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Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 26 2009,18:02) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 26 2009,12:31) Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 26 2009,11:15) Quote (t8 @ Sep. 26 2009,11:09) If Jesus has any equality with God, then that means that he is NOT God.
Oh my goodness!This sounds like an original idea to me! Or perhaps I've just never heard it put this way.
Sounds true.
Love,
Mandy
I think this depends on our criteria for “equality.” Here's what I mean:No one is equal to me. Jim or Tom could never equal me. I'm unique in a variety of ways.
Now this is different than understanding “equality” in the sense of “all men are created equal” in the American Declaration of Independence. That statement would tend to make a statement refuting the idea that some men are born with saddles on their backs and others were born to ride them. Different concept of equality.
So we would have to define terms.
Right away, though, t8's statement isn't specific enough for me to logically prove it true or false.
I think in order to be equal with anything or anyone, one ….Oh, forget it. This is too deep for me to uncover. I'll let you boys have a go at it.
Chips and dip, anyone? (mingle, mingle…heehee).
I am not a boy, but I will say this.
Why is the Father called the Almighty God and why are there so many Scriptures that say that there is only ONE GOD. Like in
Deut. 4:35
Deut.6:4
1 Corinth. 8:4 And that there is none other God but one.
I believe when they say only one God, that they mean the Father by that.
There are also many Scriptures that say God. If you look into your Concordance.
I think 2 Corinth. 4 is a real good explanation about God, and who Jesus is.
That is all for me tonight, I am haveing oproblems with my eyes and they get all blurry.
IreneQuote (thethinker @ Sep. 26 2009,18:33) I am disappointed that you convoluted the issue the way you did.
So am I!
Read my previous responses to other's regarding my this “convoluted” post.
Love,
MandyQuote (georg @ Sep. 26 2009,13:02) How come that it is so hard to believe that our Heavenly Father is greater then His Son. Even Jesus Himself said so.
John 14:28…My Father is greatee then I.”
Now thinker wants us to believe that it is so before He was a man. But not now since He is seated next to the Father. I don't think so.
Jesus is our Mediator and we go through Him to go to the Father and ask whatever we like. If it His will, He will give it to us. Does that make Jesus equal with the Fasther? Not that I can see it.Irene
To All,
I never said that the Father was greater than Jesus before he became a man.
I have consistently said this was true before He was exalted and glorified. Irene said that Jesus cannot be equal to the Father because we must make our requests to the Father. This is not what the inspired apostle John said. He said that it is Jesus we ask,
Quote These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15 And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him (1 John 5:13-15)
The context is about the building of our faith and confidence toward the Son of God. John clearly states that this is the purpose for His writing. One of the ways our confidence and faith is expressed is by taking our requests to the Son of God Himself. John said that anything we ask of HIM we will receive it.
So Irene's premise that we do not take our requests to the Son is false. Therefore, her conclusion that He is not equal to the Father is false. Jesus said that “ALL authority” has been given to Him. This means He has the power to grant our requests. Even if we were to ask the father nor as Irene believes it would have to go through the Son first. Irene admitted that He is the mediator. This in turn means that He has the authority to send our request through or not. Even as mediator Jesus has “ALL authority.” Irene always tries to find a way to take some of His authority away from Him so she convinces herself that the title “mediator” does that.
I know Irene will say that Jesus said to pray to the Father in His name. But God's people were still under the Jewish dispensation when Jesus said that. We are under a new covenant now. Under the new covenant Jesus has ALL authority. Irene is still under the old covenant. She is like those Union and Confederate soldiers who on kept fighting until they heard that the war was over. Even then some still kept fighting. So I am telling Irene now: The old covenant has been done away and is gone forever never to return. There is One like you who can answer ALL your requests and the proof is in His authority. He said, “ALL authority has been given to Me in heaven and in earth.” ALL authority means exactly that! And His authority EXTENDS THROUGHOUT ALL HEAVEN AND EARTH.
thinker
Hi Jack
Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 26 2009,03:07) The context is about the building of our faith and confidence toward the Son of God. John clearly states that this is the purpose for His writing. One of the ways our confidence and faith is expressed is by taking our requests to the Son of God Himself. John said that anything we ask of HIM we will receive it.
