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Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 30 2009,03:46) Worshippingjesus said to t8: Quote Again you claim that men are gods (theos) but Paul says no such thing…
The title “gods” in reference to men simply meant “magistrates” or “rulers.” The idea of deities was never present.thinker
Exactly thinker.Please tell WJ what you just said, that all instances of theos or elohim are not always in reference to the Most High God. And that sometimes they are in reference to being rulers or magistrates. WJ says that they are only in reference to false gods or the true God and this reasoning leads him to believe that Jesus is God as he couldn't be a false god. He is wrong about that and you obviously agree.
Now look what God gave Christ.
Acts 2:36
“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”So if men and angels can be referred to as theos/elohim without being God, then ask yourself why you say that Jesus is God when you know full well that Jesus has been made lord and christ and therefore the ultimate ruler.
This same Jesus said the following and who are we to disagree with the one called truth?
John 17:3 (English-NIV)
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.Saying that Jesus is part of a Trinity God because the word theos may have been used in reference to him is to be biased, when we know that theos is used in an affirmative way for others who are not the Most High God.
Context is important. e.g., Most High God, or God of gods, the God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ, one God the Father, etc, shows us that the Father is the one true God and other uses are either beings under the authority of God or false gods.
It is kind of the same with the Devil. We know there is a Devil who is Satan. But there are devils, which are those who have his nature or character, but who are not the Devil himself.
We also see the same thing with Man. There was one son of Man (Adam) and his offspring are called man which is the same word “adam”. So there was one Adam and those who partake in his nature are adam.
If people could understand that this is quite normal in scripture, then perhaps they might stop forcing their own understanding and culture onto scripture and in doing so they might draw better and truer conclusions.
The statement by St. Athanasius of Alexandria, “The Son of God became man, that we might become god”, [the second g is always lowercase since man can never become a God] indicates the concept beautifully. II Peter 1:4 says that we have become ” . . . partakers of divine nature.” Athanasius amplifies the meaning of this verse when he says theosis is “becoming by grace what God is by nature” (De Incarnatione, I). What would otherwise seem absurd, that fallen, sinful man may become holy as God is holy, has been made possible through Jesus Christ, who is God incarnate. Naturally, the crucial Christian assertion, that God is One, sets an absolute limit on the meaning of theosis – it is not possible for any created being to become, ontologically, God or even another god.
Please see the full article here: http://orthodoxwiki.org/Theosis
Hi CA,
The Spirit of God can give us the gifts and fruit of the Spirit just as that Spirit did for Jesus, thus making us alike to God and His Son.
We partake of the divine nature but we never become GodQuote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 29 2009,18:04) Hi CA,
Is this the man suspected of murder?
Fruit is the guide.
I guess it takes one to know one…a fruit that is.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 29 2009,13:37) t8 Quote (t8 @ Sep. 28 2009,20:29) Prove to me that Jesus was saying that they were false Gods, when he said “Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods' ?”
That’s easy…Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: “BEFORE ME THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED, NEITHER SHALL THERE BE AFTER ME”. Isa 43:10
“Now concerning everything which I have said to you, be on your guard; and “DO NOT MENTION THE NAME OF OTHER GODS, NOR LET THEM BE HEARD FROM YOUR MOUTH. Exod 23:13
You do believe that Jesus knew these scriptures don't you?
So maybe your understanding of Jesus quoting the Psalmist in referring to wicked men and judges is wrong and in fact the Psalmist writes…
But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes. Ps 82:7
Were they god’s t8? Is this what Jesus is implying?
Jesus gave Paul direct revelation of the Gospel and Paul said…
So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that “THERE IS NO GOD BUT ONE“. For even if there “ARE SO CALLED GODS”, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 1 Cor 8:4, 5
So now please show me in the NT a scripture anywhere where the word “Theos” is applied to an Apostle or follower of Christ.
So you rest your faith on an ambiguous scripture which Jesus quotes to show their own Hypocrisy to promote Henotheism or Polytheism. Jesus knew the Hebrew scriptures and that there is no God but One, neither were there any formed. And all so-called gods by men are not gods at all.
Again you claim that men are gods (theos) but Paul says no such thing…
So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that “THERE IS NO GOD BUT ONE“. For even if there “ARE SO CALLED GODS”, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 1 Cor 8:4, 5
You do believe Paul’s words don't you t8 when he says…
“THERE IS NO GOD BUT ONE“. For even if there “ARE SO CALLED GODS”
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 28 2009,20:29) Also prove to me that Satan is the false God of this world?
