- This topic has 25,905 replies, 115 voices, and was last updated 2 days, 3 hours ago by
.
- Posts
To All………the glory Jesus had with the Father was the Glory GOD the FATHER had planned for Him in the beginning of the creation of the world, and this Glory is also given to Us, it is what we had in the beginning of this earths creation also. GOD'S Plan is to bring (Many) Sons unto Glory. Those who believe in Preexistence of Christ as a demigod or super being before his berth here on earth, are as much false teachers as those who believe on the Triune GOD system. they are the same thing and are of the Apostate Churches. IMO
peace and love to you all………………..gene
Quote (Gene @ Dec. 17 2009,01:32) To All………the glory Jesus had with the Father was the Glory GOD the FATHER had planned for Him in the beginning of the creation of the world, and this Glory is also given to Us, it is what we had in the beginning of this earths creation also. GOD'S Plan is to bring (Many) Sons unto Glory. Those who believe in Preexistence of Christ as a demigod or super being before his berth here on earth, are as much false teachers as those who believe on the Triune GOD system. they are the same thing and are of the Apostate Churches. IMO peace and love to you all………………..gene
gene why do you interpret what “word” is.you have all the ohter scriptures that when used with that, talk about jesus as being with his father in heaven.
was jesus not the word of god when he spoke his good news.
if all the other scriptures did not specifically say that jesus was in heaven before all was created and that god through his son created all and that he was like a master craftsman after having done this, i would think a little more on your own theory of it. but the scriptures all point to jesus as being there.
Gene – are you saying that god was by himelf then?
you do know that the bible says there was also lucifer too before man. . thats why after man was made and god let them do as they please to in regards as taking care of the earth that he questioned god's authority in the garden of eden and that is why he lied and lead astray eve.
you should look at more than one verse when there are a lot out there that tie into this matter.
why do people not want ot look at scriptures and use a verse or a few wordds to interpret something that is shown to have a specific meaning or idea.
Over and over again have Scriptures put in front of those that do not believe Jesus was with the Father before the world was. I just can't believe such unbelief to say the least. These Scriptures are so clear. But no some like Gene and kerwin have to interpret them the way they see it and not the way they are written. It makes me sick. You call yourselves Christian and yet don't let the Holy Spirit teach you through others. John who was Jesus Brother used the right words to say that He was the Word in the beginning and was with God and was God. God is a title and in Ancient times many were called God's. That does not mean that Jesus is the Almighty God our Heavenly Father. To think that it is intellect is the most ridiculous idea that I have ever heard. Wake up and see the light. It became flesh and no plan or intellect can do that. It also is not the Father like some say. Nobody has seen God or heard His voice.
All Scriptures given and I am not about to go through it again.
Peace and Love IreneNick……….GOD also has all POWER with THAT MIND, you should not forget that, While you try to delude people with you lack of understanding. What do you think scripture say when it says “LET (THIS) MIND BE IN YOU THAT WAS IN CHRIST JESUS OUR Lord”. God was in Jesus through that mind. While you hate the Idea GOD has a Mind and the giver of (ALL) Thought, that still does not detract from Scripture , your lack of understanding is speaking, to no avail to yourself or anyone else for that matter. Nick remember when Jesus told the Pharisees they were not of GOD or they would understand the things He was saying , I feel the same about you , What i have said is clear and Logical and i believe anyone with the SPIRIT of GOD in them can easily understand it. So that leaves me with only one conclusion concerning you. I believe you are of the Pharisees , you attack anyone who disagree with you dogmas, and i am (NOT) the only one who has noticed this, many here have. And please do not put words in MY MOUTH as to WHAT GOD IS to ME, You have no idea what my relationship with HIM is or anyone else's as far as that goes. IMO
Irene…..I don't want to change you, believe as you will, but there are more the Me and Kerwin , who do not believe Jesus Preexisted before his berth here, CON, matian, Terriccia, Jodi Lee, Mandy, Kerwin, myself, and several others. You have yet to produce ONE scripture or explanation for GOD to have used a (PREEXISTING) Being Kill Him and rebirth HIM and have him die again. I have ask you many times to give a reason for that, but you fail to, why is that? If Jesus preexisted as a Being before his Berth as some kind of demigod or super being, WHAT DOES THAT PROVE TO US, HOW DOES THAT HELP US BELIEVE THAT GOD CAN ALSO DO THE SAME THING HE DID WITH JESUS TO US, JESUS WOULD (NOT) HAVE BEEN (EXACTLY) LIKE US WOULD HE. In fact the preexistence doctrine actually tares down the truth of GOD dealing with HIS Childern Just as Bad a the doctrine of the Trinity DOES, maybe even worse. Come out from that false teaching, and realize GOD the FATHER had a Plan to Perfect HIs Childern and Jesus was the first of (OUR) kind to achieve that goal with the help of the FATHER. Jesus is ONE OF US, you need to stop pushing Him away from your likeness. IMO
gene your not making any sense with your ramblings at all.