This is truly what the “Mediator” of the better covenant means..You can't just bypass the “Mediator” the “Advocate”!
Jesus is everything to us that the Father is and not just some security gaurd at the gate that we bypass to get to the Father!
If you have the Son you have the Father and you have life!
Blessings WJ
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 26 2009,18:27) Hi CA,
You you are the one able to establish truth?
Yet you have only yourself and your masters to guide you.“Thy Word is truth”
Nick,
As CA has correctly said, “Who told you that the books in your Bible are the Word of God?” The RCC told you. So trash your Bible.thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 26 2009,19:21) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 26 2009,18:27) Hi CA,
You you are the one able to establish truth?
Yet you have only yourself and your masters to guide you.“Thy Word is truth”
Nick,
As CA has correctly said, “Who told you that the books in your Bible are the Word of God?” The RCC told you. So trash your Bible.thinker
I find that really ironic, if the Catholics gave us the Bible then why don't they know that the trinity is a manmade doctrine.
It was Constantine who in A.D. 324 established the Roman Universal Church and made that the official religion of His empire. Before then in A.D. 321 Constantine issued an edit forbidding work on Sunday. Along with that He changed God's Holy days into the Holidays like Christmas nd Easter. which are pagan. From then on many have been deceived.
here are several Books that you can buy bout Ancient History.
The first Christian never kept those Holidays. You can find all Holy Days in Lev. 23. We kept them for 10, but however after Mr. Armstrong and Mr. Tkatch Sr. died and Tkatch Junior took over, He went back believing mainstream doctrine. To us that is so sad.
The 10 years that we kept all Holy Days were so great and I miss them. But in spite of all, God has revealed many truths to us. Praise the LORD.
Blessing IreneQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 26 2009,05:57) Quote (Gene @ Sep. 25 2009,13:05) Thinker……..Doesn't these things Jodi is quoting trouble you even a little, come out of those false teachings of the TRINITY thinker. gene
GeneNone of those scriptures contradict the Trinitarian view!
WJ
Oh yeah right, let's also pretend that the next 3 scriptures do not contradict the Trinity doctrine in any way.John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.Ephesians 4:4-6
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.1 Corinthians 8:6
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.Oh sure in reality they contradict, but when you play the Pretend Game, you can pretend they don't. Is that how the game is played? Am I understanding the rules WJ?
Quote (RokkaMan @ Sep. 23 2009,05:53) Quote (t8 @ Sep. 22 2009,10:34) Here is a snippet of writing I previously wrote in a debate with Isaiah, regarding John 1:1.
(BTW, Isaiah is a self-confessed Trinitarian )
===================================================================To start, please read the 2 examples below and guess which one is correct:
1)
a) In the beginning was the woman,
b) and the woman was with the man
c) and the woman was the man2)
a) In the beginning was the woman,
b) and the woman was with the man
c) and the woman was manThe correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind, or that the woman is a man in the sense that God made man, male and female, as it is written.
Genesis 1:27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.In other words the word 'man' is used as an attribute or to describe one's nature. It is not used in an identity sense like the other instances of the words 'woman' and 'man' in the above correct example.
But in Isaiah's way of thinking regarding 'God' and the 'Word', he chooses number 1, so he sees it like:
a) In the beginning was the Word / similarly - In the beginning was the woman,
b) the Word was with (the) God / similarly - the woman was with the man
c) and the Word was God (himself) / similarly - and the woman was the man
Great analysis, you write very well.But question….
In the beginning was The Word, The Word was with God, and The Word was God.
What is your take on The Word was God.
Is it literally God as in YHWH, or a qualitive God? As in title.
And if the original word was Logos what are the implications then?
Like your president analogy
If I were to say I am president in a sentence…there would have to be an object or reference to fully understand…like if I said…I started a coke company where I have many workers and I am the president….
That sentence wouldn't imply I am the president of the united states, it'd imply, I am the president of the coke company.
So if the reference of John 1:1 states….
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Can we not conclude the reference would be The Beginning
And that The Word was God in or of The beginning
?I'd only like t8 to respond to this please. Seems like the most sensible one around here with an unbiased outlook.
Quote What is your take on The Word was God. It is THE God in all instances except for the last instance in John 1:1c.
