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your explanation maybe looked like this ,forget John 1-1,for now; can you prove with the scriptures that christ is god ,that he is the god father,can you honestly from the gospels account tel that jesus is god the father?
and can you also prove that God the fether has no Son???peace2all wrote:
Quote the bible will not contradict itself. you add opinions, I’ve used scriptures.
The Devil used scriptures in tempting Jesus. That in itself proves nothing. The question is do you believe Peter when he states that some scripture is hard to understand. I ask because you insist that understand all scripture correctly and have no opinion. That sounds absurd considering that opinion means, among other things, a reason for your judgment about scripture. God has opinions and those opinions are facts. I suppose you could be using another definition for opinion; such as a personal belief or judgment that is not founded on proof or certainty. If that is the case then I disagree; as I find your personal beliefs lack certainty.
Have you ever read Proverbs 26:4-5 which certainly appears to contradict if interpreted incorrectly as in one sentence it instructs you “not to answer a fool according to his folly” and in the next it instructs you to do so. Such apparent contradictions are common in scripture if you fail to adopt God’s interpretation, i.e. opinion.
I am asking you to look at all scriptures from God’s point of view and not from man’s. God is righteous and wants his people to be righteous and therefore righteousness is of a prime importance to him. That is why is more concerned about your location on the plane of righteousness than he is about your physical location.
Jesus was well known not to speak plainly because he expected his hearers to look at things from God’s point of view. In one case he instructed a certain individual that you must be born again. The man in question then answered Jesus from the world’s point of view and stated “how can one be born when one is old”. He was obviously not looking at it from God’s point of view since God would have been looking at being born in relationship to righteousness. It is clear to those listening from God's point of view that Jesus was telling the man that he could not enter heaven unless he was born again in righteousness.
Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 11 2009,11:48) hi p2
i think what kerwin try to tell you is that the scriptures said that christ was born out of the vergin with the Holy spirit ,
and you talk abode that Christ came from above ,you both right it is just time and fullfillment of Gods will.
he was god's son before he was our christ, that is the point!he was in heaven as god's son in heaven as bible says helping create before being our savior
Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 11 2009,17:29) peace2all wrote: Quote the bible will not contradict itself. you add opinions, I’ve used scriptures.
The Devil used scriptures in tempting Jesus. That in itself proves nothing. The question is do you believe Peter when he states that some scripture is hard to understand. I ask because you insist that understand all scripture correctly and have no opinion. That sounds absurd considering that opinion means, among other things, a reason for your judgment about scripture. God has opinions and those opinions are facts. I suppose you could be using another definition for opinion; such as a personal belief or judgment that is not founded on proof or certainty. If that is the case then I disagree; as I find your personal beliefs lack certainty.
Have you ever read Proverbs 26:4-5 which certainly appears to contradict if interpreted incorrectly as in one sentence it instructs you “not to answer a fool according to his folly” and in the next it instructs you to do so. Such apparent contradictions are common in scripture if you fail to adopt God’s interpretation, i.e. opinion.
I am asking you to look at all scriptures from God’s point of view and not from man’s. God is righteous and wants his people to be righteous and therefore righteousness is of a prime importance to him. That is why is more concerned about your location on the plane of righteousness than he is about your physical location.
Jesus was well known not to speak plainly because he expected his hearers to look at things from God’s point of view. In one case he instructed a certain individual that you must be born again. The man in question then answered Jesus from the world’s point of view and stated “how can one be born when one is old”. He was obviously not looking at it from God’s point of view since God would have been looking at being born in relationship to righteousness. It is clear to those listening from God's point of view that Jesus was telling the man that he could not enter heaven unless he was born again in righteousness.
your looking at it from yuor own opiniontry using scriptures adn the message it brings, not your outlook on it..
when seeking an answer from the bible is not the same as reading through the bible trying to understand every word.
answers will be supported by numerous scriptures all leading to the message. it will not tell you multiple views on a subject.
kerwin.
he wasn't the messiah t oue of christ until his baptism.thats what im saying. he was god's son in heaven before his arrival on earth. so to say god's son didn't pre exsist is wrong.
do you believe he was god's son first in heaven beside god, crating all and then he became our christ our messiah after..
he still was god's son first one cannot say his sone was first created when in mary's womb
Let me add my understanding of the subject. In John 17:5 Jesus tells us that He wants to go back to where He was before.
Now if He only was a thought or a plan in God's mind, He went back to that? Now that makes no sense.
He had a glory with the Father before He became a man.
If it says in Rev. 3:14 that He was the firstborn of all creation. How can that only be a plan?Col. 1:15 also says that He was the firstborn of all creation.