what is this “a Being Kill Him and rebirth HIM and have him die again.
did he die 2 times?? not sure what you mean. i see only one time that the bible says god's son, jesus christ had died. where do you get he died 2 times?
there are a lot of scriptures that tell you why and what his ransom means to us all. there are a scriptures that tell you that he was in heaven with his father before the earth was created. its been posted over and over again.
just because you choose not to read them for what they say is all your doing.
the scribess and pharisees and non believers alike even knowing that his arrival was predicted, denied and hated christ and chose to do the things of man, of flesh and what had been tradition from there fathers beforehand.
now is not the time to be living as those did.we are to have everlasting life through jesus, belief in him and what he taught and preached and to spread that to others.
one cannot do that if one does not believe whole heartedly and accept the truth.
the jews new, others new he was to come and they did believe but chose to turn a blind eye and wanting to live the life they had. they were to puffed up with pride claiming that since they were decendents of abraham they were fine. they though they wre rightous and needed no guidence from another. but such is not the case. they hated him and didn't want ot listen at all even with all the miracles teachings he did. they new but didn't care.
christ is the way and his requires a spiritual way. he did not come to fix judiasm, he came and established christianity.
before him with moses it was a flesh way to god with the commandments. live life this way or else. now its jesus and spiritual believe and accepting him. preaching god kingdom to others and do rightous things.
Quote (Gene @ Dec. 19 2009,09:01) Irene…..I don't want to change you, believe as you will, but there are more the Me and Kerwin , who do not believe Jesus Preexisted before his berth here, CON, matian, Terriccia, Jodi Lee, Mandy, Kerwin, myself, and several others. You have yet to produce ONE scripture or explanation for GOD to have used a (PREEXISTING) Being Kill Him and rebirth HIM and have him die again. I have ask you many times to give a reason for that, but you fail to, why is that? If Jesus preexisted as a Being before his Berth as some kind of demigod or super being, WHAT DOES THAT PROVE TO US, HOW DOES THAT HELP US BELIEVE THAT GOD CAN ALSO DO THE SAME THING HE DID WITH JESUS TO US, JESUS WOULD (NOT) HAVE BEEN (EXACTLY) LIKE US WOULD HE. In fact the preexistence doctrine actually tares down the truth of GOD dealing with HIS Childern Just as Bad a the doctrine of the Trinity DOES, maybe even worse. Come out from that false teaching, and realize GOD the FATHER had a Plan to Perfect HIs Childern and Jesus was the first of (OUR) kind to achieve that goal with the help of the FATHER. Jesus is ONE OF US, you need to stop pushing Him away from your likeness. IMO
really just like us.? humi didn't know healing the blind and casting out demons and healing leprosy and raising the dead.
isaiah's prophecy's had come true well before his arrivel.
mere man like us he's not.
sure jesus christ thanks you for thinking so!
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Titus 1:1 Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness, 2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,
In the beginning was God's WORD of a promise of eternal life!
Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
1 Peter 1:18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
2 Timothy 1:8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,
In the beginning was the plan for a human being to bring salvation!
Genesis 18:18 since Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
Genesis 26:4 And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”
1 Chronicles 17:11 And it shall be, when your days are fulfilled, when you must go to be with your fathers, that I will set up your seed after you, who will be of your sons; and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He shall build Me a house, and I will establish his throne forever. 13 I will be his Father, and he shall be My son; and I will not take My mercy away from him, as I took it from him who was before you. 14 And I will establish him in My house and in My kingdom forever; and his throne shall be established forever.” ' “
Psalms 16:9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoices; My flesh also will rest in hope. 10 For You will not leave my soul in Sheol, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption. 11 You will show me the path of life; In Your presence is fullness of joy; At Your right hand are pleasures forevermore.
Acts 13:22 And when He had removed him, He raised up for them David as king, to whom also He gave testimony and said, 'I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after My own heart, who will do all My will.' 23 From this man's seed, according to the promise, God raised up for Israel a Savior–Jesus–24 after John had first preached, before His coming, the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel. 25 And as John was finishing his course, he said, 'Who do you think I am? I am not He. But behold, there comes One after me, the sandals of whose feet I am not worthy to loose.' 26 Men and brethren, sons of the family of Abraham, and those among you who fear God, to you the word of this salvation has been sent. 27 For those who dwell in Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they did not know Him, nor even the voices of the Prophets which are read every Sabbath, have fulfilled them in condemning Him. 28 And though they found no cause for death in Him, they asked Pilate that He should be put to death. 29 Now when they had fulfilled all that was written concerning Him, they took Him down from the tree and laid Him in a tomb. 30 But God raised Him from the dead. 31 He was seen for many days by those who came up with Him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are His witnesses to the people. 32 And we declare to you glad tidings–that promise which was made to the fathers. 33 God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm: 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.' 34 And that He raised Him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, He has spoken thus: 'I will give you the sure mercies of David.' 35 Therefore He also says in another Psalm: 'You will not allow Your Holy One to see corruption.' 36 “For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell asleep, was buried with his fathers, and saw corruption; 37 but He whom God raised up saw no corruption. 38 Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins; 39 and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.
Matthew22:28 Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had her.” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven. 31 But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 32 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” 33 And when the multitudes heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.
Mark 12:25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 26 But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken.”
Luke 20:37 But even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord 'the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.'
2 Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,
1 John 2:25 And this is the promise that He has promised us–eternal life.
John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” 57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
Jesus was the man promised to come before time began that would be the way to YHWH's PROMISE of eternal life. Abraham rejoiced for YHWH showed him the FUTURE of that day, the DAY when Christ was raised from the dead. Jesus IS the fulfillment of YHWH's great promise that existed before time began. Jesus never saw Abraham, Abraham saw the DAY of Jesus that was to come. Moses as well as David and other prophets were all given this same revelation. The Jew
ish people were NEVER said to be waiting for a “spirit son” to give up his immortality and come down from heaven and become a human being. They were waiting for the HUMAN MESSIAH to come.John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.
The Son of Man CAME DOWN from Heaven, meaning the fulfillment of a promise came, not some “spirit son”, morphing into a human being.
Luke 1:67 Now his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying: 68 “Blessed is the Lord God of Israel, For He has visited and redeemed His people, 69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us In the house of His servant David, 70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets, Who have been since the world began, 71 That we should be saved from our enemies And from the hand of all who hate us, 72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers And to remember His holy covenant, 73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham:
John 6:31 Our fathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written, 'He gave them bread from heaven to eat.' ” 32 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” 34 Then they said to Him, “Lord, give us this bread always.” 35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
There is NO will of a “spirit son”, who decided to give up some position in heaven to come down to earth be morphed into a human being and then die for us. Not only does that idea not exist in the bible it is directly against the scriptures. It was the Father’s Will, and that will was for a man to be sent into the world at a specific time to become mankind’s savior. As the manna is said to have come from heaven, so too is Jesus said to have come from heaven, does that mean that the bread pre-existed, or does it mean that the bread came through the direct planning and power of YHWH, just like Jesus came to us under the direct will and plan of the Father? Coming “down from heaven” means COMING from YHWH!
