human body, in which the soul dwells as in a tent, and which is taken down at death

So the word that was with God and was God was tabernacled among us.

Blessings

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 30 2007,07:51)

Hi Not3, Christ was before John the baptist, David and Abraham. How can this be?

How can what be?

[Not3in1]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 30 2007,08:32)

Quote (Not3in1 @ May 30 2007,07:46) Also since no man had seen God at any time and Jesus was also man and had seen God, then the question would be when did he see God? ************************************************************* WJ, the verse doesn't say that Jesus saw God, it says “…..he hath declared him.”  Jesus made God known.  Because no one had seen the Father – Jesus made him known.  Anyway, that's my take. not3 Then what does this scripure mean to you… Jn 6:46 *Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father*.

Hi WJ, my point was that Jesus didn't see God before he was born. Of course he saw the Father after he existed.

[NickHassan]

Hi not3,

Scripture says these things about the root of David. What does this mean to you?

[NickHassan]

Quote (Not3in1 @ May 30 2007,09:59)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 30 2007,08:32) Quote (Not3in1 @ May 30 2007,07:46) Also since no man had seen God at any time and Jesus was also man and had seen God, then the question would be when did he see God? ************************************************************* WJ, the verse doesn't say that Jesus saw God, it says “…..he hath declared him.”  Jesus made God known.  Because no one had seen the Father – Jesus made him known.  Anyway, that's my take. not3 Then what does this scripure mean to you… Jn 6:46 *Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father*.     Hi WJ, my point was that Jesus didn't see God before he was born.  Of course he saw the Father after he existed.

Hi not3,
When was this?
If we are like him can we too?

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 30 2007,10:00)

Hi not3, Scripture says these things about the root of David. What does this mean to you?

Says what things – I think I'm really missing something here. Forgive me, sometimes I am REALLY blonde

[NickHassan]

Hi not3,
Looking at what Jesus said in Jn 8
” Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it , and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.”

He says he IS before Abraham.
He is the root of David too.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 30 2007,10:01)

Quote (Not3in1 @ May 30 2007,09:59) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 30 2007,08:32) Quote (Not3in1 @ May 30 2007,07:46) Also since no man had seen God at any time and Jesus was also man and had seen God, then the question would be when did he see God? ************************************************************* WJ, the verse doesn't say that Jesus saw God, it says “…..he hath declared him.”  Jesus made God known.  Because no one had seen the Father – Jesus made him known.  Anyway, that's my take. not3 Then what does this scripure mean to you… Jn 6:46 *Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father*.     Hi WJ, my point was that Jesus didn't see God before he was born.  Of course he saw the Father after he existed. Hi not3, When was this? If we are like him can we too?

John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one wh is from God; only he has seen the Father.”

John 5: 37 – by implication.

John 5:20
“For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does.”

John 8:29
“The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone…”

There are more but that is a good start, no?

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 30 2007,10:08)

He says he IS before Abraham. He is the root of David too.

Thanks for the clarification, Nick.

How can someone be the “root” and the “offspring” of someone? Could this possibly relate to my understanding of John 1:1? I think it could.

Because Jesus was God before he was born (in the same way a son is his father before he is conceived), then it is true of Jesus to say he is the ROOT of David. Then Jesus became the Son of God and the Son of man, and he is the OFFSPRING of David. This makes sense to me.

[942767]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2007,16:12)

Hi 94, Are you hoping for salvation by works? If so you may find mercy in the second resurrection but only if those works are done to those in Christ. If you follow the way of Jesus it is his works not ours, that save us.

No Nick:

His works paved the way for we to follow his example.  He obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross.  We as born again Christians strive to obey his commandments but we make mistakes, and so, we are not saved works because we make mistakes, and so, if it were not for the shed blood of Jesus that washes away our sin when repent, we could not be saved.  

It would be the same for any one who is saved including those illustrated as righteous in Matthew 25.  Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:  
2:9
Not of works, lest any man should boast.  
2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.  