Nice how you called satan the “God” of this world with a capitol “G”.You have shown your own arrogance against scriptures by doing so. For you have just changed the Translations of over 600 scholars who know far more about you and the use of the word “Theos”.
Is satan the “True God” of this world? Or is he a liar and a Usurper over men?
Is this all you have? Two lonely scriptures that call wicked men and the wicked being satan god.
Now compare that with this…
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Jn 1:1
But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom. Heb 1:8
Or this…
while we wait for the blessed hope–the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, Titus 2:13
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 28 2009,20:29) You are forced to see magistrates and judges as false gods.
I am not forced to see it that way.Of course you are not forced, because you are a Henotheist who believes in more than “One Theos” God!
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 28 2009,20:29) Again, your bias forms your belief.
Looking in the mirror again!WJ
t8Quote (t8 @ Sep. 29 2009,02:06) Try again WJ. You commentaries are always biased because you isolate certain scriptures and ignore difficult ones.
If you included other scriptures in your writing, then you might have more credibility.
This is laughable. I didn’t include the scripture because I answered your questions concerning that scripture with scripture. But, notice everyone that t8 didn’t answer any of my points. Could it be that you avoid the difficult scriptures?Who is it that shows bias by not including scriptures? Why don’t you include these…?
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: “BEFORE ME THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED, NEITHER SHALL THERE BE AFTER ME”. Isa 43:10
“Now concerning everything which I have said to you, be on your guard; and “DO NOT MENTION THE NAME OF OTHER GODS, NOR LET THEM BE HEARD FROM YOUR MOUTH. Exod 23:13
Also t8 fails to mention that his theology allows for “a god” Jesus to be included in the creation of all things when the scriptures clearly claim that only “One God” created all things…
Isa 44:24
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; *that stretcheth forth the heavens alone*; that spreadeth abroad the earth *by myself*;Isa 45:18
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: *I am the LORD; and there is none else*.Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and *there is none else*; I am God, and *there is none like me*,Will you give us a fair commentary on this t8?
WJ
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 29 2009,02:06) You neglect to mention this for example: Psalm 82:6
“I said, 'You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High.'
No, you had already mentioned it with a question which I responded to with an answer, which is something that you do not do but only divert attention by making false claims!Quote (t8 @ Sep. 29 2009,02:06) Where is the reference to “false” gods? It actually says sons of the Most High in the same sentence.
Does it have to say “false gods” to know that according to YHWH and Paul that they are not gods at all. Sure it says they were “sons of the most high God”, but we know that they were fallen, don’t we? They were wicked kings and judges, weren’t they? They were going to die like men weren’t they?You don’t get it do you? Jesus said…
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? John 10:34-36
Notice t8 the words , “Is it not written in your law, I (the Psalmist) said, Ye are gods?” and “If he (the Psalmist) called them gods”.
First Jesus is “QUOTING” the Psalmist for he says “is it not written in your law” and then he says “If “HE” called them gods”. This is not YHWH making the statement; it is the Psalmist that is calling them “gods”. Or YHWH would be contradicting himself, wouldn't he? (Isa 43:10, Exod 22:13). If you are honest when you read the context you will see that it is the Psalmist speaking and not YHWH, at best it is ambiguous!
This is what it means for a scripture to be inspired and true but the statement itself false.
For example the following scripture is true and inspired…
But when the Pharisees heard [it], they said, This [fellow] doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. Matt 12:24
But even though this scripture is true and inspired, we know that the Pharisees were wrong and their statement is not true! You do understand that don't you t8?
And if you don't think that men can call a man god and yet be wrong then what do you say of these scriptures…?
And upon a set day Herod, arrayed in royal apparel, sat upon his throne, and made an oration unto them. And the people gave a shout, saying, “It is the voice of a god, and not of a man“. And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost. Acts 12:21-23
Yet we see Jesus being called “Lord and God” by Thomas without any correction by Jesus or John but in fact Jesus blesses him because he had seen who he was! Why wasn't Jesus eaten up with worms? Why did the same John who witnessed this write John 1:1 using the word “theos” when he could have used another word that would describe Jesus as divine?