And how can Scripture say that He may have preeminence, how can that only be in God's Plan.If you don't know what prominence means, look it up in a Dictionary. It says that He was first in all.
Also John 1:1-14 How can He only be a Plan when He became flesh. It says that nobody has seen God or heard His voice. So who was it then when in verse 14 He became flesh?
The Scriptures in Proverbs 8: 22-30 are my favorites. Most will say that this is talking about wisdom. But think about this. If He created all without wisdom? O come on give me a break.
No, Jesus was before the world with His Father. And He knew where He came from in John 17:5.IMO God had to send His only begotten Son into the world to save the world. Because all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. No one could do this and not sin. Jesus was not an ordinary Human being. That is the only way that we are saved. By faith in Him, through grace.
And how could He as a 12 year old go into the Temple and preach. Have you ever seen a 12 year old do that? I have not.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (banana @ Dec. 12 2009,07:02) Let me add my understanding of the subject. In John 17:5 Jesus tells us that He wants to go back to where He was before.
Now if He only was a thought or a plan in God's mind, He went back to that? Now that makes no sense.
He had a glory with the Father before He became a man.
If it says in Rev. 3:14 that He was the firstborn of all creation. How can that only be a plan?Col. 1:15 also says that He was the firstborn of all creation.
And how can Scripture say that He may have preeminence, how can that only be in God's Plan.If you don't know what prominence means, look it up in a Dictionary. It says that He was first in all.
Also John 1:1-14 How can He only be a Plan when He became flesh. It says that nobody has seen God or heard His voice. So who was it then when in verse 14 He became flesh?
The Scriptures in Proverbs 8: 22-30 are my favorites. Most will say that this is talking about wisdom. But think about this. If He created all without wisdom? O come on give me a break.
No, Jesus was before the world with His Father. And He knew where He came from in John 17:5.IMO God had to send His only begotten Son into the world to save the world. Because all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. No one could do this and not sin. Jesus was not an ordinary Human being. That is the only way that we are saved. By faith in Him, through grace.
And how could He as a 12 year old go into the Temple and preach. Have you ever seen a 12 year old do that? I have not.
Peace and Love Irene
right on banana.why do some here fight jesus so much?
to make him so unemportant and almost meaningless to all.
to demean him.its sad.
even if we took there view, by downplayin him and denying things then would mean to them that they are doing it to god, which then would be worse. LOL
Quote (logoslogic @ Dec. 11 2009,06:13) Considering the large number of diverse posts on the subject of John 1:1, allow me to comment without addressing anyone’s post specifically. The interpretation of John 1:1 depends on your fundamental theology whether Jesus existed before He was born as Jesus 2000 years ago or not. If your paradigm is preexistence then you will read John 1:1 as: In the beginning was the WORD (meaning Jesus), and the WORD (meaning Jesus) was with God, and the WORD (meaning Jesus) was God. This falls in line with traditional Roman Catholic Trinitarian (mystery) teaching.
But that is not what the Bible says. It says: “In the beginning was the WORD.” First of all let’s define “beginning.” I believe it to mean from all eternity and throughout Old Testament time. Secondly, we need to ask: Who’s WORD was in the beginning? My answer: It was the WORD of God. So now, John 1:1 reads: “In the beginning was the WORD (of God), and the WORD (of God) was with God, and the WORD (of God) was God.” For a better understanding we can personify John 1:1 to read: In the beginning is my word, and my word is with me, and my word is me. In other words, in the beginning was ONE God, Yahweh Elohim and (it) His WORD. It was through (it) His WORD that God created the heavens and the earth – God spoke and it was! John 1:1 tells us who and what was in the beginning and throughout Old Testament time.
Now we come to John 1:2 which says: “He was in the beginning with God.” Notice the change from “it” – the WORD, to “He” – Jesus, after the WORD became FLESH in John 1:14, telling us what was then, in New Testament time.
Gen.1:1 says exactly the same as John 1:1 that in the beginning was ONE God – God Almighty. This ONE God then decided to raise up for Himself a family, and so He chose the slave nation Israel and entered into a marriage covenant with Israel at Mt Sinai. In the “fullness of time” God chose the Jewess Mary, representing all of Israel – His wife, as the (surrogate) Mother of their only (so) begotten and firstborn Son, whom they named Jesus.
God is not Trinitarian, not Twinitarian and not Unitarian. God is monotheistic from beginning to end. There was but ONE God Being from the beginning and throughout Old Testament time, and there is but ONE God Family throughout New Testament time and into the Kingdome age.
