JOHN 1:1 who is the WORD?

[Is 1:18]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 03 2009,11:52)

Hi Paul! Good to see you again.  Hope the family is doing well. I've been doing quite a bit of back reading of your debates and posts.  I've been making notes of my questions – I was going to PM you at some point. Take care, Mandy

Hello again my friend,
Yes the family is doing very well thanks, actually we're about to expand – #4 due in just over 2 months! Look forward to reading the PM.

Blessings
Paul

[KangarooJack]

Marty said:

Quote

Does God have to be justified in the Spirit?

A sinless man does not have to be justified in the spirit. Jesus was a sinless man. Therefore, He didn't have to be justified in the spirit.

Think it through Marty. Jesus needed to be justified in the spirit because He bore the sins of the world. It was only as our sin-bearer that He would even need to be justified in the spirit. And only God could take the sins of all mankind upon Himsef. Therefore, God would have to be justified in the spirit.

thinker

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Oct. 02 2009,19:44)

Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 30 2009,14:00) t8 said: Quote Please tell WJ what you just said, that all instances of theos or elohim are not always in reference to the Most High God. And that sometimes they are in reference to being rulers or magistrates. WJ says that they are only in reference to false gods or the true God and this reasoning leads him to believe that Jesus is God as he couldn't be a false god. He is wrong about that and you obviously agree. t8, You have been saying that there are lesser “deities” (or gods) in addition to God. I was refuting YOU. WJ is correct that there are no other deities of any kind lesser or greater. Jesus is God because “in Him dwells all the fulness of the THEOTOKOS bodily” (Colossians 2:9) You have said also that because men partake of the divine nature this makes them deities and that they will become gods. But the divine nature has to do with God's communicable attributes such as love, mercy, kindness, patience, longsuffering, etc., etc. Had you taken just one Systematic Theology course you would know this. Men may partake of the divine nature but they cannot partake of the divine form. Paul explicitly said that Jesus existed in the form of God. Therefore, He was God. Jesus told the Jews that they had not seen God's form (John 5:37). But they had seen the divine nature. So your idea that men become deities or gods because they partake of the divine nature is fallacious. WJ and all can see that you have twisted what I said. thinker Excellent post. A+

Hi Paul

Good to see you back! Hope you and yours are doing well!

WJ

[Is 1:18]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 03 2009,12:32)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Oct. 02 2009,19:44) Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 30 2009,14:00) t8 said: Quote Please tell WJ what you just said, that all instances of theos or elohim are not always in reference to the Most High God. And that sometimes they are in reference to being rulers or magistrates. WJ says that they are only in reference to false gods or the true God and this reasoning leads him to believe that Jesus is God as he couldn't be a false god. He is wrong about that and you obviously agree. t8, You have been saying that there are lesser “deities” (or gods) in addition to God. I was refuting YOU. WJ is correct that there are no other deities of any kind lesser or greater. Jesus is God because “in Him dwells all the fulness of the THEOTOKOS bodily” (Colossians 2:9) You have said also that because men partake of the divine nature this makes them deities and that they will become gods. But the divine nature has to do with God's communicable attributes such as love, mercy, kindness, patience, longsuffering, etc., etc. Had you taken just one Systematic Theology course you would know this. Men may partake of the divine nature but they cannot partake of the divine form. Paul explicitly said that Jesus existed in the form of God. Therefore, He was God. Jesus told the Jews that they had not seen God's form (John 5:37). But they had seen the divine nature. So your idea that men become deities or gods because they partake of the divine nature is fallacious. WJ and all can see that you have twisted what I said. thinker Excellent post. A+ Hi Paul Good to see you back! Hope you and yours are doing well! WJ

Hey WJ,
You know I wrote you a small PM on Facebook, have you read it?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Oct. 02 2009,20:07)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 03 2009,11:52) Hi Paul! Good to see you again.  Hope the family is doing well. I've been doing quite a bit of back reading of your debates and posts.  I've been making notes of my questions – I was going to PM you at some point. Take care, Mandy Hello again my friend, Yes the family is doing very well thanks, actually we're about to expand – #4 due in just over 2 months! Look forward to reading the PM. Blessings Paul

Hi Paul

Cograts on the New anticipated arrival!

