JOHN 1:1 who is the WORD?

[GeneBalthrop]

Gsilva…………….Before Abraham does not mean Jesus meant in Existence as a Being, but He was referencing He was in GOD'S Plan from the beginning before Abraham. GOD Said that the womens (SEED) (Jesus) would bruise the head of the serpent,Not some preexistent incarnate being would. This places Jesus before Abraham in the Plan of GOD. There is no evidence of any activity of Jesus shown in scripture before His berth as a Human being , Why, because that is when He came into existence, He was the fulfillment of what GOD said in Genesis.There He was indeed before Abraham was mentioned in scripture. To attach a super human, or diem-god status to Jesus by saying He preexisted, only serves to separate Him from OUR exactness, as Trinitarians and Preexistences do. IMO

peace and love to you and yours……………..gene

[gollamudi]

Amen to that post brother Gene.

[NickHassan]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 26 2009,07:38)

Quote (thethinker @ July 25 2009,12:46) Quote (Gene @ July 26 2009,04:35) Thinker………No brother their ONE Shepard , but he is (NOT) the owner of the Sheep , there is only (ONE) owner and that is GOD the Father. The Father has put us in the custody of Jesus, it is very much like the analogy of the vine, the vine is part of the branches, but the life water (spirit) is given by one (the FATHER) and ministers to both the vine and it's branches. Jesus is one of US do not separate Him from yourself, brother. Thinker I implore you by the sure mercies of our GOD and FATHER , COME OUT OF THAT FALSE TRINITARIAN RELIGION, and all these things will fall into place, why should you fail because of those LAIRS. with great love and worry and prayer …………………………your brother gene Gene, He is the owner of the sheep. He explicitly said “MY sheep hear MY voice and I know them and they follow ME. And I give unto them eternal life….” You believe falsely! Your view implies that there are two shepherds. Yet you fault trinitarians. thinker Hi Jack How true. “But they refused to pay attention; stubbornly they turned their backs and stopped up their ears. Zech 7:11 they have ears, but cannot hear, nor is there breath in their mouths. Ps 135:17 WJ

Hi WJ,
Where did you ears hear God teach about your trinity god?
You teach it as if God did, but He did not do so.

[GeneBalthrop]

Nick………Amen to that!, brother. What i see in these Trinitarian doctrines is the spirit of delusion as GOD said He would send on them who love not the truth. 2 Ths 2……..”for God shall send to them a DELUDING spirit in order for them to believe (THE LIE)”, the lie is Jesus being preached as a GOD. Which He will Abolish at His return as scripture says. Then where will these appear seeing they have preached falsehood, and have have advanced the false way, these IDOLATERS WILL SUFFER THE FATE OF THEIR DOING.

peace and love to you and yours……………………gene

[KangarooJack]

Gene said:

Quote

thinker……..Jesus said “YOURS THEY ARE and (THOU) givest them unto Me. The same as a owner of Sheep gives (HIS) Sheep into the Hands of a Sheppard to Sheppard them. Jesus said no man (CAN) come unto me EXCEPT the FATHER DRAW HIM. It is the FATHER who owns the Sheep and Jesus Sheppard's them. God the FARTHER said (ALL) Sould are MINE and that includes Jesus' soul also. Why do (ALL Trinitarians try so hard to push the FATHER out of the PICTURE. Interesting, Jesus never did that. Thinker dump the garbage and come out of those false teachings while there is still time brother.

Gene,
There you go again selecting the Scriptures you will believe and discarding the passages you don't like. Trinitarians do not push the Father out of the picture. Anti-Christians do not  accept that the Father exalted Jesus. Anti-trinitarians do not like to talk about the exalted Jesus.

Jesus did NOT say that the sheep ARE the Father's. He said that the sheep WERE the Father's.

Quote

6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.

Jesus said that the sheep “WERE” the Father's. The Father GAVE the sheep to Christ. This means that Christ is both Owner and Shepherd.

Jesus inherited the sheep,

Quote

8 Ask of Me, and I will give You         The nations for Your inheritance,         And the ends of the earth for Your possession.

There it is! God gave His people to Christ. He received the sheep as His inheritance. The sheep are His possession. This means that Jesus is the owner. If your father leaves you an inheritance you become the owner. Jesus is both the Owner and the Shepherd of the sheep. The Father cannot take back anything He has given His Son. The Son could give it back willingly. But the Father cannot take it back! The Father is not a man that He should repent. He is under His own oath. You need to think more thoroughly about these things.

thinker

[Worshipping Jesus]

Hi all

Those who deny the written words of God to satisfy their own manmade doctrines are of the Spirit of ant-christ.