The preexisting of Jesus has nothing to do with the Catholic religion or the trinity. John 1:1 is only one Scripture that shows us that the Word or the Spoken Word of God was in the beginning with God. No body has seen the Father God or heard His voice. If that is true then it has to be another being in John 1:1 that became flesh in verse 14. That Scripture goes along with Col. 1:15-17 He was the firstborn of all creation. So what does that mean? Also in Rev,3:14 He is the firstborn of all creation.
And then by Jesus own words He said that He had a glory with thew Father before the world was.
Also you misquoting Genesis, it says let us and our image.
God was not alone. Again beginning is beginning and not always existed, that is also misquoting. What is the matter with you? It has nothing again to do with the Catholics. You
really don't know what they believe. They believe that they always existed, I don't. Preexisting has a beginning.
Also in Col. 1:18 He was also the firstborn of the death, so that in all He may have preeminence. He was first in all.
And the Word God the Father became flesh, No a thousand No, No. Nobody has seen God or heard His voice.
If you consider that the Word was God or the Son of God and He became flesh that is what fits, but not your Theology.
The mystery of God has been revealed to His Saints. There is no more Mystery. The Catholics think there is, but not those that believe in Christ as our Savior. He died once for all of us. There is no more Sacrifice needed. The Catholics sacrifice Christ each time they say the Mass.
I find it ironic how you define john 1:1. You interpret the way you want it to read and not the way it is written. It always amazes me the way you label people. I consider myself a Christian only. When we belonged to the Catholic Church nobody including the Priests believed in the preexisting of Jesus. That is false. I am sitting here and shaking my head how you interpret the Scriptures. Read them the way they are written. Who spoke to Mses since it says that nobody has seen or heard God the Fathers voice?
Also look in your Dictionary what beginning means. It does not mean from all eternity. Again your interpretation.
Irenepeace2all wrote:
Quote that what I’m saying. He was god's son in heaven before his arrival on earth. So to say god's son didn't pre exist is wrong.
Jesus is God’s Son because he never sinned even though he was tempted even as we are. I believe stating he is God’s Son is like stating he is God’s firstborn Son. I do not believe in Jesus’ preexistence as Jesus I believe that it is necessary for the fundamentals of faith that we believe Jesus is a human tempted in every way that we are but without sin.
peace2all wrote:
Quote he wasn't the messiah t oue of Christ until his baptism.
Messiah or Christ means Anointed One and I believe he has been anointed by the Holy Spirit at conception or at least sometime before birth. I am certainly not sure if that anointment is where he obtained his title.
peace2all wrote:
Quote he still was god's son first one cannot say his son was first created when in mary's womb
That is what scripture states by stating he was conceived in her womb. Conceived means formed. Scripture states he was formed and not just his body.
Like with Adam God formed his body and breathed life into him so that he became a living soul.
Irene wrote:
Quote No body has seen the Father God or heard His voice.
Here is a puzzle to think and consult God about.
2 Chronicles 18:18-22(NIV) reads:
Quote Micaiah continued, “Therefore hear the word of the LORD : I saw the LORD sitting on his throne with all the host of heaven standing on his right and on his left. And the LORD said, 'Who will entice Ahab king of Israel into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?' “One suggested this, and another that. Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD and said, 'I will entice him.'
” 'By what means?' the LORD asked.” 'I will go and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said.
” 'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the LORD. 'Go and do it.'“So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you.”
If nobody has seen the Father or heard his voice then is Micaiah the prophet lying?
Quote Banana wrote: Let me add my understanding of the subject. In John 17:5 Jesus tells us that He wants to go back to where He was before.
Now if He only was a thought or a plan in God's mind, He went back to that? Now that makes no sense.
He had a glory with the Father before He became a man.“The glory I had with you before the world was” John 17:5
What does the Bible mean when it speaks about “glory”?
The glory of 'Elohim was revealed to Moses at Sinai and what he heard was the declaration of 'Elohim’s Name or character, that Yahweh is a 'Elohim full of grace, mercy, truth, justice, judgment etc. Ex. 33:19; 34:6,7.
Yeshua HaMoshiach alludes to what happened at Sinai by saying that He has “glorified you. . . manifested your name” Jn. 17:4,6.
Whenever those characteristics of 'Elohim are recognized, manifested or openly shown, 'Elohim is glorified.
In this sense, 'Elohim is the “'Elohim of glory” Ps. 29:3 etc.
He is totally associated with His Name and characteristics, it’s not that He just shows those particular attributes to men, but He Himself personally is someone quite different.
He is His glory.
And this is why Jn. 17:5 parallels His glory with 'Elohim’s very own “self”.
That glory of 'Elohim was of course always with 'Elohim, right at the beginning of the world.
He hasn’t changed His essential characteristics over time.