Matt.7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.  
7:22
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?  
7:23
And then will I profess unto them *, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.  
7:24
Therefore whosoever * * heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:  
7:25
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way *, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Not3in1 @ May 30 2007,10:18)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 30 2007,10:08) He says he IS before Abraham. He is the root of David too. Thanks for the clarification, Nick. How can someone be the “root” and the “offspring” of someone?  Could this possibly relate to my understanding of John 1:1?  I think it could. Because Jesus was God before he was born (in the same way a son is his father before he is conceived), then it is true of Jesus to say he is the ROOT of David.  Then Jesus became the Son of God and the Son of man, and he is the OFFSPRING of David.  This makes sense to me.

Hi Not3,
I was not man before I became man??
Roots do not mean offspring but precede branches which are their offspring

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 30 2007,10:26)

Quote (Not3in1 @ May 30 2007,10:18) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 30 2007,10:08) He says he IS before Abraham. He is the root of David too. Thanks for the clarification, Nick. How can someone be the “root” and the “offspring” of someone?  Could this possibly relate to my understanding of John 1:1?  I think it could. Because Jesus was God before he was born (in the same way a son is his father before he is conceived), then it is true of Jesus to say he is the ROOT of David.  Then Jesus became the Son of God and the Son of man, and he is the OFFSPRING of David.  This makes sense to me. Hi Not3, I was not man before I became man?? Roots do not mean offspring but precede branches which are their offspring

God is the root of everything and every one.

God produced offspring.

Jesus is the root (because he came from the root and indeed “was” the root).

Jesus is the offspring because he was born of God and Mary.

[NickHassan]

Hi not3,
So when was Christ the root of David?
When he was with God in the beginning as Word?

[NickHassan]

Quote (942767 @ May 30 2007,10:21)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2007,16:12) Hi 94, Are you hoping for salvation by works? If so you may find mercy in the second resurrection but only if those works are done to those in Christ. If you follow the way of Jesus it is his works not ours, that save us. No Nick: His works paved the way for we to follow his example.  He obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross.  We as born again Christians strive to obey his commandments but we make mistakes, and so, we are not saved works because we make mistakes, and so, if it were not for the shed blood of Jesus that washes away our sin when repent, we could not be saved.   It would be the same for any one who is saved including those illustrated as righteous in Matthew 25.  Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:   2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.   2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.   Matt.7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.   7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?   7:23 And then will I profess unto them *, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.   7:24 Therefore whosoever * * heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:   7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way *, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Hi 94,
Matt 25
“31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee ? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee ?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have DONE it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have DONE it unto me.”

WORKS

These are not those who came to the Father through Christ.

The merciful here find mercy through their WORKS DONE to Christ.
We should rather come to Christ and not HOPE for this mercy in the second resurrection general judgement. We should not have to face this judgement being priests and kings who have already passed from death to life. We should now know we are saved and by the Spirit given as downpayment.

We should have reigned with Christ for 1000 years even before this event.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Not3in1 @ May 29 2007,10:38)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 29 2007,07:52) Quote (Not3in1 @ May 29 2007,06:33) Nick, thanks for pointing out that other versions can either justify our claims or they can shut them down.  We see what we want to see, sometimes.  We see what we pray is there…..  I am guilty of this as well.  We all have various glasses that we put on from time to time.  Each version, it seems, has it's own unique set of translators on board.  How else could some scriptures be seen as Jesus is God and others say no such thing? not3 What scriptures that says Jesus is God and others say no such thing? Could you give me an example? This is not an exhaustive list, of course; my library is only so big.   John 1:1 The following say Jesus is God: KJV, RV, NEB, TEV, NIV The following say Jesus is not God: Goodspeed, NWT John 1:18 Jesus is God: NEBmg, TEV, NIV, NASB Jesus is not God: KJV, RV, RSV, NEB, Moffatt, Goodspeed, TEVmg, NIVmg, MLB, NWT Acts 20:28 Jesus is God: KJV, Goodspeed, NIV, MLB, NASB Jesus is not God: RV, RSV, NEB, Moffatt, TEV, NWT Romans 9:5 Jesus is God: KJV, NIV, MLB Jesus is not God: RV, RSV, NEB, Moffatt, Goodspeed, TEV, NWT, NASB 2 Thess. 1:12 Jesus is God: NIVmg Jesus is not God: All others Titus 2:13 Jesus is God: RV, RSV, NEB, Goodspeed, TEV, NIV, MLB, NASB Jesus is not God: KJV, RVmg, RSVmg, NEBmg, Moffatt, NWT Heb. 1:8 Jesus is God: KJV, RV, RSV, NEB, TEV, NIV, MLB, NASB Jesus is not God: RSVmg, NEBmg, Moffatt, Goodspeed, NWT 2 Peter 1:1 Jesus is God: RV, RSV, NEB, Moffatt, Goodspeed, NIV, MLB, NASB Jesus is not God: KJV, RVmg, NWT Mg = margin For me, there is enough proof here to doubt these “proof” texts.  If these translator's cannot agree…….