The message is not that some “spirit son” came to earth because his dad wanted him to and he likewise. The message is that YHWH had a plan in the beginning, of which we know directly from scripture consisted of YHWH sending a human savior into the world. Jesus being referred to as being sent from heaven or coming from heaven, has absolutely nothing to do with pre-existing, but everything to do with the fact that YHWH can fulfill His promises, it is a testament to the power and wisdom of YHWH as well as the establishment of knowing we can fully trust IN HIM, that He will keep His promises.
In the beginning was the word, that word was the promise of eternal life, that word was known before time began to come through one man….. a second Adam who would one day be sent into the world. That man was Jesus, and he fulfilled the word of YHWH bringing forth eternal life. Eternal life comes from the Spirit of YHWH.
In the beginning was the Word, which was the PROMISE of Eternal Life. That Word was With God in the form of His knowledge of the coming Messiah. That Word was YHWH because YHWH is Eternal Life!!
Jodi Lee wrote:
Quote In the beginning was the Word, which was the PROMISE of Eternal Life. That Word was With God in the form of His knowledge of the coming Messiah. That Word was YHWH because YHWH is Eternal Life!!
I seem to have a short attention span but your conclusion is well written.
The name of “Elohim can be carried by anyone through whom He chooses to ‘manifest’ or reveal Himself. So men and angels as well as Yeshua HaMoshiach can carry “Elohim’s name.
This is a vital principle which opens up so much of the Bible to us.
A son especially may carry the name of his father; he has certain similarities with his father, he may have the same first name – but he is not one and the same person as the father.
In the same way a representative of a company may speak on behalf of the company; he may telephone someone on business and say, ‘Hello, this is Unilever here’; he is not Mr. Unilever, but he carries their name because he is working on their behalf.
And so it was with Yeshua HaMoshiach.
ANGELS CARRY “ELOHIM’S NAME
We are told in Ex. 23:20,21 that 'Elohim told the people of Israel that an angel would go ahead of them; “My name is in Him”, they were told.
The personal name of 'Elohim is ‘Yahweh’.
So the angel carried the name of Yahweh, and could thus be called ‘Yahweh’, or ‘The LORD’, in small capitals, as the word ‘Yahweh’ is translated in the N.I.V. and A.V.
We are told in Ex. 33:20 that no man can see the face of 'Elohim and live; but in Ex. 33:11 we read that “The LORD (Yahweh) spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend” – i.e. directly.
It could not have been the LORD, Yahweh, Himself in person, who spoke to Moses face to face, because no man can see 'Elohim Himself.
It was the angel who carried 'Elohim’s name who did so; and so we read of the LORD speaking face to face with Moses when it was actually an angel who did so (Acts 7:30 33).
There are many other examples of the words ‘'Elohim’ and ‘LORD’ referring to the angels as opposed to 'Elohim Himself.
One clear example is Gen. 1:26: “And 'Elohim (the angels) said, Let us make man in our image”.
MEN WITH 'ELOHIM’S NAME
One of the passages which is most helpful in demonstrating all this is John 10:34-36.
Here the Jews made the mistake which many do today.
They thought that Yeshua HaMoshiach was saying he was 'Elohim Himself.
Yeshua HaMoshiach corrected them by saying, “Is it not written in your law, I said, You are gods?
If He called them ‘gods’…why do you say of (me)…’You blaspheme!’ because I said, I am the Son of 'Elohim?’.
Yeshua HaMoshiach is really saying ‘In the Old Testament men are called ‘gods’; I am saying I am the Son of 'Elohim; so why are you getting so upset?’
Yeshua HaMoshiach is actually quoting from Ps. 82, where the judges of Israel were called ‘gods’.