The 'Elohim of the Old Testament is the same 'Elohim as in the New Testament.
As John begins his Gospel by saying, the essential “Word”, logos of 'Elohim, His essential plans, intentions, personality, was in the beginning with Him.
It was “made flesh” in the person of Yeshua HaMoshiach (Jn. 1:14), in that the Lord Yeshua HaMoshiach in His life and especially in His death on the cross revealed all those attributes and plans of 'Elohim in a concrete, visible form to perfection.
The request of Yeshua HaMoshiach to be glorified is therefore asking for the Name / attributes / characteristics / glory / word of 'Elohim to be openly revealed in Him.
Surely He had in mind His resurrection, and the glorifying of 'Elohim which would take place as a result of this being preached and believed in world wide.
But in what sense was this the glory which Yeshua HaMoshiach had with 'Elohim before the world was?
The “glory” of 'Elohim was revealed to Moses at Sinai in Ex. 34 as the declaration of His character.
In this sense, the Lord Yeshua HaMoshiach could speak of having in His mortal life “that glory which was with [the Father]” when the [Jewish] world came into existence at Sinai (Jn. 17:5 Ethiopic and Western Text).
It was that same glory which, like Moses, He reflected to men.
But according to 2 Cor. 3:18, the very experience of gazing upon the glory of His character will change us into a reflection of it.
There is something transforming about the very personality of Yeshua HaMoshiach.
And perhaps this is why we have such a psychological barrier to thinking about Him deeply.
We know that it has the power to transform and intrude into our innermost darkness.
There is essentially only one glory, the glory of the Son is a reflection or manifestation of the glory of the Father.
They may be seen as different glories only in the sense that the same glory is reflected from the Lord Yeshua HaMoshiach in His unique way; as a son reflects or articulates his father’s personality, it’s not a mirror personality, but it’s the same essence.
One star differs from another in glory, but they all reflect the same essential light of glory.
The Lord Yeshua HaMoshiach sought only the glory of the Father Jn. 7:18.
He spoke of 'Elohim’s glory as being the Son’s glory Jn. 11:4.
Thus Isaiah’s vision of 'Elohim’s glory is interpreted by John as a prophecy of the Son’s glory Jn. 12:41.
The glory of 'Elohim is His “own self”, His own personality and essence.
This was with 'Elohim of course from the ultimate beginning of all, and it was this glory which was manifested in both the death and glorification of the Lord Yeshua HaMoshiach Jn. 17:5.
The Old Testament title “'Elohim of glory” is applied to the Lord Yeshua HaMoshiach, “the Lord of glory” 1 Cor. 2:8; James 2:1.
It is 'Elohim’s glory which radiates from the face of Yeshua HaMoshiach 2 Cor. 4:6.
Yeshua HaMoshiach is the brightness of 'Elohim’s glory, because He is the express image of 'Elohim’s personality Heb. 1:3.
He received glory from 'Elohim’s glory 2 Pet. 1:17.
'Elohim is the “Father of glory”, the prime source of the one true glory, that is reflected both in the Lord Yeshua HaMoshiach and in ourselves Eph. 1:17.
The intimate relation of the Father's glory with that of the Son is brought out in Jn. 13:31,32: ” Now is the Son of man glorified, and 'Elohim is glorified in him; and 'Elohim shall glorify him in himself, and straightway shall he glorify him”.
What all this exposition means in practice is this.
There is only “one glory” of 'Elohim.
That glory refers to the essential “self”, the personality, characteristics, being etc.
The Lord Yeshua HaMoshiach manifested that glory in His mortal life Jn. 2:11.
But He manifests it now that He has been “glorified”, and will manifest it in the future day of His glory.
And the Lord was as in all things a pattern to us.
We are bidden follow in His path to glory.
We now in our personalities reflect and manifest the one glory of the Father, and our blessed Hope is glory in the future, to be glorified, to be persons who reflect and ‘are’ that glory in a more intimate and complete sense than we are now, marred as we are by our human dysfunction, sin, and weakness of will against temptation.
We now reflect that glory as in a dirty bronze mirror 2 Cor. 3:18.
The outline of 'Elohim’s glory in the face of Yeshua HaMoshiach is only dimly reflected in us.
But we are being changed, from glory to glory, the focus getting clearer all the time, until that great day when we meet Him and see Him face to face, with all that shall imply and result in.
But my point in this context is that there is only one glory.
That glory was with 'Elohim from the beginning.
Yeshua HaMoshiach was in the mind and plan of 'Elohim from the beginning.
It was 'Elohim’s original plan to resurrect and glorify and justify His Son.
And in Jn. 17:5, Yeshua HaMoshiach is asking that this will happen.
