JOHN 1:1 who is the WORD?

[Wispring]

Hi Gene,
  OK. To simplify lets first just look at them as 2 Greek words. Logos among other things means an idea or concept. Reema are just the words used to transmit the concept. OK. An example:
  Today I had lunch. The word Today transmits the concept of the time of the event
                                     The word I transmits to whom the event occured and who is transmittting.
                                      The word had transmits it is an event that occured before the now moment.
                                      The word lunch transmits what was had (i.e. an eating event)

  Suppose for conversational purposes you want to explore this reema(lunch) more. You therefore make lunch a Logos(concept) to be explored. You ask.

   What did you have for lunch?

   I say “I had a sandwich and a glass of water” I used words/reema to communicate more fully the Logos of lunch.

  I have always been good with linquistics. This life experience is what gives me the ability to mentally comprehend concepts and to apply them rationally.Of course, I thank God for this life experience. I hope this post has simplified things well enough.

                                              With Love and Respect,
                                                      Wispring

[Wispring]

First understand the words in a secular non-spiritual way!

[GeneBalthrop]

Wispering……..What you are saying i believe, is the Logos is the concept and Reema is the word that describe that concept. So the Concept is the Intellect (produced by Spirit) in our minds, the LOGOS, and Reema is the words we used to describe it right?

peace and love to you and yours…………………………………gene

[Wispring]

Hi Gene,

The concept is the logos. The concept “Intellect is produced by Spirit in our mind” is a logos. Intellect is a concept/logos requiring reema to define it. Produced is a concept/logos requiring reema to define. Spirit is a concept/logos requiring reema to define it. Mind is a concept requiring reema to define. Paladin is stating that the word Word in John 1:1 is a logos that has a definition of the “activity of Christ living in you” and he then proceeds to show this definition true via scriptural reference and analysis. Exegeting is what this process is called. The word logos is just that. A word. It is a word the denotes a concept, deed, idea, so forth. If you are equating “Intellect (produced by Spirit) in our minds” with “activity of Christ living in you” then logically you would be in agreement with Paladin's reasoning. Right now I am thinking that you are on the living edge of understanding the words Logos and Reema and how Paladin is using them in his presentation.
  Here is Paladin saying so clearly:

Quote

“Christ” is not “the logos of God.” “The logos of God” is an activity of Christ living in you.

                                                         With Love and Respect,
                                                                    Wispring

[GeneBalthrop]

Wispering …….. So what you wrote above does agree with my prior post right because that is exactly what i said. That is the way i have always seen it, i do believe the Logos is the spirit of God that was living (IN) Jesus and can be in us also, it is the common denominator . Spirit (IS) Logos and a word is defined as Intelligent Utterance , the utterance or vocalizing of the Spirit. Remember Jesus said the WORDS he spoke to us are spirit and life that i believe, a Word is simply an expression of Spirit and Spirit is INTELLECT and when it is spoken it becomes a WORD. So Reema is just the (expression) of Spirit is the way it appears Right?

peace and love…………………………………..gene

[Wispring]

Hi Gene,
  almost there!. OK. Now think of God before Genesis. He has an infinitude of Logos and reema in his spiritual mind just waiting to be expressed. The first thing he said was “Let there be light”. Point being a Logos is of the Spirit. Created by the spirit. Certainly when God expresses a Logos or reema it is spiritual. The Logos and reema are imbued and infused with spirit. They are not spirit itself. They are a product of spirit. Even when you and I express Logos and reema they are a product of spirit.

                                                        With Love and Repect,
                                                                Wispring

[Wispring]

hmmm…simple…ok
                           let x = God
                           let y = Logos
                           let z = reema
                           let a = humanity(mankind)
                           let b = one man/human(male or female)
                           let the number of God   = 1(as in one and only)
                           let the number of Logos = infinity(numberless)
                           let the number of reema = infinity(numberless)

  A person can have Logos and reema that are secular things like business contracts, theatrical plays, Music, every day talk about things(i.e. family, freinds, weather, etc.)