As has been shown, the full name of G-d in Hebrew is ‘Yahweh Elohim’ – implying ‘He who will be revealed in a group of mighty ones’.
The true believers are those in whom 'Elohim is revealed in a limited sense in this life.
However, in the Kingdom, they will be ‘mighty ones’ in whom the LORD will be fully manifested.
This is all beautifully shown by a comparison of Is. 64:4 and 1 Cor. 2:9. “Men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither has the eye seen, O 'Elohim, besides you, what He has prepared for him that waits for him”.
Paul quotes this in 1 Cor. 2:9,10: “It is written, Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither has entered into the heart of man, the things which 'Elohim has prepared for them that love Him. But 'Elohim has revealed them unto us by His Spirit”.
The passage in Is. 64 says that no one except 'Elohim can understand the things He has prepared for the believers.
However 1 Cor. 2:10 says that those things have been revealed to us.
The priests were 'Elohim’s representatives, and for a man to ‘appear before the Lord’ effectively referred to his appearance before the priest.
When we read of “men going up to 'Elohim at Bethel”, the ‘house of 'Elohim’ (1 Sam. 10:3), we aren’t to think that 'Elohim Himself lived in a house in Bethel.
The reference is to the priests, his representative, being there.
Not only is the Name of 'Elohim carried by people, but language and actions which are specific to 'Elohim are sometimes applied to humans who manifest Him.
The daughter of Pharaoh who saved baby Moses is described in the very terms with which 'Elohim is described as saving His people Israel 'out of the water' just as Moses was saved.
She came 'came down', 'sees' the suffering child, hears its cry, takes pity, draws him out of the water, provides for him (Ex. 2:23-25; 3:7,8).
The parallels are surely to indicate that 'Elohim was willing to show Himself manifest in that Gentile woman in the salvation of His people.
And of course the whole practical idea of 'Elohim manifestation' is that we consciously try to reflect the characteristics of 'Elohimd, for His Name is in fact a summary of His characteristics and personality (Ex. 34:4-6).
YESHUA HAMOSHIACH AND THE NAME OF 'ELOHIM
It is not surprising that Yeshua HaMoshiach, as the Son of 'Elohim and His supreme manifestation to men, should also carry 'Elohim’s name.
He could say “I am come in my Father’s name” (Jn. 5:43).
Because of his obedience, Yeshua HaMoshiach ascended to heaven and 'Elohim “gave him a name which is above every name,” the name of Yahweh, of 'Elohim Himself (Phil. 2:9).
So this is why we read Yeshua HaMoshiach saying in Rev. 3:12: “I will write upon him (the believer) the name of my 'Elohim. . . and I will write upon him my new name”. At the judgment Yeshua HaMoshiach will give us 'Elohim’s name; we then will fully carry the name of 'Elohim.
He calls this name, “My new name”.
Remember, Yeshua HaMoshiach gave the book of Revelation some years after his ascension into heaven and after he had been given 'Elohim’s name, as explained in Phil. 2:9.
So he can call 'Elohim’s name “My new name”; the name he had recently been given.
We can now properly understand Is. 9:6, where concerning Yeshua HaMoshiach we are told, “His name (note that) shall be called, Wonderful, Counsellor, the mighty 'Elohim, the everlasting Father. . .”.
This is a prophecy that Yeshua HaMoshiach would carry all the name of 'Elohim, that he would be the total manifestation or revelation of 'Elohim to us.
It was in this sense that he was called ‘Emmanuel’, meaning, 'Elohim is with us’, although He personally was not 'Elohim.
Thus the prophecy of Joel 2 that men would call on the name of Yahweh was fulfilled by people being baptised into the name of Yeshua HaMoshiach (Acts 2:21 cf. 38).
This also explains why the command to baptize into the name of the Father was fulfilled, as detailed in the Acts record, by baptism into the name of Yeshua HaMoshiach.
The Jews were fierce monotheists, any idea that there was any 'Elohim apart from 'Elohim the Father was to them blasphemous.