In that instance, there is no definite article, which opens up the strong possibility that it is qualitative. Also, if you look at it as identifying God in John 1:1c, then it doesn't make sense, in that the Word is God, which excludes the Father.
Quote If I were to say I am president in a sentence…there would have to be an object or reference to fully understand…like if I said…I started a coke company where I have many workers and I am the president…. That sentence wouldn't imply I am the president of the united states, it'd imply, I am the president of the coke company.
What about, “there are many so-called presidents, but for us Americans, there is one President…
1 Corinthians 8:5-6
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.Quote Can we not conclude the reference would be The Beginning I would say it is the beginning. Before creation.
Revelation 3:14
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 26 2009,19:21) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 26 2009,18:27) Hi CA,
You you are the one able to establish truth?
Yet you have only yourself and your masters to guide you.“Thy Word is truth”
Nick,
As CA has correctly said, “Who told you that the books in your Bible are the Word of God?” The RCC told you. So trash your Bible.thinker
Sure they may have packaged it, but what did they do after that?They eventually denied people the bible until it got into their hands by other means. The RCC's agenda seems to be about controlling the people of God. They only play nice, when they have to, but in those instances, they are dragged there kicking and screaming.
The organisation showed it's true fruit in the dark ages. They extorted money from people through fear, denied them scriptures so they wouldn't know any better, and persecuted those who spoke the truth.
When they had some competition they had to compete and hence a nicer front.
Like any monopoly, they treat customers badly as monopolies tend to abuse their position. Where there is competition, you usually get better treatment. In that scenario if they don't shape up, they lose.
You can bet your bottom dollar that if they had the chance they would rule as they had in the past.
The reformation kind of stuffed things up for them a bit.T8……..Right on , Napoleon dealt the CATHOLIC CHURCH A DEADLY BLOW, breaking there power over Kingdoms of the world, but don't think for a second they would not like it back and continue to work for that end. GOD help us if that ever occurs. Then we will see there true colors as Ireland Has even in our generation. There is no organization on the face of the earth that has caused more torture and violence and corruption to the word of GOD and murders to the people of GOD them that Church has, nothing even close to It. AS History has Shown over and over again. Yet there are decieved people who still listen to Her and Her Blind Daughters the PROTESTANTS as well. May GOD help us and protect Us from this EVIL influence. IMO
gene
Quote (georg @ Sep. 26 2009,03:38) Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 25 2009,19:28) Quote (georg @ Sep. 25 2009,14:45) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 25 2009,13:28) Hi CA,
Your church has no connection with the body of Christ.
A vain and pompous irrelevance that men take too seriously.
You are so right Nick
Math. 15:9 ” But in vauin do they worship Me, teaching for doctrine the commandment of men.”
Irene
Irene,
You quote scripture out of context. It was the unbelieving Jews who rejected Christ that were worshiping God “in vain.” How can trinitarians who exalt Christ be spoken of when it was those who rejected Christ that Jesus was talking about?Just another example of an anti-trinitarian mishandling scripture.
thinker
No thinker whatever was written in that time is also for us.
If you want to believe that, then you have to do away with alot of Scriptures. No my friend. That is about the untruth that you have come up with. Blame eveything on the Jews.
The Caholic Church is worshipping in vain. From the third centutry on. I know I was one of them. And I will say this till I die, THANK YOU GOD FOR CALLING US OUT OF THAT CHURCH.
Peace and Love Irene
This is were I say that the CAtholic Church worships in vain. The Mass is an abomonatin to God. I did not say that to the thinker which He accused me of.
Teaching the dpctrine and commentments of men.
That is what the trinity is. It is a manmade doctrine.
It was said that the trinity doctrine is Quintus Septimus Florens Tertullian beast achievement that He made to Christianity.
He was born in A.D. 155 by Pagan Parents in Cartridge Africas.
He was educasted in philosophy and Greek and Latin literature. He also studied Law. In the dark ages many
did not know how to read or write. But what is our excuse to believe in that Manmasde doctrine.
So again worship in Spirit and in Truth.
