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Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 05 2009,10:43) We are brothers by adoption and not by nature. Sorry if this disappoints you. thinker
Have you not read that we can partake in divine nature?If you can accept this, does that make us God too, according to your theology?
An adopted son is given all things just like the natural son. Also, I don't think the Jews are adopted. Might be wrong about that though. Would need time to look at the scriptures to say for sure.
Thinker……..Paul was contrasting the (ADMINISTRATIONS) the OLD AGAINST THE NEW (COVENANTS) is the issue (COVENANTS) GOD HIMSELF WAS MAKING WITH US. The GLORY of a person was not the point Paul was driving at, but the (ADMINISTRATIONS) OF THEM. One operated one way through the flesh, and was glorious and another operated another way through the Spirit and was more glorious , one was fading away the other remains for ever and has far exceeding promises of eternal life. Your trying to make about Persons and it is not about persons but about (COVENANTS). IMO
gene
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 05 2009,12:54) Hi TT,
Baptism in the name of Jesus is of the way of Jesus.
Are you greater than him?
The Father seeks those who worship Him in the spirit. Baptism was on it way out when Hebrews was written (6:1-3). It was only a temporary ordinance.thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 03 2009,12:20) Marty said: Quote Does God have to be justified in the Spirit? A sinless man does not have to be justified in the spirit. Jesus was a sinless man. Therefore, He didn't have to be justified in the spirit.
Think it through Marty. Jesus needed to be justified in the spirit because He bore the sins of the world. It was only as our sin-bearer that He would even need to be justified in the spirit. And only God could take the sins of all mankind upon Himsef. Therefore, God would have to be justified in the spirit.
thinker
Hi thethinker:This is what the scripture states:
Quote Hbr 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;Quote Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Rom 1:4 And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:Jesus was tempted in every way but obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross, and therefore, the scriptures state that he was justified in the Spirit. He could have sinned, but he did not.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (thethinker @ Oct. 05 2009,11:10) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 04 2009,08:32) Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 04 2009,05:06) Quote (Gene @ Oct. 04 2009,03:27) CA………..until we grow unto the (FULL) measure of Christ is says not part measure as you think. T8 is right , God the FATHER is very able to bring us unto the (FULL) measure of Christ. Again your Trinitarian dogmas are twisting the words of GOD. Just another attempt at mudding the waters of truth. gene
Gene,
Uh, we have already been brought into the full measure of the stature of Christ. The proof is that we don't offer animal sacrifices or keep the Mosaic rituals any more. Get a better handle on the scriptures dude! We are now the “mature man” as opposed to the old covenant “child.”thinker
Yes, you could argue that this is how we differ from the Old Covenant.But this is not fully accomplished in us until we are perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect. We need to under-go final theosis. We need more than to be “justified”. We need to be “sanctified”. Our character needs a complete overhaul to conform to that of Christ. This does not happen overnight.
CA,
I could not disagree with you more. According to Paul the change is one from the image to Moses to the image of Christ. It is a change from being worshipers according to the letter of the law to becoming worshipers according to the spirit of the law.2 Corinthians 3:7-18:
Quote 7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.
12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech— 13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. 15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. 16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.Paul contrasts the glory of Moses (the letter) with the glory of Christ (the spirit of the law). Then in verse 12 he said that their “hope” was to be changed in image from the lesser glory of Moses to the greater glory of Christ.
In other words, those who have been conformed to the image of Christ and have reached the “full measure” of Christ are those who worship God in spirit and not according to the letter of the law. Paul calls this having achieved the greatest glory.
The Catholic Church has not achieved this because they still observe some old covenant rituals like baptism. Protestant churches have failed to attain this too. Jehovah's Witness churches hold on to old covenant stuff like not giving blood transfusions. To the extent God's people continue to worship according to the letter is to the extent they are still in the image of Moses and not Christ.
Again, one who has been fully conformed to the image of Christ will necessarily worship God in spirit ALONE. Paul said that when he was a child [under the law] he spoke as a child, understood as a child and thought as a child. But when he became a man [under the new covenant] he put away childish things.
The “mature man ” is the saint who lives according to God's new covenant principles. Attaining the “full stature of Christ” involves worshiping god according to the spirit.
thinker
TT,I'm a bit surprised that you read into this text (2 Cor 3:7-18) something that is not there.
But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.[/color]
“we all”…St. Paul is including himself. “being transformed” speaks of a process.
Our life here is a process of sanctification or reprobation.
Quote (942767 @ Oct. 06 2009,09:21) Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 03 2009,12:20) Marty said: Quote Does God have to be justified in the Spirit? A sinless man does not have to be justified in the spirit. Jesus was a sinless man. Therefore, He didn't have to be justified in the spirit.