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 1 Tim 4:1, 2

They pick and choose scriptures that suit their manmade doctrines. They “pit” scriptures against themselves rather than letting scriptures interpret themselves.

Rather than taking the simple reading of the Scriptures they add all kinds of explanations and apologetics to support their false theories.

For example, John 1:1 says the Word was with God and the Word was God. Verse 14 of the same chapter tells us who the “Word” was. 1 John 1:1-3 and Rev 19:13 confirms this.

But, of course those who do not take the scriptures literally have to explain it all away.

Another example is Jesus pre-existence. The simple reading of scriptures with their verb tenses clearly teach Jesus existed before Abraham.

Jesus with his own words claim that he existed before and came down from heaven.

For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. John 6:38

The language here is clear for anyone with an open mind. The entire context of John chapter 6 verifies his meaning, but to make sure we get the point he says…

[What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? John 6:62

Jesus says many times he came from the Father and is going back to the Father.

John 17:5 is very clear to the honest reader.

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with “the glory which I had with thee before the world was. John 17:5

A child can read these words and know that “Jesus came down from heaven” and that “before the foundation of the world” he shared the Fathers Glory.

But rather than taking the simple meaning of the words as being true, the apologist have to have explanation upon explanation to explain why Jesus did not say what he said.

They accuse Trinitarians for twisting the scriptures, when it is the Trinitarians that believe the simple reading of the scriptures and do not pit them against themselves but rather believe all of them as they read without a bunch of apologetics.

For instance John 1:1, 20:28, Acts 20:28, Isa 9:6, Rev 1:8 etc.

An example of unambiguous scripture that calls Jesus the “Great God and Saviour” is Titus 2:13.

while we wait for the blessed hope–the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

The GSR plus the context itself is proof that the Trinitarians are right in calling Jesus their Great God and Saviour.

Jesus said in the last days there would be false teachers and false prophets and if it were possible they could deceive the very elect.

Scriptures interpret themselves and it would do men good to believe them as they are written.

WJ

[KangarooJack]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 29 2009,05:28)

Hi all Those who deny the written words of God to satisfy their own manmade doctrines are of the Spirit of ant-christ. Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 1 Tim 4:1, 2 They pick and choose scriptures that suit their manmade doctrines. They “pit” scriptures against themselves rather than letting scriptures interpret themselves. Rather than taking the simple reading of the Scriptures they add all kinds of explanations and apologetics to support their false theories. For example, John 1:1 says the Word was with God and the Word was God. Verse 14 of the same chapter tells us who the “Word” was. 1 John 1:1-3 and Rev 19:13 confirms this. But, of course those who do not take the scriptures literally have to explain it all away. Another example is Jesus pre-existence. The simple reading of scriptures with their verb tenses clearly teach Jesus existed before Abraham. Jesus with his own words claim that he existed before and came down from heaven. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. John 6:38 The language here is clear for anyone with an open mind. The entire context of John chapter 6 verifies his meaning, but to make sure we get the point he says… [What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? John 6:62 Jesus says many times he came from the Father and is going back to the Father. John 17:5 is very clear to the honest reader. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with “the glory which I had with thee before the world was. John 17:5 A child can read these words and know that “Jesus came down from heaven” and that “before the foundation of the world” he shared the Fathers Glory. But rather than taking the simple meaning of the words as being true, the apologist have to have explanation upon explanation to explain why Jesus did not say what he said. They accuse Trinitarians for twisting the scriptures, when it is the Trinitarians that believe the simple reading of the scriptures and do not pit them against themselves but rather believe all of them as they read without a bunch of apologetics. For instance John 1:1, 20:28, Acts 20:28, Isa 9:6, Rev 1:8 etc. An example of unambiguous scripture that calls Jesus the “Great God and Saviour” is Titus 2:13. while we wait for the blessed hope–the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, The GSR plus the context itself is proof that the Trinitarians are right in calling Jesus their Great God and Saviour. Jesus said in the last days there would be false teachers and false prophets and if it were possible they could deceive the very elect. Scriptures interpret themselves and it would do men good to believe them as they are written. WJ

WJ,
Great post bro! Below I reproduce an excerpt from an Islamic website I used yesterday on another thread. Please note the bold lettering:

Quote

Some of the biggest misconceptions that many non-Muslims have about Islam have to do with the word “Allah.”  For various reasons, many people have come to believe that Muslims worship a different God than Christians and Jews.  This is totally false, since “Allah” is simply the Arabic word for “God” – and there is only One God.  Let there be no doubt – Muslims worship the God of Noah, Abraham, Moses, David and Jesus – peace be upon them all.  However, it is certainly true that Jews, Christians and Muslims all have different concepts of Almighty God.  For example, Muslims – like Jews – reject the Christian beliefs of the Trinity and the Divine Incarnation.  This, however, does not mean that each of these three religions worships a different God – because, as we have already said, there is only One True God.  Judaism, Christianity and Islam all claim to be “Abrahamic Faiths”, and all of them are also classified as “monotheistic.”  However, Islam teaches that other religions have, in one way or another, distorted and nullified a pure and proper belief in Almighty God by neglecting His true teachings and mixing them with man-made ideas.

