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Quote (malcolm ferris @ May 28 2006,10:29) The Holy Spirit is the Father of Jesus Christ – they are one and the same Spirit.
Hi Malcolm,
When a father begets a son they do not have the same spirit.The spirit of each is utterly individual and separate and returns to God at death.
That is why a son is a son and not the result of a propagation of a colony of cells on an agar plate.
Neither is the Son of God a clone of God, but an image.
Scripture says that the Son was given to have life in himself.
Because he is derived from God alone does not mean we should assume he is not a son but a portion of God with no differences between them.
You do not have the spirit of Adam, or even your father but your own surely.
Quote When a father begets a son they do not have the same spirit. As I have been saying all along, the lifestream – the life is the same as shown by the name that is carried on to signify the lineage, the bloodline as it were (the life being in the blood)
Quote The spirit of each is utterly individual and separate and returns to God at death. Don't forget that death was not in the original picture.
Quote That is why a son is a son and not the result of a propagation of a colony of cells on an agar plate.
Neither is the Son of God a clone of God, but an image.That is right.
Quote Scripture says that the Son was given to have life in himself. As any son of any father has – life to produce of himself a family – yet that family is also the father of that son's lineage. Also Adam had life in himself, out of which God took a helpmate – Eve…
Quote Because he is derived from God alone does not mean we should assume he is not a son but a portion of God with no differences between them. I did not say he was not a son, he is a son, where did I say he was not a son?
Quote You do not have the spirit of Adam, or even your father but your own surely. The life of Adam – which life is the spirit of mortal man that dies because of the curse of the earth. Adam could have come to the tree of life and lived eternally, but this process was interrupted by the transgression and its penalty of death. Because of Adam we sons of God find ourselves in a fallen condition, a sinful nature that is contrary to God. We became sons of Adam and inheritors of his curse.
Hi Malcolm,
So you say the Word is “The Spirit of God in the son of God” and this union was from the beginning? When did this union come about?
Where is it written?
Or is it not true union by your definition union between two beings?
Is not the definition of a being is that it has life in itself?
Do not two beings have to each have a spirit of their own?
Did the Son ever have independant life at all?
Did he never have his own spirit but only the Spirit of God?
Was his life always shared life?
Does God not give without repentance?
Did the Son never really have choices?If he was always sharing the Spirit of God with the Father was he ever a true son and was the Father ever a true father?
Quote So you say the Word is “The Spirit of God in the son of God” and this union was from the beginning? When did this union come about? No, that is not what I am saying.
I am saying that:1: like begets like (Gen 1:11)
Jesus the Son of God is Word.
God is Word.2: what we have revealed by God in His Word is – Father and Son. (2 Jn 9)
So that is what I see – Father (God) Eternal – Immortal – Invisible – Only Wise (1 Tim 1:17)
And His begotten Son – the visible image of the invisible God. (Col 1:15)3: God indwelled the Son, the son who is Word, has the life of God to be a Son.
God indwelling His Son as a tabernacle, a house, a body, a visible form for the invisible God.Quote Where is it written?
Or is it not true union by your definition union between two beings?The unity is that spoken of in Heb 2:11 one life – even as Jesus said he and his Father were one. Not literally one, as in one being, but in a unity of life and of purpose.
Quote Is not the definition of a being is that it has life in itself? Do you really think that is what Jesus is saying here – that would be stating the obvious: that His Father is alive and hence he also is alive is a being with life?
That would seem to me to be a bit of a lame statement to make.Quote Do not two beings have to each have a spirit of their own? Do two human beings both have the life of human being, the spirit of man?
Quote Did the Son ever have independant life at all? You are really not understanding what I have been saying I think, the son from his begettal had independent life. If he is the son of God then he is life separate from God. Yet he chose to be subject and dependant upon his Father.