Think it through Marty. Jesus needed to be justified in the spirit because He bore the sins of the world. It was only as our sin-bearer that He would even need to be justified in the spirit. And only God could take the sins of all mankind upon Himsef. Therefore, God would have to be justified in the spirit.
thinker
Hi thethinker:This is what the scripture states:
Quote Hbr 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;Quote Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Rom 1:4 And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:Jesus was tempted in every way but obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross, and therefore, the scriptures state that he was justified in the Spirit. He could have sinned, but he did not.
Love in Christ,
Marty
He did not sin. A sinless man does not need to be justified. Jesus was justified because he bore our sins. It simply means that His sacrifice was accepted. That's all.thnker
Hi CA,
The Spirit of God sanctifies those who have become a temple for the God of Israel.
But you must be cleansed and reborn of that Spirit.CA said:
Quote TT, I'm a bit surprised that you read into this text (2 Cor 3:7-18) something that is not there.
But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.[/color]
“we all”…St. Paul is including himself. “being transformed” speaks of a process.
Our life here is a process of sanctification or reprobation.
CA,
The lesser “glory” was that of Moses. The greater “glory” was that of Christ. So to be changed into the same image from glory to glory is to be changed from the image of Moses to the image of Christ. It means that we live according to the spirit and not the letter. You say that we need to be sanctified. Paul taught that sanctification cannot come by the letter (Moses). It comes by the spirit (Christ). The one who lives according to the spirit is the “mature man” who is in the image of Christ. The one who continues with the letter is the “child” who cannot be sanctified. He cannot be sanctified because “the letter killeth.”Let's not put the cart before the horse. Paul said that we all would come into the unity of the faith unto a “mature man”, that is, the “man” who operates on the spirit level.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 06 2009,12:52) CA said: Quote TT, I'm a bit surprised that you read into this text (2 Cor 3:7-18) something that is not there.
But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.[/color]
“we all”…St. Paul is including himself. “being transformed” speaks of a process.
Our life here is a process of sanctification or reprobation.
CA,
The lesser “glory” was that of Moses. The greater “glory” was that of Christ. So to be changed into the same image from glory to glory is to be changed from the image of Moses to the image of Christ. It means that we live according to the spirit and not the letter. You say that we need to be sanctified. Paul taught that sanctification cannot come by the letter (Moses). It comes by the spirit (Christ). The one who lives according to the spirit is the “mature man” who is in the image of Christ. The one who continues with the letter is the “child” who cannot be sanctified. He cannot be sanctified because “the letter killeth.”Let's not put the cart before the horse. Paul said that we all would come into the unity of the faith unto a “mature man”, that is, the “man” who operates on the spirit level.
thinker
thinker you need to come out of the understanding of the trinity, before you even worship in Spirit and in Truth.
Math. 15:9
Rev. 18:4
Peace and Love IreneQuote (thethinker @ Oct. 06 2009,12:52) CA said: Quote TT, I'm a bit surprised that you read into this text (2 Cor 3:7-18) something that is not there.
But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.[/color]
“we all”…St. Paul is including himself. “being transformed” speaks of a process.
Our life here is a process of sanctification or reprobation.
CA,
The lesser “glory” was that of Moses. The greater “glory” was that of Christ. So to be changed into the same image from glory to glory is to be changed from the image of Moses to the image of Christ. It means that we live according to the spirit and not the letter. You say that we need to be sanctified. Paul taught that sanctification cannot come by the letter (Moses). It comes by the spirit (Christ). The one who lives according to the spirit is the “mature man” who is in the image of Christ. The one who continues with the letter is the “child” who cannot be sanctified. He cannot be sanctified because “the letter killeth.”Let's not put the cart before the horse. Paul said that we all would come into the unity of the faith unto a “mature man”, that is, the “man” who operates on the spirit level.
thinker
I'm not contending here for the Mosaic letter. I'm not speaking in diminishment of the Spirit's role. I'm merely saying that New Covenant sanctification is a process culminating at our glorification whether at the hour of our death or release from the place of purification.“All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. The Church gives the name purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned” (CCC 1030–1)
Nothing impure enters heaven. (Apoc. 21:27)
Just men must be made perfect. (Heb. 12:23)
Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 06 2009,12:36) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 06 2009,09:21) Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 03 2009,12:20) Marty said: Quote Does God have to be justified in the Spirit? A sinless man does not have to be justified in the spirit. Jesus was a sinless man. Therefore, He didn't have to be justified in the spirit.
Think it through Marty. Jesus needed to be justified in the spirit because He bore the sins of the world. It was only as our sin-bearer that He would even need to be justified in the spirit. And only God could take the sins of all mankind upon Himsef. Therefore, God would have to be justified in the spirit.
thinker
Hi thethinker:This is what the scripture states:
Quote Hbr 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;Quote Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Rom 1:4 And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:Jesus was tempted in every way but obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross, and therefore, the scriptures state that he was justified in the Spirit. He could have sinned, but he did not.
Love in Christ,
Marty
He did not sin. A sinless man does not need to be justified. Jesus was justified because he bore our sins. It simply means that His sacrifice was accepted. That's all.thnker
Hi Thethinker:The scripture that which we started said someone was justified in the Spirit.
