JOHN 1:1 who is the WORD?

Participant

There is only one way to see Jesus and that is as the only [conceived and born] Son of God.

Jesus was “promised” this is true. God promised Abrahma that his offspring (seed/conceived children) would be as many as the sands. Jesus is the promised child of God.

Was Jesus only God's Son *after* the resurrection?

May 27, 2007 at 10:47 pm#53332

Participant

Hi not3,
Rom 1 says “was proven to be” so it is a confirmation of prophecy. He is the one not allowed to rot prophesisied by David and confirmed to be the HOLY ONE.

Acts 2
25For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:

26Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:

27Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

28Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.

29Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

32This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

33Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

34For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

35Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

May 28, 2007 at 6:13 am#53800

Participant

Quote (942767 @ May 28 2007,03:22)

Hi WJ:

Quote

So it was both the eating of his flesh and the drinking of his blood and his claiming to come
down from heaven that offended them and was hard for them to recieve!

I agree with you about this it was the whole deal about first him coming down from heaven and the also about eating his flesh and blood. And so, we are in agreement on this point.

But let me just ask you the following questions. Did the body of Jesus exist before before he was born of the Virgin Mary? And if we are saying “the body of Jesus”. Who then is Jesus?

Let's resolve this first and then if you have other points that I haven't addressed restate them and I will address them.

God Bless

No I don’t think we agree. Are you saying that Jesus meant we eat physically of his flesh and drink his blood?

While physically Jesus Body and blood was the atonement for our sins, when Jesus ate the last supper with them the wine and the bread was a type of his broken body and his shed blood which he said this do in remembrance of me.

The Bread from heaven is a “spiritual” bread, which are the words that he “The Word” spoke.

Jn 6:35
And Jesus said unto them, *I am the bread of life*: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Jesus said he is the bread and coming to him would mean you never hunger!

How?

Jn 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; *the flesh profiteth nothing*: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

He is trying to tell them he is not literally speaking of his body and blood, but his “words of life”, for they are Spirit and life.

Peter got it, “thou hast the words of eternal life”.

This is not about his physical Body. So his natural birth is not even pertinent to Jesus coming down from heaven or returning back to where he was.

In this whole incident Jesus is trying to raise their sights to see that *he came from heaven*, and that he had the “Words of Eternal life”, because he is the Eternal life that was with the Father. 1 Jn 1:1,2.

Jesus the Word was Spirit before he took on the likeness of sinful flesh.

He is the “Word, the Spirit and the Life! Jn 1:1, Rev 19:13, Jn 7:37, 2 Cor 3:17. Jn 14:6.

So I reiterate…

1 Cor 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.

Notice the brackets for “was made”. Added by the translators.

Look at this verse in its context and a better rendering of the verse would be…

1 Cor 15: YLT
45 so also it hath been written, `The first man Adam became a living creature,' the *last Adam is for a life-giving spirit*,
46 but that which is spiritual is not first, but that which was natural, afterwards that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is out of the earth, earthy; *the second man is the Lord out of heaven*;

Jesus is and was the Eternal life that was with the Father, 1 Jn 1:1,2, and he is the Lord from heaven!

94! Based on my previous post, do you believe the translators or the Apostle John with over 40 pronouns ascribed to Jesus in Jn 1, did not believe in the pre-existent of Christ?

And by what basis would you change the translations to reflect such?

Also based on Col 1:16, and 17 and the above I Cor 15:45-47, do you believe the Apostle Paul believed Jesus was just a thought or plan before he took on the likeness of sinful flesh?

Blessings

May 28, 2007 at 6:22 am#53802

Participant

You say…

Quote

But let me just ask you the following questions. Did the body of Jesus exist before before he was born of the Virgin Mary? And if we are saying “the body of Jesus”. Who then is Jesus?

There are many Hebrew scriptures that show Christ appeared to many before he came in the flesh.

Dan 3:25 just one example…

He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

I encourage you to listen to some of these messages with open heart!

Blessings

May 28, 2007 at 6:43 am#53805

Participant

Hi W,
KJV has stepped off the path here if you check the other versions-look at Young's Literal drawn from the same manuscripts!
YLT
25He answered and hath said, `Lo, I am seeing four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the appearance of the fourth [is] like to a son of the gods.'

nasb
25He answered and hath said, `Lo, I am seeing four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the appearance of the fourth [is] like to a son of the gods.'

niv
25He answered and hath said, `Lo, I am seeing four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the appearance of the fourth [is] like to a son of the gods.'

esv
25He answered and hath said, `Lo, I am seeing four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the appearance of the fourth [is] like to a son of the gods.'

May 28, 2007 at 6:21 pm#53816

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 28 2007,18:22)

I encourage you to listen to some of these messages with open heart!

WJ, I visited this site and have a question:
It says that there were many who “saw” the LORD, but who did they really see? The site says that they didn't really see God because you cannot see God. So they say it was Jesus……..

Was it Jesus that Adam and Eve saw and spoke with in the garden?

May 28, 2007 at 6:24 pm#53817

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 28 2007,18:43)

nasb
25He answered and hath said, `Lo, I am seeing four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the appearance of the fourth [is] like to a son of the gods.'

niv
25He answered and hath said, `Lo, I am seeing four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the appearance of the fourth [is] like to a son of the gods.'

esv
25He answered and hath said, `Lo, I am seeing four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the appearance of the fourth [is] like to a son of the gods.'