Quote Did he never have his own spirit but only the Spirit of God? Once again it is the understanding of lifesource and lifestream that explains this. If a father (the lifesource) has his own life (his own spirit of life) and he has a son then the son (lifestream) has the same kind of life as his father but not to manifest an identical person, the lifestream is a unique individual with the same life of the fathers kind in him (gen 1:11)
His father's genes are in him.Quote Was his life always shared life? Shared life? God's life – eternal life is what all the members of the family have.
Quote Does God not give without repentance? You know the answer to that one – of course not – we need a change of mind – to have a nature change – to be reborn by His Spirit.
Quote Did the Son never really have choices? Of course he did, and he proved Genesis 1:11 to be correct, he was true to that life of the Word that was in him, as all sons are.
Hi Malcolm,
Heb 2.10f
“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the founadation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of your hands; they will perish but you remain, and they will become old like a garment, and like a mantle you will roll them up. Like a garment they will also be changed, but you are the same, and your years will not come to an end”So the role of Jesus in the godly work is creation is revealed. The scrolling up of the heavens in Rev 6.14 and the burning up and renewing of the heavens and earth also [rev 21], while Christ is eternal.
2Jn 9
“Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God;the one who abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son”
The fruit of abiding in the Word is evidence of the indwelling of the Spirit of God which is the Spirit of Christ. This does not say both the Father and the Son ARE the Word of God.[1jn 2.5,2.14,2.20-24,3.24]Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2006,11:34) Hi Malcolm,
Heb 2.10f
“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the founadation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of your hands; they will perish but you remain, and they will become old like a garment, and like a mantle you will roll them up. Like a garment they will also be changed, but you are the same, and your years will not come to an end”So the role of Jesus in the godly work is creation is revealed. The scrolling up of the heavens in Rev 6.14 and the burning up and renewing of the heavens and earth also [rev 21], while Christ is eternal.
2Jn 9
“Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God;the one who abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son”
The fruit of abiding in the Word is evidence of the indwelling of the Spirit of God which is the Spirit of Christ. This does not say both the Father and the Son ARE the Word of God.[1jn 2.5,2.14,2.20-24,3.24]
That scripture tells me he who has the revelation of Jesus Christ has both the Father and the Son. The Revelation of God through His son – shows us Father and Son.I agree that the Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of God, It is God the Great Spirit who is the Anointer, the Baptizer, the source of Life, is All in All.
I CORINTHIANS 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.1 John 2:5 – whose word is this that we must keep?
Hi Malcolm,
The end view, which will not be complete till the return of Christ and the end of the 1000yr reign, is that God
“MAY BE all in all”[1Cor 15.28]
1Jn 1.5
“This is the message that we have heard from him,and annouce to you, that God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all”
Jn 1.4
“IN HIM was life;and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness;and the darkness did not comprehend it.
There came a man, sent from God, whose name was John. He came for a witness, that he might bear witness of the light, that all might believe through him.
He was not the light, but came that he might bear witness of the light
There was the true light, which coming into the world, enlightens every man. He was in the World and the world was made through him, and the world did not know him. He came to His own, and those whop were His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them he gave the right to become children of God..”So Christ, the Son of God, anointed by the Spirit of God was sent into the world to be a vessel of the Light Himself. The light was in Christ so Christ too was a light.
So each verse has to be looked at individually as to whether it is the vessel or the contents it applies to.
Thus is competely fulfilled too the scripture about John the baptist.
Lk 1.76f
“For you will go on before the Lord to prepare His ways;…….
.. with which the Sunrise from on high shall visit us to shine upon those who sit in darkness and the shadow of death”Quote (malcolm ferris @ May 29 2006,23:58) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2006,11:34) Hi Malcolm,
Heb 2.10f
“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the founadation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of your hands; they will perish but you remain, and they will become old like a garment, and like a mantle you will roll them up. Like a garment they will also be changed, but you are the same, and your years will not come to an end”So the role of Jesus in the godly work is creation is revealed. The scrolling up of the heavens in Rev 6.14 and the burning up and renewing of the heavens and earth also [rev 21], while Christ is eternal.
