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Quote (georg @ Sep. 21 2009,10:46) Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 21 2009,06:09) Irene said: Quote thinker I don't like anybody that jump's to conclusion on what I believe. And calling me a liar, is judgeing me. Also I have not denied Jesus sitting next to the Father on His Throne, that however does not make Him eqwual with the Father. Irene,
You have said over and over again that Christ's name as God is just a “title” inferring that it doesn't mean anything. Barack Obama has the title of President of the United States. Does Obama's title have meaning or not? Well, he sits in the oval office and officiates as the President. This means that he IS the President.The Father exalted Jesus Christ to the throne and then called Him “GOD.” This means that His title as God has meaning. He officiates as God from the throne. This means that He IS God.
So when you say that the name “God” in reference to Jesus is just a “title” you really deny that He has been exalted. You give mere lip service to His exaltation. At least Bodhitharta is honest. He comes right out sand says that the verses where Christ is called God are corrupt. He denies that such statements are in the original scriptures. Though he is wrong at least he is honest enough to come right out and say that parts of the Bible have been tampered with.
But you do a Mexican hat dance and say “Oh, It's just a title.” It was the Father Himself who said that Jesus is God. Yet you deny what the Father said. So how can the Father be your God?
Don't debate me anymore. I don't care! But be assured that I will continue to post against your silly “title” explanation all your other nonsense.
thinker
Jumping to any conclusion of what others belief, He then is a liar. My Father in Heaven is above all, which I quoted often.
Ephesians 4:6
You to me is a fool, who wants to make others look bad. And that is a Christian? Not to me. That verse in Ephesians also proves that there is no ttrinitry.
Irene (or is it Georg),
The “above all” reference to the Father does NOT include Jesus. Paul said that Jesus Christ is “BEFORE ALL” which means the same thing as “above all.” The Father called Jesus “God”. How can God be above God? I am not trying to make you look bad. You're doing a good job of that yourself. The Father has installed His Son as “God” on the throne. Your “title” explanation is down right silly. It's like saying that Barach Obama is President by “title” but is not really the President.
See, you don't need me to look bad.Why is it that people start out innocent like children believing that words mean what they say? But things happen to some and when they grow older they learn to manipulate words? Return to your former innocence.
You don't see trinitarians manipulate any scriptures. We believe them ALL.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 21 2009,11:31) Quote (georg @ Sep. 21 2009,10:46) Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 21 2009,06:09) Irene said: Quote thinker I don't like anybody that jump's to conclusion on what I believe. And calling me a liar, is judgeing me. Also I have not denied Jesus sitting next to the Father on His Throne, that however does not make Him eqwual with the Father. Irene,
You have said over and over again that Christ's name as God is just a “title” inferring that it doesn't mean anything. Barack Obama has the title of President of the United States. Does Obama's title have meaning or not? Well, he sits in the oval office and officiates as the President. This means that he IS the President.The Father exalted Jesus Christ to the throne and then called Him “GOD.” This means that His title as God has meaning. He officiates as God from the throne. This means that He IS God.
So when you say that the name “God” in reference to Jesus is just a “title” you really deny that He has been exalted. You give mere lip service to His exaltation. At least Bodhitharta is honest. He comes right out sand says that the verses where Christ is called God are corrupt. He denies that such statements are in the original scriptures. Though he is wrong at least he is honest enough to come right out and say that parts of the Bible have been tampered with.
But you do a Mexican hat dance and say “Oh, It's just a title.” It was the Father Himself who said that Jesus is God. Yet you deny what the Father said. So how can the Father be your God?
Don't debate me anymore. I don't care! But be assured that I will continue to post against your silly “title” explanation all your other nonsense.
thinker
Jumping to any conclusion of what others belief, He then is a liar. My Father in Heaven is above all, which I quoted often.
Ephesians 4:6
You to me is a fool, who wants to make others look bad. And that is a Christian? Not to me. That verse in Ephesians also proves that there is no ttrinitry.