IreneIrene said:
Quote I find that really ironic, if the Catholics gave us the Bible then why don't they know that the trinity is a manmade doctrine. Irene,
It is your opinion that the trinity is a man made doctrine. Anyway, I would like to see you stop the CC bashing and engage in thoughtful Biblical analysis more.thinker
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 27 2009,03:04) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 26 2009,05:57) Quote (Gene @ Sep. 25 2009,13:05) Thinker……..Doesn't these things Jodi is quoting trouble you even a little, come out of those false teachings of the TRINITY thinker. gene
GeneNone of those scriptures contradict the Trinitarian view!
WJ
Oh yeah right, let's also pretend that the next 3 scriptures do not contradict the Trinity doctrine in any way.John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.Ephesians 4:4-6
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.1 Corinthians 8:6
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.Oh sure in reality they contradict, but when you play the Pretend Game, you can pretend they don't. Is that how the game is played? Am I understanding the rules WJ?
t8,
You can't see it can you? You gave Ephesians 4:6 which says that there is ONE Lord. So by your logic Jesus can't be Lord. But He is Lord! Right? Christ's statement in John 17:3 is non applicable today. The Father has since installed His Son as God on the throne (Heb. 1:18-10). You can't use scripture to tie God's hands. If God wants to install a man as God on the throne He may do so. All men are accountable to Jesus Christ now.thinker
Irene said:
Quote The Mass is an abomonatin to God.
Irene,
I myself would not participate in a Mass. Neither would I say that it is an “abomination to God” unless I could support that from scripture. Do you have a direct line into God's mind or something?thinker
Hi TT,
There is one Lord for those in the Body of Christ and that is the Lord Jesus, the head of the Body.
Would you prefer to make the One Who should be you God your Lord?
1Cor 8Quote (Gene @ Sep. 27 2009,04:47) T8……..Right on , Napoleon dealt the CATHOLIC CHURCH A DEADLY BLOW, breaking there power over Kingdoms of the world, but don't think for a second they would not like it back and continue to work for that end. GOD help us if that ever occurs. Then we will see there true colors as Ireland Has even in our generation. There is no organization on the face of the earth that has caused more torture and violence and corruption to the word of GOD and murders to the people of GOD them that Church has, nothing even close to It. AS History has Shown over and over again. Yet there are decieved people who still listen to Her and Her Blind Daughters the PROTESTANTS as well. May GOD help us and protect Us from this EVIL influence. IMO gene
Gene,
If I were you I would be worrying about the Muslim radicals instead.thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 27 2009,08:25) Hi TT,
There is one Lord for those in the Body of Christ and that is the Lord Jesus, the head of the Body.
Would you prefer to make the One Who should be you God your Lord?
1Cor 8Hi TT,
Do you think these diversions and straw men really continue to offer your catholic doctrine any validity?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 27 2009,08:27) Hi TT,
Do you think these diversions and straw men really continue to offer your catholic doctrine any validity?
My reply to Gene does not validate my doctrine any more than his original statement invalidates my doctrine. Muslims are anti-trinitarians so you better know that if they take over the world you will be shot if you confess the trinity.thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 27 2009,08:20) t8,
You can't see it can you? You gave Ephesians 4:6 which says that there is ONE Lord. So by your logic Jesus can't be Lord. But He is Lord! Right? Christ's statement in John 17:3 is non applicable today. The Father has since installed His Son as God on the throne (Heb. 1:18-10). You can't use scripture to tie God's hands. If God wants to install a man as God on the throne He may do so. All men are accountable to Jesus Christ now.thinker
God made Jesus Lord not LORD.
Perhaps you should be humble and open enough to see that it is you who cannot see it.I find that Trinitarian's don't seem to be able to grasp this because it deflates much of the foundation they have laid their Trinitarian belief on. And so the reaction at this point is to either wake up to it, or to play the Pretend Game or the Ignore Game.
But believe it, it is true.
Do not confuse this with YHWH. It is the word “kurios”.Once you have grasped that, then Acts 2:36 will make sense to you.
“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”It isn't saying God made Jesus YHWH, and no matter how much you may wish this to be the case, it is simply saying that God made Jesus kurios/lord and christ/messiah.
So what will be your reaction to this truth?
Will it be an embrace or to pray to God about it? Or will the following occur:
John 3:19
“This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evilHopefully it is not the latter.
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