2Jn 9
“Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God;the one who abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son”
The fruit of abiding in the Word is evidence of the indwelling of the Spirit of God which is the Spirit of Christ. This does not say both the Father and the Son ARE the Word of God.[1jn 2.5,2.14,2.20-24,3.24]
That scripture tells me he who has the revelation of Jesus Christ has both the Father and the Son. The Revelation of God through His son – shows us Father and Son.I agree that the Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of God, It is God the Great Spirit who is the Anointer, the Baptizer, the source of Life, is All in All.
I CORINTHIANS 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.1 John 2:5 – whose word is this that we must keep?
Hi Malcolm,
1Jn 2.2f
“And if anyone sins we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ, the Righteous…
..The one who says
'I have come to know Him'
And does not keep his commanments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps his word, in him the love of God has been perfected. By this we know that we are in him; the one who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same manner as he walked”So it is not our opinion that we know Christ that carries any weight. There are many who will call out to him that they know him after the door closes and he will tell them he never knew them.
He said
“Why do you call me 'Lord Lord' and do not do what I say?”He said we must be born again.
He said we must love one another as he loved us.
He said to do good to our enemies.He walked in faith according to the Spirit.
He spoke the truth in love.
He was used by God to do the works of God.He is the Word of God.
His teachings are of the Spirit of God.Hi,
Some believe the Logos was not a being who was begotten of God in the beginning. Instead they hold that Jesus became the Son of God at his conception in Mary. What do others think?In order to say that Christ was created as a man first, we then deny that Christ's nature which was of his Fathers.
We demote Jesus to a flesh being who was exhalted afterward. But this thinking does seem to deny the truth that 'Jesus came in the flesh', 'that Jesus partook of the flesh'.
To me there are too many scriptures that talk of pre-existence. So many that it would take a major effort in mis-translations of scripture to create scriptures that indeed talk of Christ existing before coming as a man. Even much more than translations that twist scripture to a Trinity bias.
These scriptures are as follows, yet I am sure that the Unitarians have an explanation for all of them. But I am not convinced of their arguments.
I will make a following post listing these scriptures.
Not all these verses are clear teachings of Christ pre-existing in Heaven before coming in the flesh. Some are just pointers and fit nicely into the big picture. On their own they are not proof.
Other scriptures in my opinion teach clearly that Christ existed (as the Logos) before he partook of the flesh.John 6:38-40
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.The first verse suggests that Jesus came down from Heaven. This seems to contradict the belief that he first existed as a man when he was born into this world. For if Jesus was first conceived through Mary and had no pre-existance, how could he come down from Heaven. We (Man) come into existence when we are born into this world, but would it be correct to say that we came down from Heaven? If a verse said that we came down from Heaven, would you think that we pre-existed in Heaven?
John 1:15
15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' “John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus Christ. So it is physically impossible for Christ to be before him. Surely this verse shows pre-existence, at least before John the Baptist.
Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.&
Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.These 2 verses you just read blatantly say that he is before all things.
John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.So there is nothing that was made that didn't involve Jesus/The Word being there. This verse alone answers your question because the universe, angels and men were made and Jesus was present when they were created.
John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”Jesus claimed to exist before Abraham. The words I am mean I exist. So Jesus existed before Abraham.
Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”Here we see that Jesus is the offspring of David, yet he is also the root of David, which at appears to show existance before King David.
Luke 10:18
He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.Was this a vision or the real thing?
Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”Micah 5:2 talks about someone who will rule Israel and who originated in ancient times.
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was god.John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[ 1:14 Or the Only Begotten] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.So Jesus was with God in the beginning. We also know from certain scriptures that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and it is assumed that Jesus gave the Law. We are also told in Acts:7:30-39 that an Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses through whom God spoke and this is the same Angel who spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai and passed on the living words (The Law) to Moses.
30 “After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.
31 When he saw this, he was amazed at the sight. As he went over to look more closely, he heard the Lord's voice:
32 'I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.'Moses trembled with fear and did not dare to look.
