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Hi TT,
God can call anyone gods. As Jesus said men are gods.
But none are the one God of Israel and of Jesus and you should know this simple thing.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 29 2009,02:55) Hi Jack True, Joseph is not a good example because Joseph was ruler over all of Egypt by proxy.
However, Christ is the builder and maker of his house and sits “In the throne” with the Father and is worshipped.
In the Hebrew faith this would be idolatry. And in fact I believe those who believe that Jesus is not God sitting in God's throne (Heb 1:8), are committing Idolatry for they are creating a false image of the “Image of the invisible God”, which is Jesus who is God made visible.
The “Right Hand of God” is a metophor of his equality with the Father.
WJ
It is a no brainer that it is not a perfect example due to the fact that the relationship that Jesus has with our Father God is unique and like no other. I was pointing out that God made Jesus lord and that the Pharoah made Joseph lord over his kingdom.It wasn't meant to be stretched to encompass other things like God creating all things through him etc, or God's invisible qualities or whatever else.
Try to read the points and take thought as to what is said, rather than adding ideas and then bulldozing those added ideas down in some sort of victory march.
Just a reminder that fools rush in where angels fear to tread. Take thought about what is being said before making replies WJ. It is better to be wise than cunning.
Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 28 2009,21:17) So you deny that the Father has exalted Jesus and has installed Him as God on the throne? “But to the Son He says, Your throne O God is forever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of YOUR kingdom.”
You say that the Father is your God. Yet you reject that He has installed His Christ as God on the throne.
WJ has effectively disrproved you. You claim that there is only one true God at the same time acknowledging that Christ is also a true God. If there is only one true God then Christ would be a false God.
Your confusion is the result of failing to see that Christ's Father has installed Christ as God on the throne since then. If the Father is your God as you claim then accept it.
Joseph and Pharoah are not analogous to Christs session at the Father's right. Sorry.
thinker
God has placed Christ on his throne to rule with him.
Christ places some of us on his throne to rule with him.It is not meant to be taken as Christ being God or us being Christ.
Revelation 3:21
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.Also I do not say that Christ is the true God, I say that he is the son of God. Show me where I teach that Christ is the true God or a true God. I teach the truth regarding the use of the word 'theos' as it is applied to God, Jesus, and man. I have always said as scripture says, that the Father is the one true God. This is what Christ taught us and I believe him.
Your comment about Joseph and Pharoah not being analogous to Christs session at the Father's right, is a silly comment because I am only saying that God made Jesus lord and the Pharoah made Jospeh lord of his kingdom. That is my point. I would appreciate very much if you didn't stretch my points any further. If you are going to quote or respond to something I said, please do not let your mind wander beyond what I have said. Much appreciated and thanks in advance.
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 28 2009,18:36) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 29 2009,02:55) Hi Jack True, Joseph is not a good example because Joseph was ruler over all of Egypt by proxy.
However, Christ is the builder and maker of his house and sits “In the throne” with the Father and is worshipped.
In the Hebrew faith this would be idolatry. And in fact I believe those who believe that Jesus is not God sitting in God's throne (Heb 1:8), are committing Idolatry for they are creating a false image of the “Image of the invisible God”, which is Jesus who is God made visible.
The “Right Hand of God” is a metophor of his equality with the Father.
WJ
It is a no brainer that it is not a perfect example due to the fact that the relationship that Jesus has with our Father God is unique and like no other. I was pointing out that God made Jesus lord and that the Pharoah made Joseph lord over his kingdom.It wasn't meant to be stretched to encompass other things like God creating all things through him etc, or God's invisible qualities or whatever else.
Try to read the points and take thought as to what is said, rather than adding ideas and then bulldozing those added ideas down in some sort of victory march.
Just a reminder that fools rush in where angels fear to tread. Take thought about what is being said before making replies WJ. It is better to be wise than cunning.
t8Its not a matter of bulldozing over your ideas. But your Ideas contain the inference that Jesus is less than the Father and not equal to him in authority and power.
Have you considered how Jesus is not even subject to the Father at this time according to 1 Cor 15?
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 28 2009,18:36) I was pointing out that God made Jesus lord and that the Pharoah made Joseph lord over his kingdom.