Don't forget to create his/hers nursery “by” or “through' him or her!  

Inside joke!

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Oct. 02 2009,20:35)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 03 2009,12:32) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Oct. 02 2009,19:44) Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 30 2009,14:00) t8 said: Quote Please tell WJ what you just said, that all instances of theos or elohim are not always in reference to the Most High God. And that sometimes they are in reference to being rulers or magistrates. WJ says that they are only in reference to false gods or the true God and this reasoning leads him to believe that Jesus is God as he couldn't be a false god. He is wrong about that and you obviously agree. t8, You have been saying that there are lesser “deities” (or gods) in addition to God. I was refuting YOU. WJ is correct that there are no other deities of any kind lesser or greater. Jesus is God because “in Him dwells all the fulness of the THEOTOKOS bodily” (Colossians 2:9) You have said also that because men partake of the divine nature this makes them deities and that they will become gods. But the divine nature has to do with God's communicable attributes such as love, mercy, kindness, patience, longsuffering, etc., etc. Had you taken just one Systematic Theology course you would know this. Men may partake of the divine nature but they cannot partake of the divine form. Paul explicitly said that Jesus existed in the form of God. Therefore, He was God. Jesus told the Jews that they had not seen God's form (John 5:37). But they had seen the divine nature. So your idea that men become deities or gods because they partake of the divine nature is fallacious. WJ and all can see that you have twisted what I said. thinker Excellent post. A+ Hi Paul Good to see you back! Hope you and yours are doing well! WJ Hey WJ, You know I wrote you a small PM on Facebook, have you read it?

Yea I got two from you.

Was it recent? I just checked and seen where you were trying to chat and I didnt see you were there!

[Is 1:18]

Yeah, that was about an hour ago, I left and came here. I guess you did too.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 03 2009,11:50)

“A person does not give birth to a nature only, but a whole person. You cannot separate Jesus' humanity from His divinity like the gnostics and later the Arians. This is what we were fighting all of those years ago in the first centuries of the Church. Theotokos (God-bearer) was a statement primarily about the divinity of Christ and secondarily about Mary. Nestorius was accused of wanting to make the distinction you are claiming here. But the two natures of Christ (human and divine) are perfectly united in one Person. Jesus is fully man and fully God. You cannot separate the two in Him.”

Scripture says that we will be like him and he will call us brothers. It also says that what we will become is a mystery, so it appears that the RCC must have since received the full revelation. But even in that unbelievable circumstance, you still have to contend with the fact that we will be like him and he will call us brothers.

So that would make us man and God too.

I don't buy it. I am already sold on what scripture says about this subject, and I hope that all believers could say the same thing.

[Catholic Apologist]

Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 03 2009,12:20)

Marty said: Quote Does God have to be justified in the Spirit? A sinless man does not have to be justified in the spirit. Jesus was a sinless man. Therefore, He didn't have to be justified in the spirit. Think it through Marty. Jesus needed to be justified in the spirit because He bore the sins of the world. It was only as our sin-bearer that He would even need to be justified in the spirit. And only God could take the sins of all mankind upon Himsef. Therefore, God would have to be justified in the spirit. thinker

Haydock's Commentary on 1 Tim. 3:16:

Ver. 16. Mystery of piety, meaning the mystery of the incarnation of the Son of God: and so in most Greek copies, and in St. Chrysostom we read, God appeared in the flesh.[6] — Taken up into glory, by Christ's glorious ascension into heaven. (Witham) — After having spoken of the grandeur and infallibility of the Church, the apostle takes occasion from it to extol the great mystery of love, the incarnation and redemption of man. By this mystery the Second Person of the blessed Trinity became manifested in the flesh, justifying or proving his divinity by the virtue of the Holy Spirit appearing in his miracles, made known to the Angels, who were his messengers to bear the tidings to man, or assisting spirits to wait upon him, as at the nativity, in the desert, the agony, &c. preached to the world, and at length consummated to the world by his ascension into glory. (Calmet and others)