Irene (or is it Georg),
The “above all” reference to the Father does NOT include Jesus. Paul said that Jesus Christ is “BEFORE ALL” which means the same thing as “above all.” The Father called Jesus “God”. How can God be above God? I am not trying to make you look bad. You're doing a good job of that yourself. The Father has installed His Son as “God” on the throne. Your “title” explanation is down right silly. It's like saying that Barach Obama is President by “title” but is not really the President. See, you don't need me to look bad.Why is it that people start out innocent like children believing that words mean what they say? But things happen to some and when they grow older they learn to manipulate words? Return to your former innocence.
You don't see trinitarians manipulate any scriptures. We believe them ALL.
thinker
Really so do you then believe this Scripture? It proves the trinity wrong. Ephesians 4:6 says this:” one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all and in you all. No trinity. I deny nothing. Jesus is my Savior. Why would I want to deny Him? No more and this time I mean it. Don't expect any more answeres from me. Also
John 17:5 ” And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory I had with You before the World was.”
You see Jesus was with the Father before all was created, He is the firstborn of all creation. Col. 1:15-17 and Rev. 3:14 look it up, if you don't believe me.
IreneIrene said:
Quote Really so do you then believe this Scripture? It proves the trinity wrong. Ephesians 4:6 says this:” one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all and in you all. No trinity. I deny nothing. Jesus is my Savior. Why would I want to deny Him? No more and this time I mean it. Don't expect any more answeres from me. Also
John 17:5 ” And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory I had with You before the World was.”
You see Jesus was with the Father before all was created, He is the firstborn of all creation. Col. 1:15-17 and Rev. 3:14 look it up, if you don't believe me.
Irene
I thought you were not going to debate me? Explain HOW the scriptures you give prove the trinity wrong. Paul said that Christ is “all in all.” This does not take away from the Father. So the Father's being “above all” does not take away from Christ.thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 21 2009,11:04) Hi Georg,
Are you calling others liars and fools or is just a language issue or misunderstanding?
It was a matter of speaking because of what the thinker said to me. He said that I deny Jesus. Which I never do. I said that in John 1:1 when it says God, that God is a title. And please notice that it is Irene who is writing this. Again we had to use another users name, to be able to post. I have no idea why that is.
My Husbands name is Georg. It is a German name and not George. He should have capitalized Georg though. One more thing, others get so frustrated with the way the thinker writes things that they stop posting to Him. And I am following suit. I had enough of his accusation. I don't need that at my age.
Peace and Love Ireneyohanan
i spoke not from myself, but the father who sent me, has given me a command, what i should say and what i should speak and i know the his command is ever leasting life, therefore whatever i speak as the father has said to me, so i speak
12.49-50Quote (princess of the king @ Sep. 21 2009,13:54) yohanan
i spoke not from myself, but the father who sent me, has given me a command, what i should say and what i should speak and i know the his command is ever leasting life, therefore whatever i speak as the father has said to me, so i speak
12.49-50
What is yohanan?
IreneQuote (thethinker @ Sep. 19 2009,11:21) Regardless, t8's view that the word “God” in 1:1c should be taken qualitatively does no harm to trinitarianism at all,
You show your ignorance here.Trinitarians beleive that Jesus is God in identity, therefore saying that the Word Was God himself, is actually saying that Jesus is God.
If Jesus is a divine being who was born of God, then he would rightly be an image of God, and you could say that the fullness if God dwells in him. In other words he has divine nature.
Divine nature and Spirit comes from God, the Father. He is the source of both.
Add that to the fact that we will be like Jesus and he will call us brothers, and I think the picture starts to emerge. That picture is certainly not a God that is 3 persons, but one God who shares his nature. A God who has children/sons.
In Col. 1:15-17 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.'
verse 16 Foe by Him aLL things were created that are in Heaven and that are
on earth………
verse 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
When you read on in verse 17 He also was the firstborn of the dead, so in all things He has preeminence.