And yet their own writings have no problem in using the language of 'Elohim' in relation to men and Angels, e.g. Ezra addresses the Angel Uriel as 'Elohim Himself (2 Esdr. 5:43).
It is this idea of ''Elohim manifestation' in a person or Angel which is so common in the Bible, and which inevitably at times is used about 'Elohim's own Son, Yeshua HaMoshiach.
But the use of such language doesn't mean that Yeshua HaMoshiach is 'Elohim Himself in person.
Language Of 'Elohim Used About Yeshua HaMoshiach: Some Background
We need to appreciate the extent to which the first century Middle East understood a messenger as being the very person of the one who sent him. R.J.Z. Werblowski and Geoffrey Wigoder in The Encyclopedia Of The Jewish Religion speak of “the Jewish Law of Agencies” or 'Schaliach', as: “The main point of the Jewish law of agency expressed in the dictum, “A person's agent is regarded as the person himself”. Therefore any act committed by a duly appointed agent is regarded as having been committed by the principle.” G.R.B. Murray comments that: “One sent is as he who sent him… The messenger [the Shaliach] is thereby granted authority and dignity by virtue of his bearing the status of the one who sent him. This is the more remarkable when it is borne in mind that in earlier times the messenger was commonly a slave”. Bearing this background in mind, it isn't surprising that language specific to 'Elohim is used about His Son and messenger.
The idea is sometimes expressed that calling Yeshua HaMoshiach “Son of 'Elohim” somehow makes Him 'Elohim. Apart from the illogicality of this [a son isn't the same being as his father], the language of “Son of 'Elohim” is used in the Old Testament of men. Even the term “'Elohim” is used of men (Ps. 45:6; 82:6; Ex. 21:6; 22:8). The first century mind was quite used to men being called 'god' or Divine. The Jews were strongly monotheistic, paranoid of any implication that Yahweh was not the only 'Elohim; and yet they were happy to use the word “god” about men. Philo [a Jewish writer] spoke of Moses as “appointed by 'Elohim as god” and “no longer man but 'Elohim”. And of course the Greek and Roman rulers, both local and otherwise, were described with 'Divine' language- e.g. Antiochus Epiphanes means ''Elohim made manifest'. There was no understanding that these 'divine' titles therefore made these men to be 'Elohim Himself in person. Apollonius explains that “every man who is considered good is honoured with the title of “god”” (Apollonius Of Tyana 8.4). Indeed any hero, leader of King was addressed as 'Elohim'. We can see from Acts 14:11-13 and Acts 28:6 how easily first century folk were inclined to call a man “'Elohim” if he did miracles. I remember clearly in my early days of missionary work in Africa being called “Wazungu” or “Mazungu” by fascinated children who'd scarcely seen a white man before. And I recall my shock on discovering that this term means both “white man” and “'Elohim” (and is frequently used as such in translations of the Bible into Central and East African languages). But this is actually what was going on in the Hellenistic and Roman worlds. And so when Divine language was applied to Yeshua HaMoshiach, there is no reason to think that the first century mind would've concluded that therefore Yeshua HaMoshiach was 'Elohim Himself in person, just as those fascinated kids calling out “Wazungu! Wazungu!” as I walked by were hardly understanding me as 'Elohim Himself in person. Here we have one of the most glaring examples of problems arising from not reading 'Elohim's word with an appreciation of the context in which it was spoken and written. In European culture, it would be unheard of, or blasphemous and at best inappropriate, to call any man “'Elohim” or “Son of 'Elohim”. But this wasn't the case in the first century world. In that world, and it was against the background of that world that the New Testament was written, the use of Divine language about a person, or about Yeshua HaMoshiach the Son of 'Elohim, didn't make them 'Elohim Himself in person.