Since the scriptures claim that there is “no god but one”! Then we can be sure that it is not YHWH claiming these wicked men to be gods in Psalms 82, and John 10:34! So your understanding of the passage is contradictory to YHWHs own words…
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: “BEFORE ME THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED, NEITHER SHALL THERE BE AFTER ME”. Isa 43:10
Jesus was rebuking them for their own interpretation of what was “written in their law” and their hypocrisy for accusing him because he claimed to be the Son of God, while they claimed to be gods!
Tell us again t8 how men are gods, or are becoming gods, for it sure is not found in the mouth of YHWH nor his children?
WJ
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 29 2009,02:06) When you can give a fair commentary and include all scripture, not just the ones you can twist, then someone actually might take you seriously.
I just did! Now maybe you can explain to us why you think YHWH wants us to believe the wicked kings and judges should be called “gods” especially when he says “BEFORE ME THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED, NEITHER SHALL THERE BE AFTER ME”.And when Paul says…
“THERE IS NO GOD BUT ONE“.!
Then explain to us how it is you cannot find “One” single scripture where the word “Theos” is ascribed to a “Divine being” other than Jesus by the Apostles.
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 29 2009,02:06) Obviously the words 'theos' and 'elohim' are used in a greater context than you can appreciate and used in a way that doesn't infringe on the truth that the true God is the Most High God. This is the reality we find in scripture and a reality that you continually put your head in the sand in order to ignore.
Obviously?
Really, where is the NT example of Henotheism in the NT?
Where is the “One” example where an Apostle or follower of Christ ascribes the word “Theos” to a Divine being other than Jesus?
It’s not in all 27 books of the NT is it t8? Yet you say that the word “Theos” is used in a greater context?
Get real!Quote (t8 @ Sep. 29 2009,02:06) I think you should give up teaching because teachers incur a stricter judgement and we are responsible for that which we teach. If you can't give up teaching the false doctrine of the trinity for the sake of others, what about doing it for yourself?
I realize that you as well as many here on this sight would like to censor me or silence me.You have that power t8. You can ban me anytime that you like for teaching what “You call” false doctrine. But, then again to be fair you would have to ban a whole lot of people here, and what would you have then? A sight that allows only those who believe in more than one god or gods!
WJ
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 29 2009,19:34) The statement by St. Athanasius of Alexandria, “The Son of God became man, that we might become god”, [the second g is always lowercase since man can never become a God] indicates the concept beautifully. II Peter 1:4 says that we have become ” . . . partakers of divine nature.” Athanasius amplifies the meaning of this verse when he says theosis is “becoming by grace what God is by nature” (De Incarnatione, I). What would otherwise seem absurd, that fallen, sinful man may become holy as God is holy, has been made possible through Jesus Christ, who is God incarnate. Naturally, the crucial Christian assertion, that God is One, sets an absolute limit on the meaning of theosis – it is not possible for any created being to become, ontologically, God or even another god. Please see the full article here: http://orthodoxwiki.org/Theosis
CATrue! The Hebrew faith did not allow them to even speak of other gods by name!
Henotheism is a false belief system simply to deny the Deity of Jesus!
WJ
t8 said:
Quote Please tell WJ what you just said, that all instances of theos or elohim are not always in reference to the Most High God. And that sometimes they are in reference to being rulers or magistrates. WJ says that they are only in reference to false gods or the true God and this reasoning leads him to believe that Jesus is God as he couldn't be a false god. He is wrong about that and you obviously agree. t8,
You have been saying that there are lesser “deities” (or gods) in addition to God. I was refuting YOU. WJ is correct that there are no other deities of any kind lesser or greater. Jesus is God because “in Him dwells all the fulness of the THEOTOKOS bodily” (Colossians 2:9)You have said also that because men partake of the divine nature this makes them deities and that they will become gods. But the divine nature has to do with God's communicable attributes such as love, mercy, kindness, patience, longsuffering, etc., etc. Had you taken just one Systematic Theology course you would know this.
Men may partake of the divine nature but they cannot partake of the divine form. Paul explicitly said that Jesus existed in the form of God. Therefore, He was God. Jesus told the Jews that they had not seen God's form (John 5:37). But they had seen the divine nature. So your idea that men become deities or gods because they partake of the divine nature is fallacious.