  A person can have Logos an reema about ecclisiastical(relating to the Christian Church/spiritual) things.

  God can have Logos and reema about all things a person can and more because God is all-powerful and all-knowing.

  This is about as simple and formulatic as I can get Gene.

[GeneBalthrop]

Wispring ……..i basically see it that way also. with possible one exception, I believe the GOD is SPIRIT or LOGOS that they are on and the same thing. Remember Jesus said that “they Father was IN him” i know this could be the LOGOS and i do agree with that but i also believe the LOGOS was the GOD that created everything and is Present in all creation. I think i see it as GOD is His WORD which is Spirit (intellect) that works in and through all creation. “THAT GOD MAY BE IN ALL AND THROUGH ALL

Remember when Jesus said this, “Destroy this temple and in three days I shall raise it up. I believe that was GOD first person speaking through Jesus' mouth,  I still think the Spirit of GOD and GOD are one and the same thing brother. Just as our words and us are one and the same thing. GOD is embodied in  His Words or LOGOS> I believe the Logos is the very person of GOD the Father present in a person. Jesus acted as if GOD was alway present with Him as a Being existing (IN) him. IMO

peace and love to you and yours brother…………………………………………gene[/B]

[Wispring]

Hi Gene,

hmmm… You keep on saying spirit is intellect and this is a foundation of your spiritual understanding of things spiritual. Is that right? That spirit=intellect is a logos of your spiritual understanding? Are you using the word intellect from cognitive science or from a philosophy or somewhere else.
  Here is a link to it's use in cognitive science: use of word intellect in cognitive science

  Here is a link to it's use in philosophies:philosophical use of the word intellect

With Love and Respect,
Wispring

[GeneBalthrop]

Wispring………….I describe Spirit as the cognitive ability which is intellect to me. For instance the Spirit of Truth is the cognitive ability or power to understand truth when you hear it. Remember when Jesus told his disciples not to leave Jerusalem until they recieved power from on high. This “power” gives enlightment or cognition into the mind of a person enabling them to percieve the truth. A person who has it can not be decieved, remember where it says ” he would deceive the very elect if it were possible' . The elect who have recieved this cognition or ability can not be decieved another words their intellect has been enlightens to the point by the Spirit of God to recognize the truth when they hear it. Inversely they also know a Lie or something that is not true also when they hear it. That is why Jesus told the Pharisees they did not comprehend what he was saying because they were not of GOD. Paul tells us whosoever does not have the Spirit simply are not of GOD. It is this Spirit that bears withness with our Spirit that we

“BRETHREN you have no need of a teacher for the Spirit will teach you all things”. It is this elevated intellect or Mind that guides the Saints of GOD. Any true Saint of God can pick up a bible and percieve the true meaning of what is being said in scriptures because of the Spirit of GOD (IN) them. are the Sons of the living GOD > IMO

peace and love to you and yours………………………………..gene

[Wispring]

Hi Gene,
Cognitive ability is inherent in all things that have intellect. Intellect is a thing of the Mind. God's mind is Spirit. God's Logos(concepts) or reema(words to describe events,people,places or Logos) are thing(s) produced by the intellect whether it be of God's mind or man's mind. There is a logical order to it. First, there is man's/God's Spirit. Second, there is God's/man's mind. Third, there is that which is intellect, the reasoning part of the mind. Fourth there are Logos and reema that are a result of intellect. While saying God's Spirit pervades in all things is a truth. It is vague. Equating Logos, Spirit, Intellect, Mind as all one thing via the spirit of oneness is true so that God may be all in all is also vague. Using terms such as Logos and Reema allow one to truthfully organize and to recognize text via the Spirit of Truth using a cognitively valid method. Does this make sense to you? Do you perceive any falsehood here?