Again and again we have to emphasize that we read the Biblical documents at a great distance from the culture in which they were first written. It was quite understandable for a person to carry the name of their superior, without being that superior in person. And so it was and is with the Lord Yeshua HaMoshiach. To give just one of many possible confirmations of this: “[In 2 Esdras 5:43-46]… 'Elohim's spokesman, the angel Uriel, is questioned by Ezra as though he were both Creator and Judge [which 'Elohim alone is]. Ezra uses the same style of address to Uriel (“My lord, my master”) as he uses in direct petition to 'Elohim. This practice of treating the agent as though he were the principal is of the greatest importance for New Testament Christology ”. The acclamation of Thomas “My Lord and my 'Elohim!” must be understood within the context of first century usage, where as Paul says, many people were called Lord and “god” (1 Cor. 8:4-6). If we're invited by our manager “Come and meet the president”, we don't expect to meet the President of the USA. We expect to meet the president of the company. The word “president” can have more than one application, and it would be foolish to assume that in every case it referred to the President of the USA. And it's the same with the words “Lord” and “'Elohim” in their first century usage. Hence a Jewish non-trinitarian like Philo could call Moses “'Elohim and king of the whole nation” (Life Of Moses 1.158)- and nobody accused him of not being monotheistic! Significantly, there is in the New Testament the Greek word latreuo which specifically refers to the worship of 'Elohim, and this is always [21 times] applied to 'Elohim and not Yeshua HaMoshiach. The worship of Yeshua HaMoshiach that is recorded is always to 'Elohim's glory, and is recorded with the same words [especially proskuneo] used about the worship of believers (Rev. 3:9, Daniel (Dan. 2:46 LX), kings of Israel etc. (1 Chron. 29:20 LXX).
It should be noted that “Many think that the list of titles in Is. 9:5 was borrowed from the traditional titles of the monarchs of other countries, especially of the Egyptian pharaoh… the title applied to the king of Judah portrays him as one specially favoured by 'Elohim, e.g. “the divine mighty one” or “divine warrior”, Raymond Brown, An Introduction To New Testament Christology (London: Geoffrey Chapman, 1994) p. 187.
George R. Beasley Murray, Gospel of Life: Theology In The Fourth Gospel (Peabody, Mass.: Hendrickson, 1991), p.18.
Citations in James Dunn, Christology In The Making (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1980) p. 17.
For documentation, see D. Cuss, Imperial Cult And Honorary Terms In The New Testament (Fribourg: Fribourg University Press, 1974) pp. 134-140.
G.B. Caird, The Language And Imagery Of The Bible (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1980) p. 181.
Constitutionalist wrote:
Quote Yeshua HaMoshiach is actually quoting from Ps. 82, where the judges of Israel were called ‘gods’.
There is also this verse.
Psalms 138:1(NIV) reads:
Quote I will praise you, O LORD, with all my heart;
before the “gods” I will sing your praise.This is where he calls them gods as the children of God are “gods”.
Deuteronomy 14:1(NIV) reads:
Quote [ Clean and Unclean Food ] You are the children of the LORD your God. Do not cut yourselves or shave the front of your heads for the dead,
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Dec. 19 2009,17:41) You are correct, and don't see things like these.
Trinitarians can't compare verses for some reason.
Trinitarians also think the image of God is God as if the image of me in the mirror is me. Logical reasoning is not their strong point.Quote (Constitutionalist @ Dec. 19 2009,22:41) You are correct, and don't see things like these.
Trinitarians can't compare verses for some reason.
1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.”10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.”
Okay, explain what it is about the statements highlighted in bold that you do not understand.
thinker
Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 19 2009,22:54) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Dec. 19 2009,17:41) You are correct, and don't see things like these.
Trinitarians can't compare verses for some reason.
Trinitarians also think the image of God is God as if the image of me in the mirror is me. Logical reasoning is not their strong point.
Misrepresentation! Hebrews 1 says that the Son is the express image of God's substance. It means that Christ's being was not derived. The sun's rays are the “exact image” of the sun's substance.The term “express image” or “exact representation” is NEVER used of other men. At best it means the Son is God. In the least it means that Jesus was a unique man.
thinker
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