WJ and all can see that you have twisted what I said.
thinker
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 30 2009,13:35) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 29 2009,19:34) The statement by St. Athanasius of Alexandria, “The Son of God became man, that we might become god”, [the second g is always lowercase since man can never become a God] indicates the concept beautifully. II Peter 1:4 says that we have become ” . . . partakers of divine nature.” Athanasius amplifies the meaning of this verse when he says theosis is “becoming by grace what God is by nature” (De Incarnatione, I). What would otherwise seem absurd, that fallen, sinful man may become holy as God is holy, has been made possible through Jesus Christ, who is God incarnate. Naturally, the crucial Christian assertion, that God is One, sets an absolute limit on the meaning of theosis – it is not possible for any created being to become, ontologically, God or even another god. Please see the full article here: http://orthodoxwiki.org/Theosis
CATrue! The Hebrew faith did not allow them to even speak of other gods by name!
Henotheism is a false belief system simply to deny the Deity of Jesus!
WJ
Hi CA & WJ:The statement by St. Athanasius states that a man can never become God, and by this statement he himself acknowledges that Jesus is a man.
Although I know that he is qualifying this with whether or not a lower case or upper case “G” is used.
God made man in His own image and Jesus is a man who is the last Adam and is the express image of God's person.
This statement says that Jesus is God incarnate, and he indeed is God's own flesh and blood, but not God incarnate, he is the Son of the living God who through obedience to the Word of God has become the express image of God's person. We have seen the character of God our Father through the life of our Lord Jesus. It is because of the works that he did in the body in obedience to the Word of God that God our Father calls him God.
Love in Christ,
MartyWJ…………the LORD said as you quoted.” BEFORE ME THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED, NEITHER SHALL THERE BE AFTER ME” If you understood that the word GOD means (POWERS) from the word Elohim. A uniplural word. You would realize That what He was saying was that there were (NO) POWERS Before HIM and there will BE NONE After HIM either , NOW with that understanding we can see that (ALL) POWER drives it source form that (ONE) POWER WE call GOD. The LORD GOD , gives those POWERS to HIS creation at different Levels some have more and some less (BUT) they (ALL) still derive there source from that ONE POWER. SO in order to separate GOD the FATHER from the Rest, Jesus said (FOR THOU ART THE ONLY (TRUE) GOD or POWER same thing. NOTICE the WORD (TRUE) why because He is the source of it (ALL). EVERYTHING DERIVES it's POWER from that ONE SOURCE> and that includes JESUS ALSO. JUST ONE GOD (POWER) working IN ALL AND THROUGH ALL. THE LORD IS THE SOURCE OF ALL POWER IN EARTH AND HEAVEN. NO OTHER SOURCE IS THERE BUT HIM ALONE. IMO
gene
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 30 2009,07:39) T8…quote
Please tell WJ what you just said, that all instances of theos or elohim are not always in reference to the Most High God. And that sometimes they are in reference to being rulers or magistrates. WJ says that they are only in reference to false gods or the true God and this reasoning leads him to believe that Jesus is God as he couldn't be a false god. He is wrong about that and you obviously agree.Now look what God gave Christ.
Acts 2:36
“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”So if men and angels can be referred to as theos/elohim without being God, then ask yourself why you say that Jesus is God when you know full well that Jesus has been made lord and christ and therefore the ultimate ruler.
This same Jesus said the following and who are we to disagree with the one called truth?
John 17:3 (English-NIV)
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.Saying that Jesus is part of a Trinity God because the word theos may have been used in reference to him is to be biased, when we know that theos is used in an affirmative way for others who are not the Most High God.
Context is important. e.g., Most High God, or God of gods, the God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ, one God the Father, etc, shows us that the Father is the one true God and other uses are either beings under the authority of God or false gods.
It is kind of the same with the Devil. We know there is a Devil who is Satan. But there are devils, which are those who have his nature or character, but who are not the Devil himself.
We also see the same thing with Man. There was one son of Man (Adam) and his offspring are called man which is the same word “adam”. So there was one Adam and those who partake in his nature are adam.
If people could understand that this is quite normal in scripture, then perhaps they might stop forcing their own understanding and culture onto scripture and in doing so they might draw better and truer conclusions.