The glory which Yeshua HaMoshiach had “before the world was” is connected with the way that He was “foreordained before the foundation of the world” (1 Pet. 1:20), the way 'Elohim promised us eternal life (through His Son) before the world was Tit. 1:2.
2 Tim. 1:9 speaks of us as being called to salvation in Yeshua HaMoshiach “before the world began”, He “chose us in Him before the foundation of the world” Eph. 1:4.
In the same way as we didn’t personally exist before the world began, neither did Yeshua HaMoshiach.
Indeed 1 Cor. 2:7 speaks of us having some form of glory with 'Elohim “before the world began”.
It’s the idea of this “one glory” again, 'Elohim’s glory existed, and it was His plan to share it with His Son and with us; and He speaks of those things which are not as though they are, so certain are they of fulfilment Rom. 4:17.
In Jn. 17:5, the Lord Yeshua HaMoshiach is
‘pleading the promise’ of these things.
Quote (logoslogic @ Dec. 10 2009,11:13) Considering the large number of diverse posts on the subject of John 1:1, allow me to comment without addressing anyone’s post specifically. The interpretation of John 1:1 depends on your fundamental theology whether Jesus existed before He was born as Jesus 2000 years ago or not. If your paradigm is preexistence then you will read John 1:1 as: In the beginning was the WORD (meaning Jesus), and the WORD (meaning Jesus) was with God, and the WORD (meaning Jesus) was God. This falls in line with traditional Roman Catholic Trinitarian (mystery) teaching.
But that is not what the Bible says. It says: “In the beginning was the WORD.” First of all let’s define “beginning.” I believe it to mean from all eternity and throughout Old Testament time. Secondly, we need to ask: Who’s WORD was in the beginning? My answer: It was the WORD of God. So now, John 1:1 reads: “In the beginning was the WORD (of God), and the WORD (of God) was with God, and the WORD (of God) was God.” For a better understanding we can personify John 1:1 to read: In the beginning is my word, and my word is with me, and my word is me. In other words, in the beginning was ONE God, Yahweh Elohim and (it) His WORD. It was through (it) His WORD that God created the heavens and the earth – God spoke and it was! John 1:1 tells us who and what was in the beginning and throughout Old Testament time.
Now we come to John 1:2 which says: “He was in the beginning with God.” Notice the change from “it” – the WORD, to “He” – Jesus, after the WORD became FLESH in John 1:14, telling us what was then, in New Testament time.
Gen.1:1 says exactly the same as John 1:1 that in the beginning was ONE God – God Almighty. This ONE God then decided to raise up for Himself a family, and so He chose the slave nation Israel and entered into a marriage covenant with Israel at Mt Sinai. In the “fullness of time” God chose the Jewess Mary, representing all of Israel – His wife, as the (surrogate) Mother of their only (so) begotten and firstborn Son, whom they named Jesus.
God is not Trinitarian, not Twinitarian and not Unitarian. God is monotheistic from beginning to end. There was but ONE God Being from the beginning and throughout Old Testament time, and there is but ONE God Family throughout New Testament time and into the Kingdome age.
LOGOSLOGIC:Most excellant post! It was beautifully stated, such grandiose wording! I am still reeling in your words! I agree 100%!
Banana could really learn from what you wrote if she meditaited on those words in your response instead of parroting the usual response.
I will come to your bible study any day! Amein!
Alethuo! Quote (peace2all @ Dec. 11 2009,15:00) Quote (banana @ Dec. 12 2009,07:02) Let me add my understanding of the subject. In John 17:5 Jesus tells us that He wants to go back to where He was before.
Now if He only was a thought or a plan in God's mind, He went back to that? Now that makes no sense.
He had a glory with the Father before He became a man.
If it says in Rev. 3:14 that He was the firstborn of all creation. How can that only be a plan?Col. 1:15 also says that He was the firstborn of all creation.
And how can Scripture say that He may have preeminence, how can that only be in God's Plan.If you don't know what prominence means, look it up in a Dictionary. It says that He was first in all.
Also John 1:1-14 How can He only be a Plan when He became flesh. It says that nobody has seen God or heard His voice. So who was it then when in verse 14 He became flesh?
The Scriptures in Proverbs 8: 22-30 are my favorites. Most will say that this is talking about wisdom. But think about this. If He created all without wisdom? O come on give me a break.
No, Jesus was before the world with His Father. And He knew where He came from in John 17:5.IMO God had to send His only begotten Son into the world to save the world. Because all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. No one could do this and not sin. Jesus was not an ordinary Human being. That is the only way that we are saved. By faith in Him, through grace.