And so, to whom do you think that it applies?
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Oct. 06 2009,16:06) Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 06 2009,12:36) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 06 2009,09:21) Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 03 2009,12:20) Marty said: Quote Does God have to be justified in the Spirit? A sinless man does not have to be justified in the spirit. Jesus was a sinless man. Therefore, He didn't have to be justified in the spirit.
Think it through Marty. Jesus needed to be justified in the spirit because He bore the sins of the world. It was only as our sin-bearer that He would even need to be justified in the spirit. And only God could take the sins of all mankind upon Himsef. Therefore, God would have to be justified in the spirit.
thinker
Hi thethinker:This is what the scripture states:
Quote Hbr 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;Quote Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Rom 1:4 And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:Jesus was tempted in every way but obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross, and therefore, the scriptures state that he was justified in the Spirit. He could have sinned, but he did not.
Love in Christ,
Marty
He did not sin. A sinless man does not need to be justified. Jesus was justified because he bore our sins. It simply means that His sacrifice was accepted. That's all.thnker
Hi Thethinker:The scripture that which we started said someone was justified in the Spirit.
And so, to whom do you think that it applies?
Love in Christ,
Marty
It is so sad to see you study Scripture as though you were on an archeological expedition.If you would just ask the church that wrote these things, you would get answers that could provide certitude and assurance.
Hi CA,
Should we join the queue to hear from your new king?
Your church is a sad imitation of the kingdom.Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 06 2009,13:50) Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 06 2009,12:52) CA said: Quote TT, I'm a bit surprised that you read into this text (2 Cor 3:7-18) something that is not there.
But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.[/color]
“we all”…St. Paul is including himself. “being transformed” speaks of a process.
Our life here is a process of sanctification or reprobation.
CA,
The lesser “glory” was that of Moses. The greater “glory” was that of Christ. So to be changed into the same image from glory to glory is to be changed from the image of Moses to the image of Christ. It means that we live according to the spirit and not the letter. You say that we need to be sanctified. Paul taught that sanctification cannot come by the letter (Moses). It comes by the spirit (Christ). The one who lives according to the spirit is the “mature man” who is in the image of Christ. The one who continues with the letter is the “child” who cannot be sanctified. He cannot be sanctified because “the letter killeth.”Let's not put the cart before the horse. Paul said that we all would come into the unity of the faith unto a “mature man”, that is, the “man” who operates on the spirit level.
thinker
I'm not contending here for the Mosaic letter. I'm not speaking in diminishment of the Spirit's role. I'm merely saying that New Covenant sanctification is a process culminating at our glorification whether at the hour of our death or release from the place of purification.“All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. The Church gives the name purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned” (CCC 1030–1)
Nothing impure enters heaven. (Apoc. 21:27)
Just men must be made perfect. (Heb. 12:23)
Paul was not talking about the Spirit's role. He was speaking about the spirit level. You know like, the “spirit” of the U.S. Constitution which makes it a living and applicable document? Paul was talking about the “spirit” of the law. Being in the image of Christ has to do with keeping the law in the spirit and not the letter.thinker
Hi CA,
You offer
“All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. The Church gives the name purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned” (CCC 1030–1)”
You believe this stuff?
Purgatory will clean up and polish the unsaved in catholicism and they will be saved?A fine imagination.
But then you invented LIMBO too.Quote (942767 @ Oct. 06 2009,16:06) Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 06 2009,12:36) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 06 2009,09:21) Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 03 2009,12:20) Marty said: Quote Does God have to be justified in the Spirit? A sinless man does not have to be justified in the spirit. Jesus was a sinless man. Therefore, He didn't have to be justified in the spirit.
Think it through Marty. Jesus needed to be justified in the spirit because He bore the sins of the world. It was only as our sin-bearer that He would even need to be justified in the spirit. And only God could take the sins of all mankind upon Himsef. Therefore, God would have to be justified in the spirit.
thinker
Hi thethinker:This is what the scripture states:
Quote Hbr 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;Quote Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Rom 1:4 And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:Jesus was tempted in every way but obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross, and therefore, the scriptures state that he was justified in the Spirit. He could have sinned, but he did not.
Love in Christ,
Marty
He did not sin. A sinless man does not need to be justified. Jesus was justified because he bore our sins. It simply means that His sacrifice was accepted. That's all.thnker
Hi Thethinker:The scripture that which we started said someone was justified in the Spirit.
And so, to whom do you think that it applies?
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,
Is what I am saying all that difficult for you? It was Jesus who was justified but not on His own account. He was sinless and so He did not need justifiaction. It was on account of our sins that He was justified.So your argument that He could not have been God because God need not be justified fails because a sinless man need not be justified. Therefore, justification in reference to Him simply means that His sacrifice was accepted. Geez. And you want to be a leader?
thinker
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