He was first in all.
Rev. 3:14…” These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the beginning of the creation of God.”
And in John 17:5 Jesus says this to His Father:” And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory I had with You before the world was.”
Jesus emptied Himself and became a Servant and die for our sins. What a great God and Savior we have. To send His Son into the world that through Him all might be saved.
I also remembered something. When God is use in Scripture I said tha God is a title, is because the translators stood in AW of Jehovah and did not want to misspell His name and used God instead.
I just don't remember were I read that.
Peace and Love IreneThank you t8 for all you do for us. I really enjoy this website. It gives me the opertunity to go deeper into Gods Word the Bible, and fellowship with those that are nice. I have learned so much. Others challenge me too. God is indeed a God of Love. He has shown me so many things. And it has to be Gods Holy Spirit in us, to understand the things of God. For that I am forever thankful for.
Peace and Love Irene
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 21 2009,20:50) Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 19 2009,11:21) Regardless, t8's view that the word “God” in 1:1c should be taken qualitatively does no harm to trinitarianism at all,
You show your ignorance here.Trinitarians beleive that Jesus is God in identity, therefore saying that the Word Was God himself, is actually saying that Jesus is God.
If Jesus is a divine being who was born of God, then he would rightly be an image of God, and you could say that the fullness if God dwells in him. In other words he has divine nature.
Divine nature and Spirit comes from God, the Father. He is the source of both.
Add that to the fact that we will be like Jesus and he will call us brothers, and I think the picture starts to emerge. That picture is certainly not a God that is 3 persons, but one God who shares his nature. A God who has children/sons.
I am totally aware what trinitarians believe. Apparently you have not seen my posts in the past inwhich I have stated that I am not a traditional trinitarian. You evaded my point. The reading of “theos” in John 1:1c as qualitative does no harm to trinitarianism.What God was the word was. It means that all that God was in form and nature the Word was. The scripture no where says that we will partake of the divine form. It says that we are partakers of the divine nature which has to do with the communicable attributes of God such as love, mercy kindness and so forth.
Again, Christ pre-existed in God's form. No where is it said that men will partake of the divine form. You fail to distinguish between God's incommunicable nature (form) and His communicable nature (character). We are partakers of the divine CHARACTER.
thinker
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 21 2009,20:50) Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 19 2009,11:21) Regardless, t8's view that the word “God” in 1:1c should be taken qualitatively does no harm to trinitarianism at all,
You show your ignorance here.Trinitarians beleive that Jesus is God in identity, therefore saying that the Word Was God himself, is actually saying that Jesus is God.
If Jesus is a divine being who was born of God, then he would rightly be an image of God, and you could say that the fullness if God dwells in him. In other words he has divine nature.
Divine nature and Spirit comes from God, the Father. He is the source of both.
Add that to the fact that we will be like Jesus and he will call us brothers, and I think the picture starts to emerge. That picture is certainly not a God that is 3 persons, but one God who shares his nature. A God who has children/sons.