Please note that Muslims correctly acknowledge that the doctrines of the incarnation and the Trinity are “Christian” and that Trinitarians are monotheists. Even bodhitharta has conceded this. This is historically the case. So from now on let the anti-trinitarians here acknowlege this. The doctrines of the incarnation of God and of the Trinity are Christian doctrines. Let the anti-trinitarians dissent all they want. And we appreciate the opportunity provided us here to give a defense for our faith. But be historically accurate.

The question is not whether Trinitarianism is Christian. It is Christian. The question is this: Are Christians right or wrong.

thinker

[GeneBalthrop]

Thinker…………Trinitarians claim to be Christians , but in fact are members of the Apostate Church whose Mother is the Catholic Church, There are only a few (TRUE) “Christians”, who believe in (ONLY) ONE TRUE GOD) and NO other GODS. These are the True followers of Jesus, all others are of PAGAN Origins. Prey Thinker perhaps GOD will remove the Trinity Delusion from you. Its certainly is my desire for you brother.

Peace and much love ………………………gene

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Gene @ July 31 2009,11:17)

Thinker…………Trinitarians claim to be Christians , but in fact are members of the Apostate Church whose Mother is the Catholic Church, There are only a few (TRUE) “Christians”, who believe in (ONLY) ONE TRUE GOD) and NO other GODS. These are the True followers of Jesus, all others are of PAGAN Origins. Prey Thinker perhaps GOD will remove the Trinity Delusion from you. Its certainly is my desire for you brother. Peace and much love ………………………gene

Hi Gene

If Trinitarians are of the Apostate Church because they believe that God is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit,

Then you also are Apostate for believing in the Catholic doctrine of the Death and burial and resurection of Jesus!

Also they believe that Jesus is the Son of God.

So your whole argument is circular.

Get real Gene, you are denying scriptures that call Jesus God and you accuse Trinitarians of being Apostate!

while we wait for the blessed hope–the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, Titus 2:13

Are you waiting for him Gene because everytime that Paul uses the Word “Appearing” he is refering to Jesus?

WJ

[Jodi Lee]

Come on now WJ, Circular?

While the Apostate Church might have a few things correct, it is the ones that are False that obviously make them the apostate church. Gene does not follow the FALSE beliefs of which makes the RCC the false church. To be apart of the Apostate Church would mean that you are following THOSE beliefs of which MAKE IT the false church.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Jodi Lee @ July 31 2009,11:50)

Come on now WJ, Circular? While the Apostate Church might have a few things correct, it is the ones that are False that obviously make them the apostate church. Gene does not follow the FALSE beliefs of which makes the RCC the false church. To be apart of the Apostate Church would mean that you are following THOSE beliefs of which MAKE IT the false church.

Hi Jodi

Your argument is also circular because saying that something is false does not mean that it is.

I just posted an unambiguous scripture that supports the truth of the Trinity!

The Logic that because one holds to a particular doctrine of a false church does not mean that what the false church teaches as truth is always false as I just showed you.

WJ

[GeneBalthrop]

WJ………So now you don't believe Jesus really died either? Jesus said in Rev that He was (DEAD) now you say I am apostate because i agree with Him . Interesting How you vacillate in your Trinitarians teaching . You find ONE scripture that you can bend to mean something it doesn't and neglect Hundreds that show different. This reminds me of a person who is straining out a gnat and swallowing a elephant. Haven't you ever noticed how many scripture the trinity doctrine neglects to establish it false teachings. WJ You say that we are anti-Christs, But John said that those who deny Jesus as coming as a flesh and blood being is anti-Christ . Now lets see who that fits> You as well as the GNOSTIC S all claim that Jesus Is came from the presents of GOD as a incarnated Being of some Kind infact you say He was GOD from GOD, exactly as the gnostic of Johns time were saying. But John say differently He say If we Don't see Jesus as coming (into existence) in the Flesh , that is the Spirit of Ant-Christ.  Interesting seem you and John disagree, on the term for anti-Christ.