Notice:

“justifying or proving his divinity by the virtue of the Holy Spirit appearing in his miracles”

[Catholic Apologist]

Quote (t8 @ Oct. 03 2009,17:58)

Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 03 2009,11:50) “A person does not give birth to a nature only, but a whole person.  You cannot separate Jesus' humanity from His divinity like the gnostics and later the Arians.  This is what we were fighting all of those years ago in the first centuries of the Church.  Theotokos (God-bearer) was a statement primarily about the divinity of Christ and secondarily about Mary.  Nestorius was accused of wanting to make the distinction you are claiming here.  But the two natures of Christ (human and divine) are perfectly united in one Person.  Jesus is fully man and fully God.  You cannot separate the two in Him.” Scripture says that we will be like him and he will call us brothers. It also says that what we will become is a mystery, so it appears that the RCC must have since received the full revelation. But even in that unbelievable circumstance, you still have to contend with the fact that we will be like him and he will call us brothers. So that would make us man and God too. I don't buy it. I am already sold on what scripture says about this subject, and I hope that all believers could say the same thing.

All true believers DO say the same thing. You should become a true believer. (It's too bad that I have to clarify here for some that by “say the same thing” I am speaking of infallibly defined dogma and not about areas of permitted disagreement within the Church)

Quote

you still have to contend with the fact that we will be like him

Yeah, I know that the NT writers can't have the liberty with you to mean anything but what you demand they mean. You're in charge, eh? So was Korah….well he thought he was.

Have you ever considered that this passage does not say “like him in every way”? We even use this type of language today. A man may say to a woman that he has something in common with “you are like me”. Does that make him a woman? Is he lying to her?

Give me a break.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Oct. 03 2009,12:07)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 03 2009,11:52) Hi Paul! Good to see you again.  Hope the family is doing well. I've been doing quite a bit of back reading of your debates and posts.  I've been making notes of my questions – I was going to PM you at some point. Take care, Mandy Hello again my friend, Yes the family is doing very well thanks, actually we're about to expand – #4 due in just over 2 months! Look forward to reading the PM. Blessings Paul

Tell me you've got your little girl this time…..

If not, keep trying! Your boys are adorable (how could they not be?).

Love,
Mandy

[KangarooJack]

t8 said:

Quote

you still have to contend with the fact that we will be like him

Except for God's form.

thinker

[GeneBalthrop]

CA………..until we grow unto the (FULL) measure of Christ is says not part measure as you think. T8 is right , God the FATHER is very able to bring us unto the (FULL) measure of Christ. Again your Trinitarian dogmas are twisting the words of GOD. Just another attempt at mudding the waters of truth.

gene

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Gene @ Oct. 04 2009,03:27)

CA………..until we grow unto the (FULL) measure of Christ is says not part measure as you think.  T8 is right , God the FATHER is very able to bring us unto the (FULL) measure of Christ. Again your Trinitarian dogmas are twisting the words of GOD. Just another attempt at mudding the waters of truth. gene

Gene,
Uh, we have already been brought into the full measure of the stature of Christ. The proof is that we don't offer animal sacrifices or keep the Mosaic rituals any more. Get a better handle on the scriptures dude! We are now the “mature man” as opposed to the old covenant “child.”

thinker

[Catholic Apologist]

Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 04 2009,05:06)

Quote (Gene @ Oct. 04 2009,03:27) CA………..until we grow unto the (FULL) measure of Christ is says not part measure as you think.  T8 is right , God the FATHER is very able to bring us unto the (FULL) measure of Christ. Again your Trinitarian dogmas are twisting the words of GOD. Just another attempt at mudding the waters of truth. gene Gene, Uh, we have already been brought into the full measure of the stature of Christ. The proof is that we don't offer animal sacrifices or keep the Mosaic rituals any more. Get a better handle on the scriptures dude! We are now the “mature man” as opposed to the old covenant “child.” thinker

Yes, you could argue that this is how we differ from the Old Covenant.