And how could He as a 12 year old go into the Temple and preach. Have you ever seen a 12 year old do that? I have not.
Peace and Love Irene
right on banana.why do some here fight jesus so much?
to make him so unemportant and almost meaningless to all.
to demean him.its sad.
even if we took there view, by downplayin him and denying things then would mean to them that they are doing it to god, which then would be worse. LOL
Peace,How does not accepting a trinitarian false teaching demean or make Yeshua HaMoshiach meaninless or unimportant? He is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords! He is responsible for giving me the path to Salvation!
I have yet seen a Non-Trinitarian or even a Universalist downplay or deny Him.
You sound Roman in speech to me, “You heretics! You must believe in the Roman Trinity! Or you will apostates from G-d!”
Denying the Trinity by no means denies Yeshua Hamoshiach or the One True Yahweh!
Quote Banana wrote: It always amazes me the way you label people. I consider myself a Christian only. When we belonged to the Catholic Church nobody including the Priests believed in the preexisting of Jesus. That is false. I am sitting here and shaking my head how you interpret the Scriptures. The “Trinity is the foundation of the catholic church”! Show me a catholic priest that does not believe in the trinity. It was Rome that branded Arians for their belief in the “One G-d”, and labelled them as heretics!”
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Dec. 12 2009,22:02) Quote (peace2all @ Dec. 11 2009,15:00) Quote (banana @ Dec. 12 2009,07:02) Let me add my understanding of the subject. In John 17:5 Jesus tells us that He wants to go back to where He was before.
Now if He only was a thought or a plan in God's mind, He went back to that? Now that makes no sense.
He had a glory with the Father before He became a man.
If it says in Rev. 3:14 that He was the firstborn of all creation. How can that only be a plan?Col. 1:15 also says that He was the firstborn of all creation.
And how can Scripture say that He may have preeminence, how can that only be in God's Plan.If you don't know what prominence means, look it up in a Dictionary. It says that He was first in all.
Also John 1:1-14 How can He only be a Plan when He became flesh. It says that nobody has seen God or heard His voice. So who was it then when in verse 14 He became flesh?
The Scriptures in Proverbs 8: 22-30 are my favorites. Most will say that this is talking about wisdom. But think about this. If He created all without wisdom? O come on give me a break.
No, Jesus was before the world with His Father. And He knew where He came from in John 17:5.IMO God had to send His only begotten Son into the world to save the world. Because all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. No one could do this and not sin. Jesus was not an ordinary Human being. That is the only way that we are saved. By faith in Him, through grace.
And how could He as a 12 year old go into the Temple and preach. Have you ever seen a 12 year old do that? I have not.
Peace and Love Irene
right on banana.why do some here fight jesus so much?
to make him so unemportant and almost meaningless to all.
to demean him.its sad.
even if we took there view, by downplayin him and denying things then would mean to them that they are doing it to god, which then would be worse. LOL
Peace,How does not accepting a trinitarian false teaching demean or make Yeshua HaMoshiach meaninless or unimportant? He is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords! He is responsible for giving me the path to Salvation!
I have yet seen a Non-Trinitarian or even a Universalist downplay or deny Him.
You sound Roman in speech to me, “You heretics! You must believe in the Roman Trinity! Or you will apostates from G-d!”
Denying the Trinity by no means denies Yeshua Hamoshiach or the One True Yahweh!
for one the trinity is man's doctrine forced from the bible using their own interpretation.when one does not give jesus any credit or will not acknolwdge who and what he did for man and accept him as one should, then that takes away from him. and you are demeaning him.
he died for us all so tht we can be sanctified before god, he taught and did works to give proof and examle. he preached and showed us how to, how to love and have compassion. if you take away any of what he had done, if you ignore ,deny or not accept you do demean him
are you implying i am a trinitarian? i sure am not!
are you trying to defend the catholic faith?
i hope not.
they bless and accept war.
the worship the cross
they worship the staue of mary
they use “father” as part of acknolwedgement to a religous leader. god said not too.
they worship trinity
Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 12 2009,20:24) peace2all wrote: Quote that what I’m saying. He was god's son in heaven before his arrival on earth. So to say god's son didn't pre exist is wrong.
Jesus is God’s Son because he never sinned even though he was tempted even as we are. I believe stating he is God’s Son is like stating he is God’s firstborn Son. I do not believe in Jesus’ preexistence as Jesus I believe that it is necessary for the fundamentals of faith that we believe Jesus is a human tempted in every way that we are but without sin.
peace2all wrote:
Quote he wasn't the messiah t oue of Christ until his baptism.