No you have walked off the path!

So who do you think the fourth was?

May 28, 2007 at 6:29 pm#53819

Participant

Hi W,
Are we allowed to “think” things and that is good enough evidence we have found truth?
You should rather abide in scripture.
that is the prescribed path.

May 28, 2007 at 6:32 pm#53820

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ May 29 2007,06:21)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 28 2007,18:22)

I encourage you to listen to some of these messages with open heart!

Was it Jesus that Adam and Eve saw and spoke with in the garden?

not3

The same one who created them!

Gen 1:
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
26 And God said, *Let us* make man in *our image, after our likeness*:…
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Man is him and yet man is them.

God is him and yet God is us!

May 28, 2007 at 6:33 pm#53821

Participant

Nick, thanks for pointing out that other versions can either justify our claims or they can shut them down. We see what we want to see, sometimes. We see what we pray is there….. I am guilty of this as well. We all have various glasses that we put on from time to time. Each version, it seems, has it's own unique set of translators on board. How else could some scriptures be seen as Jesus is God and others say no such thing?

May 28, 2007 at 6:34 pm#53822

Participant

WJ, so they saw Jesus?

May 28, 2007 at 6:42 pm#53824

Participant

Hi not3,
If you look at Jn 12.41 in the NIV you will see Jesus written there. It is in no manuscripts and is a wrong addition since it is God Who is spoken of. NIV also does the same in Rev 11 saying the two witnesses are men without any manuscript basis.
KJV is also trinity theory slanted at times as in the verse W has shown and phil 2.
NASB sometimes chooses an unusual manuscript wording as with Jn 1.18 “only begotten God”
We surely need the torch as well as the map.

Bias and political pressure affects translators too.

May 28, 2007 at 6:42 pm#53825

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ May 29 2007,06:34)

WJ, so they saw Jesus?

not3

I dont know of a scripture that says they “Saw” God!

I know it says they talked to God! They Heard him walking!

May 28, 2007 at 6:45 pm#53826

Participant

Hi,
From W's reference site
' The most fundamental, basic fact about Jesus is that He is Almighty Creator God. Jesus says in John 17:3 that eternal life is knowing God the Father and Jesus Christ. Therefore, we cannot expect eternal life if we do not know God and the first step in knowing God is to recognize the basic facts about who He is. If I were to tell you that I knew my wife, and then said to you that she's the 300 lb woman that works at Fazoli's, you should immediately question me because she is a thin stay-at-home mom.
I cannot claim to know someone if I fail to recognize the most basic facts about that person.

Most Christians recognize that Jesus is God…but may not realize that He is also the revealed God of the Old Testament. We know that Jesus is “the Word” [John 1:1], and that no one has ever seen the Father [John 6:46, 1:18]. Since Jesus is the image of the invisible God [Colossians 1:15], then if anyone at anytime has seen God, then we should expect that they saw the image of the invisible God, the Word, Jesus.'

Such is the quality we should expect from teachers of the Word??

May 28, 2007 at 6:51 pm#53828

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2007,06:42)

Bias and political pressure affects translators too.

What do you mean it was in none of the manuscripts?

Prove it!

Jn 12:14

KJV
These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

NLT
Isaiah was referring to Jesus when he made this prediction,
because he was given a vision of the Messiah's glory.

NIV
Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him.

ESV
Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and spoke of him.

NASB
Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and spoke of him.

RSV
Isaiah said this because he saw his glory and spoke of him.

ASV
These things said Isaiah, because he saw his glory; and he spake of him.

YLT
these things said Isaiah, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

Darbys
These things said Esaias because he saw his glory and spoke of him.

Websters
These things said Isaiah, when he saw his glory, and spoke of him.

HNV
Yesha`yahu said these things when he saw his glory, and spoke of him.

Have you got the white out in use again NH?

May 28, 2007 at 6:54 pm#53829

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2007,06:45)

Such is the quality we should expect from teachers of the Word??

Your teachings go outside of the scriptures more than theirs.

Should I mention all of your “Inferences” again.

May 28, 2007 at 6:54 pm#53830

Participant

Hi,
From W's reference site.
“Who did they see? It was not God the Father [John 1:18; 6:46], so it must be the visual image of the GodHead, Jesus.”

Is Christ the image of God or God?
Is he the visible part of the so called “trinity God” or an image?
Why is “must be” -human logic- taken as any sort of evidence of truth about God?

May 28, 2007 at 7:00 pm#53831

Participant

Hi W,
You say
“Your teachings go outside of the scriptures more than theirs.”
So you do admit these teachings go outside of scripture?
Then why do you continue to promote what is false?
Do you not fear our awesomely powerful God?

May 28, 2007 at 7:01 pm#53832

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 29 2007,06:32)

Quote (Not3in1 @ May 29 2007,06:21)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 28 2007,18:22)

I encourage you to listen to some of these messages with open heart!

Was it Jesus that Adam and Eve saw and spoke with in the garden?

not3

The same one who created them!

Man is him and yet man is them.

God is him and yet God is us!

Hi W,
Do we have to read between the lines again to find these 'truths”

May 28, 2007 at 7:07 pm#53833