The scripture you refer to in context where the Father made Jesus “Lord'”, was after his ressurection.But as usuall you forget other scriptures that show who Jesus was before his coming in the flesh and his exaltation.
You forget John 1:1, and Phil 2:6-8 for example! And notice that it was Jesus who emptied himself and came in the likeness of sinful flesh. The Father didn't do it, Jesus did! How can any being but God do that?
Do you believe Jesus was Lord before he returned to his previous glory with the Father?
So your point to claim Jesus cannot be God because the Father made him Lord after the Ressurection is a mute point! Jesus had to fulfil everything that the Prophets spoke concerning him!
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 28 2009,18:36) I was pointing out that God made Jesus lord and that the Pharoah made Joseph lord over his kingdom.
True but also notice how the Kingdom was not Josephs and the Throne was not his, yet with Jesus he sits in the Fathers throne and it is his Kingdom for he also is “King of Kings and Lord of Lords”!WJ
WorshippingJesus said to t8:
Quote So your point to claim Jesus cannot be God because the Father made him Lord after the Ressurection is a mute point! Jesus had to fulfil everything that the Prophets spoke concerning him! Exactly! Jesus existed in the form of God but emptied Himself and became a servant so He could fulfill the law and the prophets. Therefore, God has highly exalted Him. Not only is He King of kings and Lord of lords, but He is also “God” on the throne (Heb. 1:8).
You speak the truth WJ.
thinker
t8
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 28 2009,19:14) Also I do not say that Christ is the true God, I say that he is the son of God. Show me where I teach that Christ is the true God or a true God. I teach the truth regarding the use of the word 'theos' as it is applied to God, Jesus, and man. I have always said as scripture says, that the Father is the one true God.
You are Equivocating!Jesus is called “God” in scriptures and we know that he is true, unlike the false gods, the wicked kings and judges!
Therfore Jesus is True God (theos).
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 29 2009,11:56) t8 Quote (t8 @ Sep. 28 2009,19:14) Also I do not say that Christ is the true God, I say that he is the son of God. Show me where I teach that Christ is the true God or a true God. I teach the truth regarding the use of the word 'theos' as it is applied to God, Jesus, and man. I have always said as scripture says, that the Father is the one true God.
You are Equivocating!Jesus is called “God” in scriptures and we know that he is true, unlike the false gods, the wicked kings and judges!
Therfore Jesus is True God (theos).
WJ
You do not understand the meaning of 'true'. When Jesus said “Ye are gods”, he wasn't saying “you are false gods”, by reason of the Father being the true God. If you cannot understand the usages of “theos”, then how will you ever progress? You cannot. You will just decide which uses of “theos” are part of the Trinity and which are not by your bias alone.Prove to me that Jesus was saying that they were false Gods, when he said “Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods' ?”
Also prove to me that Satan is the false God of this world?
The word God/Theos can also be applied (outside of the true God) as follows:
refers to the things of God
his counsels, interests, things due to him
whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
God's representative or viceregent
of magistrates and judgesYou are forced to see magistrates and judges as false gods.
I am not forced to see it that way.
Again, your bias forms your belief.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 29 2009,11:33) Its not a matter of bulldozing over your ideas. But your Ideas contain the inference that Jesus is less than the Father and not equal to him in authority and power.
Have you not read:Mark 10:18
“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.Regarding your comment on inferences:
many of the inferences you see are in the mind of the beholder. e.g., you say that I believe that Jesus is a false God because the Father is the true God. When I clearly show you the uses of “theos” such as “you are theos” outside of the one true God, you conclude that I believe in 2 Most Highs. Wake up WJ. Bias is the foundation of your doctrine and with that you make false accusations.
Theos is used in a variety of ways in scripture and its use is not limited to your ignorance on the subject.
I mean if I wanted to stoop to your level using inference, I could accuse you in the same way by saying that you also supposedly believe that the Father is the Most High God, therefore by reason of that, you are saying that Jesus is a false God. I could further say that there is one president and therefore adding in another person as president means that the second one must be false.
But I do not go around saying that you say this, even though it could be construed as a fair use of inference from your statements. I actually don't think it would be fair to take your words and stretch them out of context.
