JOHN 1:1 who is the WORD?

[NickHassan]

Hi Jammin,
You do not offer sacred messages but misused scriptures and abuse.
Your position is most insecure..

[jammin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 11 2012,13:46)

Quote (jammin @ Mar. 10 2012,19:22) Colossians 1:15 NLT 15 Christ is the visible image of the invisible God.     He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation I would think the One that Jesus calls “my God” would be supreme over His own creation.   Your source says the word “prototokos” can mean “firstborn” literally or figuratively.  What makes you think it is figurative in Col 1:15? Is there any scriptural reason that it can't mean Jesus was the first thing God ever created?

Job 18:13

21st Century King James Version (KJ21)

13It shall devour the strength of his skin; even the firstborn of death shall devour his strength.

is that literal mike?

[jammin]

nick,

i do not accpt stories, imagination and illusion.

study hard.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (jammin @ Mar. 11 2012,06:16)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 11 2012,13:46) Quote (jammin @ Mar. 10 2012,19:22) Colossians 1:15 NLT 15 Christ is the visible image of the invisible God.     He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation I would think the One that Jesus calls “my God” would be supreme over His own creation.   Your source says the word “prototokos” can mean “firstborn” literally or figuratively.  What makes you think it is figurative in Col 1:15? Is there any scriptural reason that it can't mean Jesus was the first thing God ever created? Job 18:13 21st Century King James Version (KJ21) 13It shall devour the strength of his skin; even the firstborn of death shall devour his strength. is that literal mike?

No,

I don't think that one is literal.  But what scripture tells you Col 1:15 is figurative?

The “Jesus is God” people do the same thing with the word “begotten”.  Just because the word is sometimes used metaphorically in scripture, they insist that it is metaphorical in the case of Jesus' begetting.  Why?

Just because I can say, “jammin's post GAVE BIRTH to an idea for me” doesn't mean I'm still speaking metaphorically when I say, “my wife GAVE BIRTH to my son”.

So yes, I agree that many words are used both literally and figuratively in scripture.  The question remains:

What SCRIPTURE tells you that the word “prototokos” is used figuratively in Col 1:15?

It seems to me that the word should be considered as literal UNLESS there is clear and present evidence to the contrary. Is there?

[jammin]

so you agree that job 18.13 is not literal

now read col 1.15-16
the answer is in verse 16

Colossians 1:15-16

21st Century King James Version (KJ21)

15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.

16For by Him were all things created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones or dominions or principalities or powers: all things were created by Him and for Him.

paul did not say in verse 16 that he is created.
in verse 15 paul said that Christ is the firstborn of all creation. the reason can be found in verse 16.
he is not saying in verse 16 that Christ is a creation.
paul said in verse 16 that
Because all things were created by him:
both in the heavens and on the earth,
the things that are visible and the things that are invisible.
Whether they are thrones or powers,
or rulers or authorities,

that is the reason why he said in verse 15 that Christ is the firstborn of all creation

it is very clear that paul is referring to the supremacy of Christ over all creation. that is the true meaning of the verse.

Colossians 1:15

New Living Translation (NLT)
Christ Is Supreme
15 Christ is the visible image of the invisible God.
He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation

[mikeboll64]

Quote (jammin @ Mar. 11 2012,08:53)

paul said in verse 16 that Because all things were created by him:      both in the heavens and on the earth,      the things that are visible and the things that are invisible.         Whether they are thrones or powers,         or rulers or authorities, that is the reason why he said in verse 15 that Christ is the firstborn of all creation

Yes jammin,

Jesus had no choice but the be the first creation of God, because all things were then created by his God through him.

[jammin]

you cant read your term ''FIRST CREATION OF GOD''

you cant read that in col 1.15
that is just your opinion

paul said firstborn of all creation and NOT FIRST CREATION OF GOD.
there is a big difference between the two.

paul said firstborn of all creation and the reason can be found in verse 16

read it carefully. study hard

[mikeboll64]

I have read it carefully. I have studied it hard. Most likely much harder than you ever will.

jammin, do you know of any son in the existence of the world that wasn't brought into existence by his father? If not, then why would you think Jesus is called the Son of God if God didn't in fact bring him forth into existence?

Jesus tells us in Rev 3 that he is the beginning of the creation of God. He is the beginning of SOMEONE ELSE'S creation, jammin.

For one to be the firstborn OF any particular group, he must also be a part OF that group. The firstborn of the flock is a member of the flock. The firstborn of the herd is a member of the herd. The firstborn of the Egyptians are all members of the group called “Egyptians”. The firstborn of the human race is a member of the group called “human beings”. The firstborn of the kings of the earth is a member of the group called “the kings of the earth”.

So why would you think this logic would cease in Col 1:15? Why wouldn't you also accept that if Jesus is the firstborn of creation, he must be a member of the group called “creation”?

[jammin]

do not explain mike. i do not need stories.
you said job 18.13 is not literal.
but in col 1.15, you want the verse to be literal. paul is not saying in verse 16 that christ is created. it is just your opinion

now read your imagination in col 1.15
you said “First creation of GOD”

where can i read that in col 1.15??

you may ask for help

study hard mike.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (jammin @ Mar. 11 2012,09:20)

do not explain mike. i do not need stories. you said job 18.13 is not literal. but in col 1.15, you want the verse to be literal.

No, what I said was that I don't THINK the word “firstborn” is literal in Job 18:13.

And what I asked from you is a scripture that would tell you that word is figurative in Col 1:15.  Do you have such a scripture?

