JOHN 1:1 who is the WORD?

Participant

Gene

Quote (Gene @ Sep. 28 2009,11:33)

WJ……….Quite wrong , GOD HIMSELF is the ROCK that BUILDS the CHURCH.

Gene, why do you always make statements like this without any scripture to support your statements?

Your inference is wrong, but you do not even realize that you just confessed that Jesus is God.

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock “I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Matt 16:18

Now compare that with this…

Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers.* “Be shepherds of the church of God,* WHICH HE BOUGHT WITH HIS OWN BLOOD”. Acts 20:28

Do you see it Gene? Jesus is building the Church and calls it “HIS” Church!, and Acts 20:28 calls it the Church of God which he (God) purchased with his own blood!

Your statement to me is proof that you have not even gone past the “first principles of the oracles of God”.

September 28, 2009 at 3:51 pm#147756

Participant

Quote (Gene @ Sep. 28 2009,11:40)

LOVE AND PEACE ……………..GENE

Ha ha!

This coming from one who doesn't believe “Jesus is building his Church“!

September 28, 2009 at 4:25 pm#147759

GeneBalthrop

Participant

WJ………Please show me where i said Jesus was not building the Church. Again another false assumption. The scripture i qouted shows absolutely Jesus is building , (BY) the ROCK, who is (REVEALING TRUTH INTO PEOPLES MINDS) That IS GOD the FATHER (NOT JESUS> or do you think Jesus was in Heaven and was not flesh and Blood, remember He said “flesh and Blood has (NOT) revealed that unto you Peter. To further add to this JESUS EVEN SAID (NO) MAN (CAN) COME UNTO ME EXCEPT THE (FATHER) (DRAW HIM. SO who do you say is causing the church to be built. It is GOD the FATHER HIMSELF . Go back an reread what i quotes Jesus telling Peter and this time without the distorted Trinitarian Glass on, and it shall become quite clear to you. WHO the (ROCK) Jesus is using to Build the Church Is. Remember Jesus said He could do (NOTHING) of HIMSELF, He is (NOT GOD) WJ. He is subject to GOD now and when He was on earth, saying I alway do what pleases the FATHER. why can't you Trinitarians get that in you heads. You have pushed Jesus to even Higher the GOD the FATHER HIMSELF. PURE Idolatry. IMO

gene

September 28, 2009 at 4:31 pm#147760

GeneBalthrop

Participant

WJ……….Another thing a Shepard is a Watchmen over the Sheep, but not the Owner, we are put in His trust He is the Shepard of the flock of GOD. Why do you TRINITARIANS Keep trying to deal GOD the FATHER out of the picture all the time. That is what Idolatry is.. Jesus said He could do (NOTHING) by HIMSELF what part of that you don't understand. IMO

gene

September 28, 2009 at 4:43 pm#147762

Participant

WorshippingJesus said:

Quote

Hi Jack

True, Joseph is not a good example because Joseph was ruler over all of Egypt by proxy.

However, Christ is the builder and maker of his house and sits “In the throne” with the Father and is worshipped.

In the Hebrew faith this would be idolatry. And in fact I believe those who believe that Jesus is not God sitting in God's throne (Heb 1:8), are committing Idolatry for they are creating a false image of the “Image of the invisible God”, which is Jesus who is God made visible.

The “Right Hand of God” is a metophor of his equality with the Father.

WJ,
Yes and the scripture says that “every creature” in heaven and in earth worships the Father AND THE Lamb

Quote

13And EVERY CREATURE which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, AND UNTO THE LAMB, for ever and ever.

14And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

It says that “every creature in heaven and earth” worships the Lamb (with the Father). The four living creatures say “Amen.” If the Revelation was being written today it would say “every creature but Gene.” He would not say “amen” with the four living creatures. He would say, “No way!”

thinker

September 28, 2009 at 4:52 pm#147763

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 29 2009,03:48)

Gene

Quote (Gene @ Sep. 28 2009,11:33)

WJ……….Quite wrong , GOD HIMSELF is the ROCK that BUILDS the CHURCH.

Gene, why do you always make statements like this without any scripture to support your statements?

Your inference is wrong, but you do not even realize that you just confessed that Jesus is God.