But this is not fully accomplished in us until we are perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect. We need to under-go final theosis. We need more than to be “justified”. We need to be “sanctified”. Our character needs a complete overhaul to conform to that of Christ. This does not happen overnight.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 03 2009,20:36)

t8 said: Quote you still have to contend with the fact that we will be like him Except for God's form. thinker

Jesus calls us brothers, so we will be like him.
We will be like kind.

It is a promise and something to greatly look forward to.

This whole God/Man/Trinity thing is pointless. I prefer to be taught by the original apostles, Paul, and Christ. Not the likes of Athanasius and Constantine.

[GeneBalthrop]

Thinker………WE have not yet come into the (FULL) measure of Christ, WE are Joint (heirs) with Him but we have not recieved our inheritance yet, of eternal life and were are not yet perfected as He is. No we still have a ways to go to be perfected . IMO

gene

[KangarooJack]

Quote (t8 @ Oct. 04 2009,09:58)

Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 03 2009,20:36) t8 said: Quote you still have to contend with the fact that we will be like him Except for God's form. thinker Jesus calls us brothers, so we will be like him. We will be like kind. It is a promise and something to greatly look forward to. This whole God/Man/Trinity thing is pointless. I prefer to be taught by the original apostles, Paul, and Christ. Not the likes of Athanasius and Constantine.

We are brothers by adoption and not by nature. Sorry if this disappoints you.

thinker

[NickHassan]

Hi TT,
He is not ashamed to call us brothers but you are?

[KangarooJack]

Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 04 2009,08:32)

Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 04 2009,05:06) Quote (Gene @ Oct. 04 2009,03:27) CA………..until we grow unto the (FULL) measure of Christ is says not part measure as you think.  T8 is right , God the FATHER is very able to bring us unto the (FULL) measure of Christ. Again your Trinitarian dogmas are twisting the words of GOD. Just another attempt at mudding the waters of truth. gene Gene, Uh, we have already been brought into the full measure of the stature of Christ. The proof is that we don't offer animal sacrifices or keep the Mosaic rituals any more. Get a better handle on the scriptures dude! We are now the “mature man” as opposed to the old covenant “child.” thinker Yes, you could argue that this is how we differ from the Old Covenant. But this is not fully accomplished in us until we are perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect.  We need to under-go final theosis.  We need more than to be “justified”.  We need to be “sanctified”.  Our character needs a complete overhaul to conform to that of Christ.  This does not happen overnight.

CA,
I could not disagree with you more. According to Paul the change is one from the image to Moses to the image of Christ. It is a change from being worshipers according to the letter of the law to becoming worshipers according to the spirit of the law.

2 Corinthians 3:7-18:

Quote

7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious. 12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech— 13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. 15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. 16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Paul contrasts the glory of Moses (the letter) with the glory of Christ (the spirit of the law). Then in verse 12 he said that their “hope” was to be changed in image from the lesser glory of Moses to the greater glory of Christ.

In other words, those who have been conformed to the image of Christ and have reached the “full measure” of Christ are those who worship God in spirit and not according to the letter of the law. Paul calls this having achieved the greatest glory.

The Catholic Church has not achieved this because they still observe some old covenant rituals like baptism. Protestant churches have failed to attain this too. Jehovah's Witness churches hold on to old covenant stuff like not giving blood transfusions. To the extent God's people continue to worship according to the letter is to the extent they are still in the image of Moses and not Christ.

Again, one who has been fully conformed to the image of Christ will necessarily worship God in spirit ALONE. Paul said that when he was a child [under the law] he spoke as a child, understood as a child and thought as a child. But when he became a man [under the new covenant] he put away childish things.

The “mature man ” is the saint who lives according to God's new covenant principles. Attaining the “full stature of Christ” involves worshiping god according to the spirit.

thinker

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