T8……….Amen, Amen, brother, you have rightly said this. IMOpeace and love to you and yours………………gene
Thinker………we are called Brothers of Jesus “for he is the first born of (MANY BROTHERS), and again we are Heirs and (JOINT) Heirs with Jesus. Why do you Trinitarians try so hard to separate Jesus from our LIKENESS, is it because you truly do not believe GOD is capable of perfecting His Children and Giving them His true nature. Or is it because You KNOW GOD IS SEPARATE from all others, and so you can't believe Jesus is a GOD and at the same time believe He is a MAN the same as we ARE, right. The whole Point of GOD taking a ordinary (MAN) and perfecting HIM by (HIS) SPIRIT is to show Us we can (ALSO) be PERFECTED and BECOME EXACTLY LIKE JESUS IS> YOU TRINITARIANS (DESTROY) THIS TRUTH AND WILL BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR IT, unless you repent of you false teachings. IMO
gene
Quote (Gene @ Sep. 22 2009,06:47) Thinker………we are called Brothers of Jesus “for he is the first born of (MANY BROTHERS), and again we are Heirs and (JOINT) Heirs with Jesus. Why do you Trinitarians try so hard to separate Jesus from our LIKENESS, is it because you truly do not believe GOD is capable of perfecting His Children and Giving them His true nature. Or is it because You KNOW GOD IS SEPARATE from all others, and so you can't believe Jesus is a GOD and at the same time believe He is a MAN the same as we ARE, right. The whole Point of GOD taking a ordinary (MAN) and perfecting HIM by (HIS) SPIRIT is to show Us we can (ALSO) be PERFECTED and BECOME EXACTLY LIKE JESUS IS> YOU TRINITARIANS (DESTROY) THIS TRUTH AND WILL BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR IT, unless you repent of you false teachings. IMO gene
Brothers by adoption.thinker
Thinker………Another false statement , where does it say we are brothers of Jesus (BY) Adoption, is there no end to you Trinitarians adding you personal opinions contrary to scriptures? The only Place Adoption is mentioned is in relation ship to GOD, and even Jesus was adopted this way, Why, because it is (IMPOSSIBLE) for GOD to recreate another (TRUE) GOD. AS Jesus said (FOR THOU ART THE (ONLY) TRUE GOD> What part of that don't you get thinker?
gene
Adam was the Son of God,
Lu 3:38 the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.
Adam sinned, he did not have faith in God, he went against God’s instructions, and therefore went from immortality to death. Adam's flesh saw corruption, he lost the position of having dominion over the earth.
However it was the Father’s plan from the very beginning that through one man sin and death would come, but with another man righteousness and eternal life would come. Jesus overcame the world it says because he was born of God, to be born of God it says, is to have faith, and Faith is developed through the calling and work of God’s Spirit.
Ro 8:23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.
Ro 9:4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises;
Ga 4:5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.
1Jo 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him.
1Jo 5:4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world–our faith.
Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors–not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
Mt 12:50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”
Mr 3:35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.”
Lu 2:40 And the Child grew and became strong in spirit, filled with wisdom; and the grace of God was upon Him.
Just as we need to grow in the wisdom of God and receive His grace, so did Jesus!
Ezekiel 36:25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. 28 Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God.
Matthew 12:18 “Behold! My Servant whom I have chosen, My Beloved in whom My soul is well pleased! I will put My Spirit upon Him, And He will declare justice to the Gentiles.
We are brothers and sister in Christ, as our Heavenly Father put His Spirit in Jesus, He will do the same for us. We are ALL united in the adoption of God's Spirit.
Hi Jodi,
To be a son of God you must be born again from above.[Jn3]
Come now to Jesus to receive of the fountain of ETERNAL life-God's Spirit.[Jn7]
Without that water men die when the cord breaks and the bucket falls to the bottom of the well[ecc12]Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 22 2009,03:48) I am totally aware what trinitarians believe. Apparently you have not seen my posts in the past inwhich I have stated that I am not a traditional trinitarian. You evaded my point. The reading of “theos” in John 1:1c as qualitative does no harm to trinitarianism.
Except that we can partake of divine nature and Jesus said “Ye are theos” to those whom he was speaking to.A qualitative use of “theos” is applied to others outside God himself. Scripture testifies to this.
God in identity is the Father. “Theos/god” qualitatively speaking is used in some instances of men, angels, the son.
So John 1:1 is not a proof verse for the Trinity if you see the last word as qualitative. If it was, then you would have to add some men and angels into the Trinity and then you wouldn't have a Trinity anymore.
If you say that the Word was God as in God in identity, then you do so at the expense of God the Father.
e.g., Obama is the president means that I am not the president because Obama is.
But I could say that many are presedential, but that there is one president.The Word was (the Most High) God, means that the Father is not because the Word is. Therefore a qualitative view is likely when you view it this way. Even some Trinitarian scholars understand this, though not all.
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