not3

Nice try!

But none of the versions you mention says “Jesus is not God”.

The translators may have differed in the translating of the versus you mentioned, but in fact many of them while they didnt translate Jesus as God in one verse did in another.

Not to mention that some of the translations that you mention have serious credibility problems.

John 1:1 for instance.

Goodspeed not credible.
http://www.bible-researcher.com/goodspeed.html

NWT JWS translation. Not credible. No qualified Hebrew or Greek scholars!

The TEV (Good news bible) for instance is rejected by most conservative scholars and evangelist for good reasons.
The Good News Bible was primarilly used by JWS until they wrote the corrupted NWT.

http://www.bible-researcher.com/tev.html

The NEB and Moffat's MLB is rejected and questionable!

http://www.bible-researcher.com/neb.html

http://www.bible-researcher.com/moffatt.html

One thing is for sure, John 1:1 and John 20:28 is accepted as Jesus being God in all of the major translations. Even the NWT says he was a god!

So not3 since there is no version that says “Jesus is not God”, yet there are numerous versions that says he is, why would you side with the “he is not God side”?

[942767]

Hi WJ:

As I said to you when I have a question about scripture I go to God in prayer and ask Him for understanding.  He has spoken to me in times past in and audible voice, and I find that he speaks pretty good English.  Also, he has spoken to me through prophets when he needed to correct me.

And as part of my morning prayer routine, I ask God every day to correct me if I am teaching any thing that is not his word or doing any thing that is not his will, and having had the experience that I have mentioned above.  I know that He will correct me if I am wrong.

And I respect the work that the 600 sholars have done in giving us multiple English translations of the bible.  But they make mistakes, and God doesn't make mistakes.  He knows what he intended by the scripture that I question.  And if scholars say that Jesus pre-existed as a sentient person before he was born of the Virgin Mary, and if they say that there is such a thing as the “trinity”, they have made a mistake.

There may have been visions of the Lord Jesus in the Old Testament but that is what they were they were visions of things to come.  There are also many prophetic scriptures about the coming of Jesus, but they are prophetic because He was not at that time a reality.

And so, the scripture tells us that he was conceived of the Holy Ghost, and that he was born an infant.  He came from heaven here in that he was conceived of the Holy Ghost, and so he was with the Father here in what way?  He was in bodily form and entered the womb? No, the scripture states that he was conceived of the Holy Ghost.

And so, please show me how he was pre-existent.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (942767 @ May 30 2007,11:54)

Hi WJ: As I said to you when I have a question about scripture I go to God in prayer and ask Him for understanding.  He has spoken to me in times past in and audible voice, and I find that he speaks pretty good English.  Also, he has spoken to me through prophets when he needed to correct me. And as part of my morning prayer routine, I ask God every day to correct me if I am teaching any thing that is not his word or doing any thing that is not his will, and having had the experience that I have mentioned above.  I know that He will correct me if I am wrong. And I respect the work that the 600 sholars have done in giving us multiple English translations of the bible.  But they make mistakes, and God doesn't make mistakes.  He knows what he intended by the scripture that I question.  And if scholars say that Jesus pre-existed as a sentient person before he was born of the Virgin Mary, and if they say that there is such a thing as the “trinity”, they have made a mistake. There may have been visions of the Lord Jesus in the Old Testament but that is what they were they were visions of things to come.  There are also many prophetic scriptures about the coming of Jesus, but they are prophetic because He was not at that time a reality. And so, the scripture tells us that he was conceived of the Holy Ghost, and that he was born an infant.  He came from heaven here in that he was conceived of the Holy Ghost, and so he was with the Father here in what way?  He was in bodily form and entered the womb? No, the scripture states that he was conceived of the Holy Ghost. And so, please show me how he was pre-existent.