How about being a gentleman and sticking to what we are actually saying and not adding to what we are actually saying? Is this asking too much?
If you want to be like Jesus then why say false things?
t8
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 28 2009,20:29) Prove to me that Jesus was saying that they were false Gods, when he said “Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods' ?”
Thats easy…Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: “BEFORE ME THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED, NEITHER SHALL THERE BE AFTER ME”. Isa 43:10
“Now concerning everything which I have said to you, be on your guard; and “DO NOT MENTION THE NAME OF OTHER GODS, NOR LET THEM BE HEARD FROM YOUR MOUTH. Exod 23:13
You do believe that Jesus knew these scriptures don't you?
So maybe your undersstanding of Jesus quoting the Psalmist in refering to wicked men and judges is wrong and in fact the Psalmist writes…
But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes. Ps 82:7
Were they gods t8? Is this what Jesus is implying?
Jesus gave Paul direct revelation of the Gospel and Paul said…
So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that “THERE IS NO GOD BUT ONE“. For even if there “ARE SO CALLED GODS”, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 1 Cor 8:4, 5
So now please show me in the NT a scripture anywhere where the word “Theos” is applied to an Apostle or follower of Christ.
So you rest your faith on an ambiguos scripture which Jesus quotes to show their own Hypocrosy to promote Henotheism or Polytheism. Jesus knew the Hebrew scriptures and that there is no God but One, neither were there any formed. And all so-called gods by men are not gods at all.
Again you claim that men are gods (theos) but Paul says no such thing…
So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that “THERE IS NO GOD BUT ONE“. For even if there “ARE SO CALLED GODS”, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 1 Cor 8:4, 5
You do believe Pauls words don't you t8 when he says…
“THERE IS NO GOD BUT ONE“. For even if there “ARE SO CALLED GODS”
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 28 2009,20:29) Also prove to me that Satan is the false God of this world?
Nice how you called satan the “God” of this world with a capitol “G”.You have shown your own arrogance against scriptures by doing so. For you have just changed the Translations of over 600 scholars who know far more about the use of the word “Theos” than you do.
Is satan the “True God” of this world? Or is he a liar and a Usurper over men?
Is this all you have? Two lonely scriptures that call wicked men and the wicked being satan god.
Now compare that with this…
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Jn 1:1
But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom. Heb 1:8
Or this…
while we wait for the blessed hope–the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, Titus 2:13
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 28 2009,20:29) You are forced to see magistrates and judges as false gods.
I am not forced to see it that way.Of course you are not forced, because you are a Henotheist who believes in more than “One Theos” God!
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 28 2009,20:29) Again, your bias forms your belief.
Looking in the mirror again!WJ
Hi WJ,
Still you do not know the God of Israel despite the revelations of Jesus His Son.
“listen to him”WJ……….Trying to make Jesus the GOD (HE) served and always did what was pleasing to HIM , is wrong, Jesus did everything He did in as a Servant to HIS GOD, which He Said was the (ONLY) TRUE GOD. Now you can dance around that all you want, by going and getting scripture you can twist to show different , But would it be better to Believe what Jesus Said. Why can't you believe Him what is stopping you from that. Let me tell you what is , all the False teachings of the TRINITY has sealed your thinking to where you simply wont (consider) what we are telling you. Scrap the TRINITY and start anew. I mean this is a loving way , not trying to be Hostel, I know I can be at times , but WJ, I am pleading with you to reconsider you stand on the trinity while there is still time.
Peace and love to you and yours………………………….gene
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 29 2009,05:30) Quote (Gene @ Sep. 28 2009,13:15) WJ………If i said with that Rock, i will build my house with would you think I was the material that i would use to build the House with?Tell us was Jesus (NOT) Flesh and BLOOD, if you answer that with a Yes then He could not be the one He was referring to Peter about. I mean simple common sense would tell you that. God the FATHER was the ROCK Jesus was using to BUILD the Church of GOD. YOU can't even go to Jesus in order to be part of the Church unless the FATHER draw YOU. And I never Said or admitted Jesus was GOD, Jesus said there is (ONLY) ONE TRUE GOD and He never said HE was that GOD. Not to mention GOD himself said He was the (ONLY) GOD and told us to have (NO)other GOD besides HIM. It doesn't seem to bother you people to Go completely against the truth, are you void of understanding completely, Amazing , you can't even understand simple thing. IMO
gene
GeneQuote (Gene @ Sep. 28 2009,13:15) God the FATHER was the ROCK Jesus was using to BUILD the Church of GOD.