Messiah or Christ means Anointed One and I believe he has been anointed by the Holy Spirit at conception or at least sometime before birth. I am certainly not sure if that anointment is where he obtained his title.
peace2all wrote:
Quote he still was god's son first one cannot say his son was first created when in mary's womb
That is what scripture states by stating he was conceived in her womb. Conceived means formed. Scripture states he was formed and not just his body.
Like with Adam God formed his body and breathed life into him so that he became a living soul.
well the bible only mentions it after his baptism.scriptures show together that he was in heaven before coming to earth.
jesus,god's son,christ,michael, whatever you may use to his title or name or whatever , was in heaven before coming to earth
what don't you understand about the scriptures.
can't be apart of creating all if he wasn't there.
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Dec. 12 2009,21:38) Quote Banana wrote: Let me add my understanding of the subject. In John 17:5 Jesus tells us that He wants to go back to where He was before.
Now if He only was a thought or a plan in God's mind, He went back to that? Now that makes no sense.
He had a glory with the Father before He became a man.“The glory I had with you before the world was” John 17:5
What does the Bible mean when it speaks about “glory”?
The glory of 'Elohim was revealed to Moses at Sinai and what he heard was the declaration of 'Elohim’s Name or character, that Yahweh is a 'Elohim full of grace, mercy, truth, justice, judgment etc. Ex. 33:19; 34:6,7.
Yeshua HaMoshiach alludes to what happened at Sinai by saying that He has “glorified you. . . manifested your name” Jn. 17:4,6.
Whenever those characteristics of 'Elohim are recognized, manifested or openly shown, 'Elohim is glorified.
In this sense, 'Elohim is the “'Elohim of glory” Ps. 29:3 etc.
He is totally associated with His Name and characteristics, it’s not that He just shows those particular attributes to men, but He Himself personally is someone quite different.
He is His glory.
And this is why Jn. 17:5 parallels His glory with 'Elohim’s very own “self”.
That glory of 'Elohim was of course always with 'Elohim, right at the beginning of the world.
He hasn’t changed His essential characteristics over time.
The 'Elohim of the Old Testament is the same 'Elohim as in the New Testament.
As John begins his Gospel by saying, the essential “Word”, logos of 'Elohim, His essential plans, intentions, personality, was in the beginning with Him.
It was “made flesh” in the person of Yeshua HaMoshiach (Jn. 1:14), in that the Lord Yeshua HaMoshiach in His life and especially in His death on the cross revealed all those attributes and plans of 'Elohim in a concrete, visible form to perfection.
The request of Yeshua HaMoshiach to be glorified is therefore asking for the Name / attributes / characteristics / glory / word of 'Elohim to be openly revealed in Him.
Surely He had in mind His resurrection, and the glorifying of 'Elohim which would take place as a result of this being preached and believed in world wide.
But in what sense was this the glory which Yeshua HaMoshiach had with 'Elohim before the world was?
The “glory” of 'Elohim was revealed to Moses at Sinai in Ex. 34 as the declaration of His character.
In this sense, the Lord Yeshua HaMoshiach could speak of having in His mortal life “that glory which was with [the Father]” when the [Jewish] world came into existence at Sinai (Jn. 17:5 Ethiopic and Western Text).
It was that same glory which, like Moses, He reflected to men.
But according to 2 Cor. 3:18, the very experience of gazing upon the glory of His character will change us into a reflection of it.
There is something transforming about the very personality of Yeshua HaMoshiach.
And perhaps this is why we have such a psychological barrier to thinking about Him deeply.
We know that it has the power to transform and intrude into our innermost darkness.
There is essentially only one glory, the glory of the Son is a reflection or manifestation of the glory of the Father.
They may be seen as different glories only in the sense that the same glory is reflected from the Lord Yeshua HaMoshiach in His unique way; as a son reflects or articulates his father’s personality, it’s not a mirror personality, but it’s the same essence.
One star differs from another in glory, but they all reflect the same essential light of glory.
The Lord Yeshua HaMoshiach sought only the glory of the Father Jn. 7:18.
He spoke of 'Elohim’s glory as being the Son’s glory Jn. 11:4.
Thus Isaiah’s vision of 'Elohim’s glory is interpreted by John as a prophecy of the Son’s glory Jn. 12:41.
The glory of 'Elohim is His “own self”, His own personality and essence.
This was with 'Elohim of course from the ultimate beginning of all, and it was this glory which was manifested in both the death and glorification of the Lord Yeshua HaMoshiach Jn. 17:5.
The Old Testament title “'Elohim of glory” is applied to the Lord Yeshua HaMoshiach, “the Lord of glory” 1 Cor. 2:8; James 2:1.
It is 'Elohim’s glory which radiates from the face of Yeshua HaMoshiach 2 Cor. 4:6.