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock “I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Matt 16:18

Now compare that with this…

Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers.* “Be shepherds of the church of God,* WHICH HE BOUGHT WITH HIS OWN BLOOD”. Acts 20:28

Do you see it Gene? Jesus is building the Church and calls it “HIS” Church!, and Acts 20:28 calls it the Church of God which he (God) purchased with his own blood!

Your statement to me is proof that you have not even gone past the “first principles of the oracles of God”.

WJ,
Gene knows all this stuff. He is being stiffnecked about it. He has been given Hebrews 3:1-4 which says that Christ is “counted worthy” of the glory of the builder and that the builder is God. Therefore, Christ is counted worthy to receive glory EQUAL to God

Quote

1Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

2Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.

3For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.

4For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

Christ is “counted worthy” of the glory of the builder. Moreover, Jesus said, “I will build MY church” not God's church showing that there is no difference. This was an idolatrous statement according to Gene's logic because we are God's church. Yet Christ says, “I will build MY church.”

thinker

September 28, 2009 at 4:59 pm#147764

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 28 2009,12:43)

WorshippingJesus said:

Quote

Hi Jack

True, Joseph is not a good example because Joseph was ruler over all of Egypt by proxy.

However, Christ is the builder and maker of his house and sits “In the throne” with the Father and is worshipped.

The “Right Hand of God” is a metophor of his equality with the Father.

WJ,
Yes and the scripture says that “every creature” in heaven and in earth worships the Father AND THE Lamb

Quote

14And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

thinker

True Jack

And their is no distinction between the two.

It doesn't say they worshipped the Father as God and Jesus as the Son!

September 28, 2009 at 5:03 pm#147765

Participant

Gene

Quote (Gene @ Sep. 28 2009,12:25)

WJ………Please show me where i said Jesus was not building the Church. Again another false assumption.

These are your words are they not?

Quote (Gene @ Sep. 28 2009,11:33)

WJ……….Quite wrong , GOD HIMSELF is the ROCK that BUILDS the CHURCH.

Thanks, you just admitted that Jesus is God!

September 28, 2009 at 5:15 pm#147766

GeneBalthrop

Participant

WJ………If i said with that Rock, i will build my house with would you think I was the material that i would use to build the House with?Tell us was Jesus (NOT) Flesh and BLOOD, if you answer that with a Yes then He could not be the one He was referring to Peter about. I mean simple common sense would tell you that. God the FATHER was the ROCK Jesus was using to BUILD the Church of GOD. YOU can't even go to Jesus in order to be part of the Church unless the FATHER draw YOU. And I never Said or admitted Jesus was GOD, Jesus said there is (ONLY) ONE TRUE GOD and He never said HE was that GOD. Not to mention GOD himself said He was the (ONLY) GOD and told us to have (NO)other GOD besides HIM. It doesn't seem to bother you people to Go completely against the truth, are you void of understanding completely, Amazing , you can't even understand simple thing. IMO

gene

September 28, 2009 at 5:30 pm#147767

Participant

Quote (Gene @ Sep. 28 2009,13:15)

gene

Gene

Quote (Gene @ Sep. 28 2009,13:15)

God the FATHER was the ROCK Jesus was using to BUILD the Church of GOD.

This is so twisted and confusing I do not even know where to start.

So Jesus is “Using” the Father to build his Church?

I think you are admitting that “Jesus is building his Church”.

Gene, the foundation of the Church is the Apostles and the Prophets, Jesus Christ being the “Chief Cornerstone”.

Remeber Christ is that Rock that followed them in the wilderness!

This is the One you are rejecting!

September 28, 2009 at 5:54 pm#147768

Participant

Yes WJ,
Jesus is the chief cornerstone in God's church and his brothers form the living stones.[eph2, 1Peter2, Rev 21]
So why did you think he was God?

September 28, 2009 at 6:13 pm#147772

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 28 2009,13:54)

Yes WJ,
Jesus is the chief cornerstone in God's church and his brothers form the living stones.[eph2, 1Peter2, Rev 21]
So why did you think he was God?

Because he is also the “Rock” that followed them in the wilderness and that “Rock” was YHWH!

September 28, 2009 at 6:18 pm#147773

Participant

Hi WJ,
Scripture says THAT ROCK WAS CHRIST not his Father.[1Cor10]
The water was real water for the Jews but was as the Spirit [Jn7]and the rock was as Christ.

September 28, 2009 at 6:32 pm#147776

Not3in1

Participant

Good morning, CA!