This is so twisted and confusing I do not even know where to start.So Jesus is “Using” the Father to build his Church?
I think you are admitting that “Jesus is building his Church”.
Gene, the foundation of the Church is the Apostles and the Prophets, Jesus Christ being the “Chief Cornerstone”.
Remeber Christ is that Rock that followed them in the wilderness!
This is the One you are rejecting!
WJ
WJ………Are you even aware that there is a Scripture that says that we are (GOD) building the He BUILT.Heb 3:4…..> For every house is built by some man; but he that built all things is GOD.
1 Peter 2:5 Ye also as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to GOD, (BY) Jesus the Christ.
Now read that slow, acceptable to (who) “GOD” (BY WHO) Jesus the Anointed or Christ. Does that seam like the same Jesus is making Us acceptable to Himself or (HIS GOD)>
Jesus is indeed building the Church using what GOD the FATHER who is the ROCK supplies. GOD the FATHER supplies HOLY SPIRIT led Sheep and send them to Jesus the ones He builds the church with. Jesus plainly said (NO) Man (CAN) Come UNTO ME (UNLESS THE FATHER DRAW HIM> GOD is the ROCK that is supplying the material to Build the Church. It is GOD the FATHER HIMSELF. And Jesus is the Master builder along with the Apostles . Jesus being the head APOSTLE. And Himself the Chief cornerstone of that building that GOD is BUILDING.
gene
Gene
Quote (Gene @ Sep. 28 2009,23:48) Jesus being the head APOSTLE. And Himself the Chief cornerstone of that building that GOD is BUILDING.
So Jesus was telling a lie when he said…And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock “I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Matt 16:18
Now compare that with this…
Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers.* “Be shepherds of the church of God,* WHICH HE BOUGHT WITH HIS OWN BLOOD”. Acts 20:28
You dodged this one…
Do you see it Gene? Jesus is building the Church and calls it “HIS” Church!, and Acts 20:28 calls it the Church of God which he (God) purchased with his own blood!
Why do you ignore these scriptures?
WJ
The statement by St. Athanasius of Alexandria, “The Son of God became man, that we might become god”, [the second g is always lowercase since man can never become a God] indicates the concept beautifully. II Peter 1:4 says that we have become ” . . . partakers of divine nature.” Athanasius amplifies the meaning of this verse when he says theosis is “becoming by grace what God is by nature” (De Incarnatione, I). What would otherwise seem absurd, that fallen, sinful man may become holy as God is holy, has been made possible through Jesus Christ, who is God incarnate. Naturally, the crucial Christian assertion, that God is One, sets an absolute limit on the meaning of theosis – it is not possible for any created being to become, ontologically, God or even another god.
Please see the full article here: http://orthodoxwiki.org/Theosis
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 29 2009,13:37) t8 Quote (t8 @ Sep. 28 2009,20:29) Prove to me that Jesus was saying that they were false Gods, when he said “Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods' ?”
Thats easy…Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: “BEFORE ME THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED, NEITHER SHALL THERE BE AFTER ME”. Isa 43:10
“Now concerning everything which I have said to you, be on your guard; and “DO NOT MENTION THE NAME OF OTHER GODS, NOR LET THEM BE HEARD FROM YOUR MOUTH. Exod 23:13
You do believe that Jesus knew these scriptures don't you?
So maybe your undersstanding of Jesus quoting the Psalmist in refering to wicked men and judges is wrong and in fact the Psalmist writes…
But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes. Ps 82:7
Were they gods t8? Is this what Jesus is implying?
Jesus gave Paul direct revelation of the Gospel and Paul said…
So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that “THERE IS NO GOD BUT ONE“. For even if there “ARE SO CALLED GODS”, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 1 Cor 8:4, 5
So now please show me in the NT a scripture anywhere where the word “Theos” is applied to an Apostle or follower of Christ.