With Love and Respect,
Wispring

[GeneBalthrop]

Wispring ………….No i don't think we are counteracting each other I just lump it together and you have broken it down seem to be what is going on. I see God , his Spirit, His Logos as one and the same thing that can indwell us just as it indwells Jesus. Were not that far apart brother. IMO

peace and love to you and yours……………………………………..gene

[Wispring]

Hi Gene,
I think you are right. Do you believe that your eternal salvation is dependent on serving God alone with the mind of Christ revealed to you by the Holy Spirit? Through developing an ongoing and deep personal relationship with both Christ Jesus and God? This is what my Lord Christ Jesus taught me.

With Love and Respect,
Wispring

[Tim Kraft]

Wispring & Gene: Wonderful, powerful, enlightning truth in these posts. I learned much. Thank you so much for the deep things of God. TK

[kerwin]

To all,

I am convinced the Spirit is not God and God is not the Spirit though the Spirit is to God as our spirit is to us.

Each is treated as a seperate element of the Unity of the Spirit and Scripture states that God lives in us through his Spirit.

It is my belief that Jesus' spirit is a reflection of God's spirit, otherwise known as God's glory and God puts Jesus' spirit in us by his own Spirit just as he did Moses' spirit is the books of law.  For this reason God dwells in Jesus and Jesus dwells in God through the Spirit of Christ and Jesus dwells in those that believe and so God dwells in those that believe through the spirit of Jesus.  

According to Philo of Alexander the Logos of God was God's instrument in the creation of the universe.  That sounds like the Spirit of God which is still God's instrument of creation.  

Scripture calls the Spirit the reema of God.   Both common Greek words were translated from the same Hebrew word in the Greek manuscripts of the Old Testiment.  This may indicate that they were considered interchangable or that they are different facets of the same concept.

[Wispring]

Hi Gene and anyone else interested in reading a well-written sermon on Logos and reema,

  I would like to state I am convinced that I am in harmony with the person who wrote this sermon understanding.
God's Human Words
  A truly wonderful piece of writing. One could even say inspired.

                                              With Love and Respect,
                                                    Wispring

[GeneBalthrop]

Wispering………..I tend to still think GOD and His Word are one and the same thing, while Reema can be a type of activity involved by the LOGOS, that does make sense, But i can see a problem with this also, that being that we can began to think Jesus is the Logos himself as the trinitarians and preexistences do. When i read Let Christ be in you , i do not see it as Jesus being (IN) Me but GOD the Father Being In Me just as He was (In) Jesus through His Word or Logos. I do believe the LOGOS is that active Force of GOD that can be in ALL things and work Through ALL Things. I see GOD the FATHER as Truly Being and Existing (IN) Jesus, and at times even speaking first person through Jesus' mouth. As in the case of “destroy this temple and in three days (I) God shall raise it up”. If Jesus was truly dead as He said He was then he could not have raised himself up from the dead state he was in. I think Thomas finely Got it Right when he said “MY LORD AND MY GOD. I believe he came to truly realize God the Father was truly (IN) Jesus' Body to, he was cohabiting the same Body Jesus had. GOD and HIS WORD or LOGOS are ONE and The SAME. Remember “know you not that your body (IS) the temple of the living GOD” Paul tells us. I do believe GOD the Father does Cohabit (IN) his creation. When it say Christ in you the Hope of Glory , i believe that CHRISTOS, IS THE ANOINTING SPIRIT OF GOD IN A PERSON not Jesus in them. IMO

peace and love to you and yours brother…………………………………………gene

[Wispring]

Hi Gene,

In the greek language logos is a word. In the greek language reema is a word. Any word in any language is a linguistic symbol of a concept. Concepts like a noun, pronoun, verb, adverb, adjective, determiner, and so forth. Words in any language have meanings. The word Logos means “something said (including the thought); by implication, a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension, a computation. KJV: account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say(-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.”
  The word reema means “an utterance (individually, collectively or specially),; by implication, a matter or topic (especially of narration, command or dispute”.
  Notice how the definition of Logos includes “the thought”,”also reasoning”,”subject of discourse”. The definition of reema has “especially of narration, command or dispute.”
  What grabs my attention with respect to these definitions is that one can use reema to describe a logos. One can't use logos to describe reema because a logos is that which is described. For instance:

Quote

1 Corinthians 2:4-5 (King James Version) 4And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: 5That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God

In this scripture the greek word logos is used for speech and words. Why not reema? Because Paul is expressing that his speech and preaching were not with philosophical ideas or reasoning of human wisdom, but, with the Spirit(of God) and of power(of God).
  Basically Gene, what I am trying to communicate to you is that logos and reema are not “spiritual words”. These words are applied spiritually in the bible when used in reference to spiritual things.
God could talk to you directly simply using reema like for instance “Gene, read words(reema) in the bible”. Nothing deep or spiritual there, just a command, right? Then God could talk to you and say “Gene I want you to understand the overall word(logos/meaning using reason) of the bible”. The Holy Spirit/Spirit of Truth is the activator/reminder for us disciples of Christ Jesus and worshipers of God that helps us die in Christ or take on the mind of Christ so that the mind Christ which was created by God directs our lives. Which is basically the same thing that you say in your posts. The difference you and I have is that you understand God and Logos as one in the same. Logically and linguistically they are not one and the same. Reema isn't a type of activity. Reema are simply words. Whether they are thought, sung, spoken, or written down in any language whatsoever. This is why I never think of Christ Jesus as the Logos itself. The Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, the mind of Christ are all spiritual truths within the Logos. God wants everyone to be LIKE Jesus Christ in their own individual way. God doesn't want clones or robots( You will just have to trust me on this thought since cloning nor robotics where in existence in the time the bible was written). You know that bumper sticker? What would Jesus do? That is like a teaching of having the mind of Christ.

                                                 With Love and Respect,
                                                           Wispring

[Wispring]

Hi Gene,
  I bet you have played “catch” with a ball at some time in your life! I am going to attempt to use playing “catch” as an anology for teaching Logos and reema. This could be interesting because I am doing this on the “fly” lol.
  Somewhere in a baseball field on a calm, warm spring day is a father and his son playing catch. The father says “Get ready son! I am going to throw an inside curve-ball!”
  The son having only a rudimentary knowledge of baseball says “Wait! What is an inside curve-ball?”
  The father responds “Oh yea! This is your first time playing catch and you don't know what I mean by inside curve-ball. Here, let me explain, “I will throw the ball in such a way that it will travel across the edge of the plate on the side where the batter is standing in a curving path and reach your glove in an area outside of the strike-zone.“
  The son then says “Thanks for the info dad, I get it now, let's play!”

  The boldened words are the logos.
  The italicized words are the reema.
That was fun!

With Love and Respect,
Wispring

[GeneBalthrop]

Wispring…………I do understand that, i know word explain what we are thinking, However to separate them is not necessarily right IMO, because words themselves (ARE) expression of our Thoughts and they are SPIRIT and life according to Jesus. they can not be separated from the individual, they can be transmitted from individual to individual, through existing knowledge. For instance lets take your Father son teaching thing , it would be impossible for the Father to teach the son anything if the son did not already have the intellect (Spirit) to percieve it in the first place, so what was the father doing them, he was arranging the already held (intellect) in the child to Aline with his thoughts (Spirit) so in this, Spirit is Passed to Spirit. Word are simply an expression of Spirits that we utter, but what is the force behind them it is SPIRIT, so Jesus could say ” the words i am telling you Spirit and life . So in John 1:1 “the Word was with GOD and the Word was GOD. The word do did not leave GOD it simply expanded to Jesus and thus GOD was TRULY (IN) HIM. GOD and His Word are one Just as you and your Word are ONE and the same thing. 'SO A MAN THINKS SO HE IS

I do know what you are saying though and do agree that word are means of communicating our thought which are derived from our Spirits (IN) us. I do agree with that brother. As i said before i really do not believe we are much apart on this Brother. IMO

peace and love to you and yours Wispring……………………………………..gene

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