94

You say…

Quote

And so, please show me how he was pre-existent.

There is nothing more I can say. I have shown you what is written. You have made up your mind that God has given you “New, Exclusive” revelation in contrast to what is written.

Yow live in dangerous territory 94. If something is revealed to you outside or against scripture then it is not from God.

The mistake is not made by the translators but by a lying spirit that speaks to those who appose what is written.

2 Tim 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God*, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2 Peter 2:
19 We have also a *more sure word of prophecy*; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20 Knowing this first, that *no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation*.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time *by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost*.

When you say God has spoken to you in contrast to what is written, I say God does no such thing!

There is more evidence 94 to show his pre-existence than not.

Blessings

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Not3in1 @ May 30 2007,09:59)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 30 2007,08:32) Quote (Not3in1 @ May 30 2007,07:46) Also since no man had seen God at any time and Jesus was also man and had seen God, then the question would be when did he see God? ************************************************************* WJ, the verse doesn't say that Jesus saw God, it says “…..he hath declared him.”  Jesus made God known.  Because no one had seen the Father – Jesus made him known.  Anyway, that's my take. not3 Then what does this scripure mean to you… Jn 6:46 *Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father*.     Hi WJ, my point was that Jesus didn't see God before he was born.  Of course he saw the Father after he existed.

not3

Jn 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

1 Jn 4:12
No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us

Jn 6:46
*Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father*.

Do you believe scriptures contradict?

How could Jesus have seen the Father if he was just a mere man?

And how could he have seen the Father unless it was before he was found in fashion as a man? Phil 2

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 30 2007,12:13)

Quote (942767 @ May 30 2007,11:54) Hi WJ: As I said to you when I have a question about scripture I go to God in prayer and ask Him for understanding.  He has spoken to me in times past in and audible voice, and I find that he speaks pretty good English.  Also, he has spoken to me through prophets when he needed to correct me. And as part of my morning prayer routine, I ask God every day to correct me if I am teaching any thing that is not his word or doing any thing that is not his will, and having had the experience that I have mentioned above.  I know that He will correct me if I am wrong. And I respect the work that the 600 sholars have done in giving us multiple English translations of the bible.  But they make mistakes, and God doesn't make mistakes.  He knows what he intended by the scripture that I question.  And if scholars say that Jesus pre-existed as a sentient person before he was born of the Virgin Mary, and if they say that there is such a thing as the “trinity”, they have made a mistake. There may have been visions of the Lord Jesus in the Old Testament but that is what they were they were visions of things to come.  There are also many prophetic scriptures about the coming of Jesus, but they are prophetic because He was not at that time a reality. And so, the scripture tells us that he was conceived of the Holy Ghost, and that he was born an infant.  He came from heaven here in that he was conceived of the Holy Ghost, and so he was with the Father here in what way?  He was in bodily form and entered the womb? No, the scripture states that he was conceived of the Holy Ghost. And so, please show me how he was pre-existent. 94 You say… Quote And so, please show me how he was pre-existent. There is nothing more I can say. I have shown you what is written. You have made up your mind that God has given you “New, Exclusive” revelation in contrast to what is written. Yow live in dangerous territory 94. If something is revealed to you outside or against scripture then it is not from God. The mistake is not made by the translators but by a lying spirit that speaks to those who appose what is written. 2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God*, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2 Peter 2: 19 We have also a *more sure word of prophecy*; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 Knowing this first, that *no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation*. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time *by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost*. When you say God has spoken to you in contrast to what is written, I say God does no such thing! There is more evidence 94 to show his pre-existence than not. Blessings

94

I reiterate.

There is “No evidence” thats says Jesus did not exist before Abraham and the creation.

[Author]

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