Quote

It is because of this harmony that I live that I cannot confess that truth can be contradictory….if that is what you are saying….which I suspect you don't really say when pressed.

I'm afraid that is exactly what I am saying.

You have found the solution to the problem (buying the Catholic answers and never looking back…). I have found another solution to the problem (not buying the Catholic answers and continuing my peaceful trek for truth.).

So what is this PROBLEM that we both had to solve? The problem is “truth”. What is it? Who has it? What does it look like? How will God reveal it? Will we be in trouble if we can't figure it out? Can we choose the wrong one? Is there only one truth?

For you, the church has answered all of these questions. You are satisfied with the answers she has given you. I am not. Does that make the Church right and me wrong? Hmmmm. Can our ideas of truth be opposite and still be true in both of our eyes? You betcha.

This is the problem with truth…… We all want it. But it looks and acts differently depending on which “truth” you subscribe to as an individual.

You could put a dozen people in a room and ask them this question: If you put your bare hand into a fire for a few minutes, would you get burned? Chances are 100% of the folks would say, yes! Because we know that is true.

Now ask the dozen folks this question: Is Jesus God? Well, the results will vary of course. Why?

So there is phyisical truth. You cannot both believe that your hand will not burn in a fire, and also that it will burn in a fire. Proof is available to show you that one side is absolutely true!

And there is spiritual truth. You CAN believe that Jesus is God, and also that Jesus is not God. Kathi believes that Jesus is God but not the Most high God, for instance. My point is that spiritual truth is more flexible. :;):

Quote

Truth is self-validating. Another way to say it is that when we have truth everything comes together on a variety of levels. Everything fits together like a puzzle. No more squares in round holes.

No, no I don't buy this – sorry. There are several members here who could stack their completed puzzles like Dominos if you wish. The pieces all flow nicely together. Their dogma is flawless according to the scriptures they give as evidence. The puzzle is complete. They have heard from God and the Spirit has confirmed – they are set on their version of “truth”. To them they are convinced. The rest of us? Not so much. So do they have the truth or not? Their puzzles are tidy enough?

Quote

I have found something more than this. Truth is irrefutable. All of the pieces come together and stay together when you have truth. This is not to say that you know everything….of course not. This is to say that everything you know or can know is in harmony and you are at peace.

CA, I am happy for you, I really am. I know what it's like to want the truth so bad you would be willing to give your skin for it! The fact that you believe you have found the ultimate truth must be a huge relief. The struggle to “know” is over for you – now you study and learn but you never have to uncover any new truth again. From now on, the Church defines what is true for you. And like you said, it will never change. That is comforting to you. Not to me, however. I believe spiritual truth can change.

I have to tell ya, I did fine in church as long as I asked all the questions the church gave me to ask (because after all, she also provided the answers). But when I started asking questions that the church didn't want me to ask (because she didn't have those answers), it was then that I started to wonder if there was only ONE truth.

I'm much more at peace out here in the wilderness. I find that God meets me here often. There is no need for books or buildings! And I will never again say that God told me something, or that his Spirit told me something….. I don't believe God works that way anymore. If he did, there would be a lot more folks on the same page.

Not all who wander are lost. J.R.R. Tolkien

Love you,
Mandy

September 28, 2009 at 6:49 pm#147777

Participant

Hi not3,
What is truth?
Thy Word is truth.

You too are limiting truth to your measures.
Patience.

Feed on the word and the morning star will shine in your heart.

September 28, 2009 at 8:31 pm#147785

Participant

Gene said:

Quote

YOU can't even go to Jesus in order to be part of the Church unless the FATHER draw YOU.

Gene.

Nonsense Cat! Jesus said that when He was lifted up that HE HIMSELF would draw all men to Himself,

“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.”

You keep denying Him the authority He received at His exaltation.

Before His exaltation: The Father drew men to Christ (John 6:44).

After His exaltation: Jesus draws all men to Himself (John 12:32).

Get it right Cat!

thinker

September 28, 2009 at 8:34 pm#147787

Participant

Hi TT,
God was and is in Christ.
The light of the Spirit of God within him draws the willing.

September 28, 2009 at 8:36 pm#147789

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 29 2009,08:34)

Hi TT,
God was and is in Christ.
The light of the Spirit of God within him draws the willing.

In the days of His flesh. There is no “IN” now that Jesus is spirit again like He was before.

thinker

September 28, 2009 at 8:42 pm#147791