So you rest your faith on an ambiguos scripture which Jesus quotes to show their own Hypocrosy to promote Henotheism or Polytheism. Jesus knew the Hebrew scriptures and that there is no God but One, neither were there any formed. And all so-called gods by men are not gods at all.
Again you claim that men are gods (theos) but Paul says no such thing…
So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that “THERE IS NO GOD BUT ONE“. For even if there “ARE SO CALLED GODS”, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 1 Cor 8:4, 5
You do believe Pauls words don't you t8 when he says…
“THERE IS NO GOD BUT ONE“. For even if there “ARE SO CALLED GODS”
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 28 2009,20:29) Also prove to me that Satan is the false God of this world?
Nice how you called satan the “God” of this world with a capitol “G”.You have shown your own arrogance against scriptures by doing so. For you have just changed the Translations of over 600 scholars who know far more about you and the use of the word “Theos”.
Is satan the “True God” of this world? Or is he a liar and a Usurper over men?
Is this all you have? Two lonely scriptures that call wicked men and the wicked being satan god.
Now compare that with this…
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Jn 1:1
But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom. Heb 1:8
Or this…
while we wait for the blessed hope–the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, Titus 2:13
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 28 2009,20:29) You are forced to see magistrates and judges as false gods.
I am not forced to see it that way.Of course you are not forced, because you are a Henotheist who believes in more than “One Theos” God!
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 28 2009,20:29) Again, your bias forms your belief.
Looking in the mirror again!WJ
Try again WJ.You commentaries are always biased because you isolate certain scriptures and ignore difficult ones.
If you included other scriptures in your writing, then you might have more credibility.
You neglect to mention this for example:
Psalm 82:6
“I said, 'You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High.'Where is the reference to “false” gods? It actually says sons of the Most High in the same sentence.
When you can give a fair commentary and include all scripture, not just the ones you can twist, then someone actually might take you seriously.
Obviously the words 'theos' and 'elohim' are used in a greater context than you can appreciate and used in a way that doesn't infringe on the truth that the true God is the Most High God. This is the reality we find in scripture and a reality that you continually put your head in the sand in order to ignore.
I think you should give up teaching because teachers incur a stricter judgement and we are responsible for that which we teach. If you can't give up teaching the false doctrine of the trinity for the sake of others, what about doing it for yourself?
T8…….> Amen to that Post. WJ do not realize the term GOD is Elohim , which simply means POWERS, and Our Heavenly Father is the MOST HIGH GOD, in fact Because He is the source of all POWER, He then is the (ONLY) TRUE GOD. As Jesus said, But The Father Has distributed (POWERS) to his creation, some are given More then others , but these powers are a reflection of Gods Power, because He is there source Jesus said to Pilot , He could have no power except it had been given him by GOD. God the FATHER is the Source of (ALL) POWER and He balances it out in His creation which we are Part of, as well as Jesus also. I wish WJ could understand these things. I hope others who are following these debates can come to see How destructive and confusing the teaching of the Trinity really is, it is the source of a host of false assumption and Lies concerning Jesus as well as the FATHER. May GOD help us all to get through all this garbage taught by these deluded teachers. Perhaps He is sharping us up for future service in the Kingdom, as we deal with all these twist and turn posted here. I know it has helped me dig deeper into the word of GOD and become more solid in my thinking and relationship with GOD the FATHER and Jesus. Keep up the good work T8.
peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene
T8 I have read most of the Posts that you and others made. If it says that we are the Sons of God and Jesus is the Son of God, second in command. When we belonged to the W.W.Church of God we had a Feast of Tabernacle titled ” We are Family.” I always think about that when others want to make Jesus the Mighty God. I take the word God as a Family name, and I have no problems with the word God. Our Heavenly Father has a name besides being called God. If you look in the Old Testament God our Heavenly Father is called Jehovah. One more thing, did you ever think if the Holy Spirit is a Person and I said this before, then He is the Father of Jesus. Now how ridiculous is that.
W. J. you also forgetting that the Head of every man is Christ and the Head of a woman is man and the Head of Christ is God, the Father. 1 Corinth. 1:13.
Also the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father, and not a Person, like you and others believe, the trinity doctrine. It has wholes in it. It is a manmade doctrine and not of God.
Peace and Love Irene
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