33 “Then the Lord said to him, 'Take off your sandals; the place where you are standing is holy ground.
34 I have indeed seen the oppression of my people in Egypt. I have heard their groaning and have come down to set them free. Now come, I will send you back to Egypt.'
35 “This is the same Moses whom they had rejected with the words, 'Who made you ruler and judge?' He was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself, through the angel who appeared to him in the bush.
36 He led them out of Egypt and did wonders and miraculous signs in Egypt, at the Red Sea and for forty years in the desert.
37 “This is that Moses who told the Israelites, 'God will send you a prophet like me from your own people.'
38 He was in the assembly in the desert, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to us.
39 “But our fathers refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt.We are then told in 1 Corinthians 10:1-4
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.So is the Angel/Messenger of the Lord, Christ? Well I am not sure, but I know that Christ accompanied Moses and the Israelites. Perhaps the correct model to look at is the one mentioned in Revelation 1:1
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
Here we can see that the order of the Revelation started with the Originator which is God. He then passed it to Jesus Christ who sent it to his Angel and then to John. So perhaps it is possible that the Angel mentioned is the same Angel mentioned in Acts:7:30-39. Either way it still suggests that Jesus Christ existed at the time of Moses.
Moving on we read the following in Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.Verse 2 is talking about the son and it says that God made the universe through him, (in the context of him being a son). The word universe in this scripture means Age.
aion {ahee-ohn'}
1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, ageWe even use the word 'aion' (eon or aeon) in English to refer to Age. So if we read the last part of this verse as AGE, we get the following: appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the age.
John 3:17
For God did not send (apostello) his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.apostello {ap-os-tel'-lo}
1) to order (one) to go to a place appointed
2) to send away, dismiss
2a) to allow one to depart, that he may be in a state of liberty
2b) to order one to depart, send off
2c) to drive awayTo be sent surely implies existence otherwise you would just say born. In fact this word (s
ent) is similar in meaning and sound to the word Apostle (apostolos), which means “one sent forth with orders”.Philippians 2:5-11
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.Surely the above verses assumes pre-existence Another look at verse 7: but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. This verse points out that Jesus humbled himself to become a (or like a) human and also a servant. So this suggests to us that he pre-existed in a higher state because to humble oneself is to become lower. If he started life in this humbled state, then it would be incorrect to say that he humbled himself.
This verse is often used in support of the trinity doctrine because of the word 'equal'. But if you are equal to something it means that you are not that thing, rather you are like that thing. This scripture is also very clear about the following: The Father is God and Jesus is Lord and that God exalted Jesus to the highest place.
A closer look at verse 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: Now I am not sure if Jesus was exalted higher than he was before he came to this world or whether he was exalted to the exact position that he had before. But if we look at John 17:5 again we can see that Jesus asked to return to his former glory.
John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.The above verse is clear about Christ's pre-existence in glory before the world began. The next verse also confirms that Jesus pre-existed in Heaven.
John 3:12-15
12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven, the Son of Man.
14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.Ezekiel 8:1-3
1 In the sixth year, in the sixth month on the fifth day, while I was sitting in my house and the elders of Judah were sitting before me, the hand of the Sovereign LORD came upon me there.
2 I looked, and I saw a figure like that of a man. From what appeared to be his waist down he was like fire, and from there up his appearance was as bright as glowing metal.
3 He stretched out what looked like a hand and took me by the hair of my head. The Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and in visions of God he took me to Jerusalem, to the entrance to the north gate of the inner court, where the idol that provokes to jealousy stood.This verse is interesting in the sense that the description is very similar to the description of Jesus Christ in Revelation 1:12-18,
12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands,
13 and among the lampstands was someone “like a son of man,” dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest.
14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire.
15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters.
16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.
17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.