T8………good post i see it that way to.gene
Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 29 2009,22:00) t8 said: Quote Please tell WJ what you just said, that all instances of theos or elohim are not always in reference to the Most High God. And that sometimes they are in reference to being rulers or magistrates. WJ says that they are only in reference to false gods or the true God and this reasoning leads him to believe that Jesus is God as he couldn't be a false god. He is wrong about that and you obviously agree. t8,
You have been saying that there are lesser “deities” (or gods) in addition to God. I was refuting YOU. WJ is correct that there are no other deities of any kind lesser or greater. Jesus is God because “in Him dwells all the fulness of the THEOTOKOS bodily” (Colossians 2:9)You have said also that because men partake of the divine nature this makes them deities and that they will become gods. But the divine nature has to do with God's communicable attributes such as love, mercy, kindness, patience, longsuffering, etc., etc. Had you taken just one Systematic Theology course you would know this.
Men may partake of the divine nature but they cannot partake of the divine form. Paul explicitly said that Jesus existed in the form of God. Therefore, He was God. Jesus told the Jews that they had not seen God's form (John 5:37). But they had seen the divine nature. So your idea that men become deities or gods because they partake of the divine nature is fallacious.
WJ and all can see that you have twisted what I said.
thinker
Hi JackAmen! Ask any Monotheistic Hebrew if they believe in other “gods”?
WJ
Quote (Gene @ Sep. 29 2009,22:59) WJ…………the LORD said as you quoted.” BEFORE ME THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED, NEITHER SHALL THERE BE AFTER ME” If you understood that the word GOD means (POWERS) from the word Elohim. A uniplural word. You would realize That what He was saying was that there were (NO) POWERS Before HIM and there will BE NONE After HIM either , NOW with that understanding we can see that (ALL) POWER drives it source form that (ONE) POWER WE call GOD. The LORD GOD , gives those POWERS to HIS creation at different Levels some have more and some less (BUT) they (ALL) still derive there source from that ONE POWER. SO in order to separate GOD the FATHER from the Rest, Jesus said (FOR THOU ART THE ONLY (TRUE) GOD or POWER same thing. NOTICE the WORD (TRUE) why because He is the source of it (ALL). EVERYTHING DERIVES it's POWER from that ONE SOURCE> and that includes JESUS ALSO. JUST ONE GOD (POWER) working IN ALL AND THROUGH ALL. THE LORD IS THE SOURCE OF ALL POWER IN EARTH AND HEAVEN. NO OTHER SOURCE IS THERE BUT HIM ALONE. IMO gene
GeneYou keep regurgitating this same argument with out any proof!
Can you show us in any Hebrew concordance or lexicon where the word “God” means powers?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 30 2009,17:04) Hi Jack Amen! Ask any Monotheistic Hebrew if they believe in other “gods”?
WJ
Ask any Monotheistic Hebrew if they believe in a Triune God or the Trinity.Then ask any Monotheistic Hebrew if Psalm 82:6 is part of scripture.
“I said, 'You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High.'Then ask them if the above text is talking about false gods.
Caught in your own craftiness WJ.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 30 2009,13:10) Does it have to say “false gods” to know that according to YHWH and Paul that they are not gods at all. Sure it says they were “sons of the most high God”, but we know that they were fallen, don’t we? They were wicked kings and judges, weren’t they? They were going to die like men weren’t they?
Yes is has to say false gods if it means false gods. Otherwise you are adding to the verse.It says “theos” and also says “sons of the Most High”.
Just because it is difficult for your theology, doesn't mean that you should add to the text.Jesus wasn't calling them false gods. Get use to it.
We all know that they were fallen just like all humans. But that is not what is being addressed here.
In another scripture it says that we are made in God's image or likeness: James 3:9
With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in God's likeness.Yet are we to say that we are made in God's false image if we are considered sinful. No, it is affirming that we are made in his image despite our sinful status and that we shouldn't slander men because of that fact. Being fallen doesn't change the fact that we are made in God's image and the Pharisees who held the seat of Moses and who happened to be vulchures were still called “theos” by Christ, not false theos and then he said we are all sons of the Most High and he finished by saying that he was the son of God. He didn't say I am God and he never said or claimed such. Get use to it WJ, there is no Trinity here.
Your interpretation is that Jesus called them false gods and sons of the Most High in the same breath. Anyone without bias can see that this is not right.
Honestly WJ, if you say that Jesus (the one you claim to worship) said something that he actually didn't say, then how exactly are you glorifying him by mis-representing him?
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