Yeshua HaMoshiach is the brightness of 'Elohim’s glory, because He is the express image of 'Elohim’s personality Heb. 1:3.
He received glory from 'Elohim’s glory 2 Pet. 1:17.
'Elohim is the “Father of glory”, the prime source of the one true glory, that is reflected both in the Lord Yeshua HaMoshiach and in ourselves Eph. 1:17.
The intimate relation of the Father's glory with that of the Son is brought out in Jn. 13:31,32: ” Now is the Son of man glorified, and 'Elohim is glorified in him; and 'Elohim shall glorify him in himself, and straightway shall he glorify him”.
What all this exposition means in practice is this.
There is only “one glory” of 'Elohim.
That glory refers to the essential “self”, the personality, characteristics, being etc.
The Lord Yeshua HaMoshiach manifested that glory in His mortal life Jn. 2:11.
But He manifests it now that He has been “glorified”, and will manifest it in the future day of His glory.
And the Lord was as in all things a pattern to us.
We are bidden follow in His path to glory.
We now in our personalities reflect and manifest the one glory of the Father, and our blessed Hope is glory in the future, to be glorified, to be persons who reflect and ‘are’ that glory in a more intimate and complete sense than we are now, marred as we are by our human dysfunction, sin, and weakness of will against temptation.
We now reflect that glory as in a dirty bronze mirror 2 Cor. 3:18.
The outline of 'Elohim’s glory in the face of Yeshua HaMoshiach is only dimly reflected in us.
But we are being changed, from glory to glory, the focus getting clearer all the time, until that great day when we meet Him and see Him face to face, with all that shall imply and result in.
But my point in this context is that there is only one glory.
That glory was with 'Elohim from the beginning.
Yeshua HaMoshiach was in the mind and plan of 'Elohim from the beginning.
It was 'Elohim’s original plan to resurrect and glorify and justify His Son.
And in Jn. 17:5, Yeshua HaMoshiach is asking that this will happen.
The glory which Yeshua HaMoshiach had “before the world was” is connected with the way that He was “foreordained before the foundation of the world” (1 Pet. 1:20), the way 'Elohim promised us eternal life (through His Son) before the world was Tit. 1:2.
2 Tim. 1:9 speaks of us as being called to salvation in Yeshua HaMoshiach “before the world began”, He “chose us in Him before the foundation of the world” Eph. 1:4.
In the same way as we didn’t personally exist before the world began, neither did Yeshua HaMoshiach.
Indeed 1 Cor. 2:7 speaks of us having some form of glory with 'Elohim “before the world began”.
It’s the idea of this “one glory” again, '
;Elohim’s glory existed, and it was His plan to share it with His Son and with us; and He speaks of those things which are not as though they are, so certain are they of fulfilment Rom. 4:17.In Jn. 17:5, the Lord Yeshua HaMoshiach is ‘pleading the promise’ of these things.
your using your own ideas and thoughts and outcome to what it clearly says.this subject is not hard to undrstand from the bibles answer when you read it.
there is no way you need to try t otake it out of context.
if it says he was the firstborn and that he as beside god before al was created, and after that was made he was like a master craftman
it can't get any simpler for you.
how and why you feel the need to twist it is and make up a interpretation is beyond me.
answer this to yourself :
if you need to make your own interpretaion t oa answer in the bible that reisant with sound idea thorugh many verses. then yuor foundation of beleif on tha subject is obiously incorrect.
To All……….logoslogic, kerwin, con , martian, …………all have spoken the truth concerning Jesus' Preexistences. Simple logic would tell you if John meant Jesus in John 1:1, he simply would have written Jesus there. IMO The doctrine of preexistence is Just as bad a the doctrine of the Trinity they go hand and hand, leading people into false understandings of scriptures. IMO
gene
Quote (Gene @ Dec. 13 2009,02:36) To All……….logoslogic, kerwin, con , martian, …………all have spoken the truth concerning Jesus' Preexistences. Simple logic would tell you if John meant Jesus in John 1:1, he simply would have written Jesus there. IMO The doctrine of preexistence is Just as bad a the doctrine of the Trinity they go hand and hand, leading people into false understandings of scriptures. IMO gene
exactly – its all your opinions and not the message given from the bible.use the scriptures and teh message it tells , not your opinions.
if it was only one scripture pertaining to this topic then it would be practically impossible to know what is correct.
however there are more than one that talk about god's son in heaven with his father before all tings were made.
if he wasn't, then how could he have from god through himself create all things.
you opinons are flawed when used with all the scriptures in topic. the message is not resinant with your opinions.
same thing through all time, man using there opinions and views instead of god's
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