18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.Have a look at the next verse. 1 Corinthians 11:3 (English-NIV)
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.Now the word head in the Greek is 'kephale' which can mean head, source or master. Now if we notice the order in a time sense, we have to admit that God is the first as he is the only one who has existed for all eternity with no beginning. We also know from scripture that the man came first and the woman came from the man. So that part is correct if we use a timeline. That just leaves Christ. Did he come between God and Man. I think so, as I believe that all things came from him and this opinion does fit perfectly into this model in a time sense at least. Anyway the word Christ here is 'Christos' which means “anointed”. So the anointed is the head of Man.
God > Christ > Man > WomanIf God created all things for his Son and his Son was the channel for that creation to come into being, then we can only assume that Christ existed at this point. As Genesis says: Let us make Man in our image. God was talking to Christ at this point and we know that Christ is the image of God and we are the image of Christ. Therefore the image of the image of God (man) is still the image of God. But Christ is the original and first image and we can only assume again that that image existed before the image of the image. A bit like a mirror that reflects a mirror, the original mirror has to exist in order to reflect the second mirror.
So we know that Christ pre-existed before creation and now we will look at some more scriptures that show that he was born before creation itself?
Colossians 1:15-16
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.The above verse is quite clear that ALL things were created by or through Jesus.
John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.Hi,
There are some that see man as only flesh and spirit, rather like the philosphers view of man in Ecclesiastes. They do not see man with a soul. They have defined the soul out of existence thus breaking all the scriptures especially in the Psalms about our soul. God does relate to man at times just as body:“Remember man that thou art dust and unto dust though shalt return”
Those who deny the soul see only with human eyes and not eyes of the Spirit. Thus they cannot grasp the inner aspect of man, the unseen and integrated soul being.
They see Christ in the same light and thus cannot grasp how it was a soul that he differed. It was a unseen living soul being he came from heaven and became flesh like us.
It is his soul vessel that is surely of gold as in 2 Tim 2 20 whereas we are only of earthenware. Yet such earthenware can still hold treasure.
Yes if we are body, spirit, and soul then how can Christ, (who is greater) be only spirit and body. Especially considering that he was like us.
This is where the idea that God took flesh came from. It is antichrist i.e., against Christ, against anointing, against the truth.
Mark 14:34
“My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death,” he said to them. “Stay here and keep watch.”1 Thessalonians 5:23
May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.Hi,
Some would suggest that John borrowed LOGOS from the greek culture he lived in. No matter so long as the words he wrote were the words the Holy Spirit wrote, through him.Hi,
The biblical being, the Logos or Word, continues to cause a lot of discussion.Many would prefer to say he was only a thought or a plan in the mind of God so we should look further as a Word is expressed from a person unlike a thought or a plan which is within the person.
As far as I know a thought cannot think.
Phillipians chapter 2 tells us that Jesus bing in the form of God thought it not robbery to be equal with God.
The ability to think very strongly implies independant existence and a conscious state of being. Jesus himself supports this premise by referring in John 17 to the glory that he had with God before the foundation of the world.
This begs the question how can Jesus be said to have shared this glory with God if he in fact only existed as a thought. He would have no memory of it and therefore also would not really be able to be said to have actually had it.
Also I hardly think he would have been asking God his Father to reduce him back to the state of being a thought in His mind…
Hi,
Trinitarians emphasise the Word being god in Jn 1 but never have I seen them explain the Word being WITH GOD. Yet that aspect of verse has witnessing verses.Jn 1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jn 1
2The same was in the beginning with God
1Jn 1
2(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)So it is established scriptural fact.
And it seeems to mean just what it says.
Compare.
Genesis 5:22
And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:Genesis 21:20
And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer.Genesis 26:24
And the LORD appeared unto him the same night, and said, I am the God of Abraham thy father: fear not, for I am with thee, and will bless thee, and multiply thy seed for my servant Abraham's sake.NO ONE SUGGESTS ABRAHAM WAS PART OF GOD
Deuteronomy 20:1
When thou goest out to battle against thine enemies, and seest horses, and chariots, and a people more than thou, be not afraid of them: for the LORD thy God is with thee, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.WITH MEANS WITH
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