Lightenup had a brilliant theory once – one with which I agree.  She said that “firstborn” ALWAYS has the default meaning of “the one born first”……………..UNLESS……………there is clear and present evidence to the contrary.

Now, in Job 18, there is not clear evidence to the contrary, but it is hard for us to think of death itself as a father with literal children, and so most of us assume it is metaphorical or poetic in that verse.

But in the case of Jesus, he truly IS God's firstborn Son.  So where is the “clear and present evidence” that tells you “firstborn” in Col 1:15 is only figurative?

If there is no such evidence, then we must accept “prototokos pasa ktisis” for what it truly means – “the one born first of all creation”.

[jammin]

if you dont think that it is literal in job 18.13 therefore it is not literal

do not explain mike. i do not need stories.

in col 1.15, you want the verse to be literal. paul is not saying in verse 16 that christ is created. it is just your opinion

now read your imagination in col 1.15
you said “First creation of GOD”

where can i read that in col 1.15??

you may ask for help

study hard mike.

[mikeboll64]

[jammin]

do not smile mike.
answer my question
ill repeat

in col 1.15, you want the verse to be literal. paul is not saying in verse 16 that christ is created. it is just your opinion

now read your imagination in col 1.15
you said “First creation of GOD”

where can i read that in col 1.15??

you may ask for help

[mikeboll64]

Quote (jammin @ Mar. 11 2012,10:49)

answer my question ill repeat in col 1.15, you want the verse to be literal.

No jammin,

YOU answer MY question that I asked two pages ago:

What SCRIPTURE tells you that “firstborn” is figurative in Col 1:15?

Jesus IS LITERALLY the firstborn Son of God. The sons of God are the first of God's creation, because they all shouted for joy when God stretched out the heavens and created the earth.

So tell me what SCRIPTURE tells you that the LITERAL firstborn of the sons of God is not the LITERAL firstborn of every creature.

So answer MY question, jammin. In fact, address ANYONE'S points once in a while. Serious students of scripture keep showing you many scriptural things, and you reply like a little kid who doesn't even WANT to learn.

Answer MY question for once. Your answer must include a SCRIPTURE, because I'm asking you which SCRIPTURE tells you that firstborn is figurative in Col 1:15.

[jammin]

the answer is in verse 16.
16 Through his power all things were made—things in heaven and on earth, things seen and unseen, all powers, authorities, lords, and rulers. All things were made through Christ and for Christ.

it refers to the supremacy of Christ.

Colossians 1:15

(NCV)

15 No one can see God, but Jesus Christ is exactly like him. He ranks higher than everything that has been made.

now answer me
answer my question
ill repeat

in col 1.15, you want the verse to be literal. paul is not saying in verse 16 that christ is created. it is just your opinion

now read your imagination in col 1.15
you said “First creation of GOD”

where can i read that in col 1.15??

you may ask for help

[mikeboll64]

Quote (jammin @ Mar. 11 2012,11:12)

16 Through his power all things were made—things in heaven and on earth, things seen and unseen, all powers, authorities, lords, and rulers. All things were made through Christ and for Christ.

That's not an answer to my question. That is confirmation of my understanding. In order for all things in heaven and on earth to have been created THROUGH Jesus, then he had to have been the FIRST one created.

The others can't be created THROUGH him unless he was created first.

Btw, the term “pasa ktisis” can be translated as “all creation” or “every creature”.

Does it help you to understand if you read it as “the firstborn of every creature”?

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
You speak of the WORD.
Jesus was born in Bethlehem.

[mikeboll64]

Yes Nick,

The Word became flesh in Bethlehem, where Jesus was born Christ, Savior, Lord, and King of the Jews.

[Lightenup]

Nick,
The Jews were very familiar with the term 'The Word of the Lord.' They replaced the name 'YHVH' for 'The Word of the Lord' in the Targums when the scriptures spoke of God' appearing to them or speaking to them. This article shows many examples and I have just pasted a few:

http://oneinmessiah.net/TargumMemraTheWordOfGod.htm
THE MEMRA, THE WORD OF THE LORD

Psalm 33 [6] By the Word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.

The Aramaic word 'Memra', which means the �Word� or �The Word of the Lord�, is used when physical manifestations of God appear or when God is mentioned more than once in the same verse.

——————

The Jerusalem Targum of Johathan ben Uziel renders Bereshit 1:27 as follows: “

Gen. 1 [27] So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

And the Word [Memra] of the Lord created man in His likeness, in the likeness of the Lord, the Lord created, male and female created He them.”

——————-

The Memra acts as a mediator between the Father and Creation:

And I will establish my covenant between My Word [Memra} and between you

Targum Onkelos Gen. 17:7

Gen. 17 [7] And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

——————–

Gen. 9 [17] And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth.

And YHVH said to Noah, “This is the token of the covenant which I have established between My Word [Memra] and between all flesh that is upon the earth.

Targum Onkelos Gen. 9:17
———————

The Memra is God and is worshiped as such:

Gen. 28: [20] And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on, [21] So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the LORD be my God:

And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, “If the Word [Memra] of YHVH will be my support, and will keep me in the way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on, so that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the Word [Memra] of Lord be my God.

Targum Onkelos on Gen. 28:20-21

[kerwin]

To all,

Isaiah 55:11

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

11 So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth;
It will not return to Me empty,
Without accomplishing what I desire,
And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.

Psalm 33:6

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

6 By the word of the LORD the heavens were made,
And by the breath of His mouth all their host.

Psalm 147:15

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

15 He sends forth His command to the earth;
His word runs very swiftly. Psalm 147:15

Here is the source that directed me to these Scriptures.

[Author]

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