Another thing you say correctly that in the latter days certainly things would occur. But you fail to understand when the latter days started. Let me help you here, How many days are there in a week , seven right now when does the latter days of the week start, after the middle of Wednesday right, then we can say the days past it are the later days of the week , Now GOD has established seven thousand years for His plan on earth, there were two thousand before the flood and two thousand until Christ was born, and His spirit was poured out on Man Kind, (in the latter day I shall pour forth of My spirit saith the Lord on all flesh). The latter days were the days after Jesus even until Now brother. The false teaching of the TRINITY started at the council of Nicia in 325 AD (a latter day teaching) . Think about it WJ.

Peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Aug. 01 2009,03:50)

Come on now WJ, Circular? While the Apostate Church might have a few things correct, it is the ones that are False that obviously make them the apostate church. Gene does not follow the FALSE beliefs of which makes the RCC the false church. To be apart of the Apostate Church would mean that you are following THOSE beliefs of which MAKE IT the false church.

Jodi Lee,
If you love both God and Jesus then you serve two masters. And Jesus said that one cannot serve two masters for he will love the one and hate the other. If you love God you must hate Jesus. If you love Jesus you must hate God. Which is it for you?

thinker

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Gene @ Aug. 01 2009,04:13)

WJ………So now you don't believe Jesus really died either? Jesus said in Rev that He was (DEAD) now you say I am apostate because i agree with Him . Interesting How you vacillate in your Trinitarians teaching . You find ONE scripture that you can bend to mean something it doesn't and neglect Hundreds that show different. This reminds me of a person who is straining out a gnat and swallowing a elephant. Haven't you ever noticed how many scripture the trinity doctrine neglects to establish it false teachings. WJ You say that we are anti-Christs, But John said that those who deny Jesus as coming as a flesh and blood being is anti-Christ . Now lets see who that fits> You as well as the GNOSTIC S all claim that Jesus Is came from the presents of GOD as a incarnated Being of some Kind infact you say He was GOD from GOD, exactly as the gnostic of Johns time were saying. But John say differently He say If we Don't see Jesus as coming (into existence) in the Flesh , that is the Spirit of Ant-Christ.  Interesting seem you and John disagree, on the term for anti-Christ. Another thing you say correctly that in the latter days certainly things would occure. But you fail to understand when the latter days started. Let me help you here, How many days are there in a week , seven right not when idoesthe latter days of the week start, after the middle of wednesday right, then we can say the days past it are the later days of the week , Now GOD has established seven thousand years for His plan on earth, there were two thousand before the flood and two thousand until Christ was born, and His spirit was poured out on Man Kind, (in the latter day I shall pour forth of My spirit saith the Lord on all flesh). The latter days were the days after Jesus even until Now brother. The false teaching of the TRINITY started at the council of Nicia in 325 AD (a latter day teaching) . Think about it WJ. Peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene

Gene,
Where do you get off accusing people of hanging on to one scripture to the exclusion of others? You are the master! You accept what Jesus said about the “only true God” in reference to the Father. But you deny what John said about Jesus Christ being the “true God and eternal life” (1 John 5:20).

Take the beam out of your own eye. You have not yet explained John's statement. You ignore it every time I bring it up.

thinker

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Gene @ July 31 2009,12:13)

WJ………So now you don't believe Jesus really died either? Jesus said in Rev that He was (DEAD) now you say I am apostate because i agree with Him . Interesting How you vacillate in your Trinitarians teaching . You find ONE scripture that you can bend to mean something it doesn't and neglect Hundreds that show different. This reminds me of a person who is straining out a gnat and swallowing a elephant. Haven't you ever noticed how many scripture the trinity doctrine neglects to establish it false teachings. WJ You say that we are anti-Christs, But John said that those who deny Jesus as coming as a flesh and blood being is anti-Christ . Now lets see who that fits> You as well as the GNOSTIC S all claim that Jesus Is came from the presents of GOD as a incarnated Being of some Kind infact you say He was GOD from GOD, exactly as the gnostic of Johns time were saying. But John say differently He say If we Don't see Jesus as coming (into existence) in the Flesh , that is the Spirit of Ant-Christ.  Interesting seem you and John disagree, on the term for anti-Christ. Another thing you say correctly that in the latter days certainly things would occure. But you fail to understand when the latter days started. Let me help you here, How many days are there in a week , seven right not when idoesthe latter days of the week start, after the middle of wednesday right, then we can say the days past it are the later days of the week , Now GOD has established seven thousand years for His plan on earth, there were two thousand before the flood and two thousand until Christ was born, and His spirit was poured out on Man Kind, (in the latter day I shall pour forth of My spirit saith the Lord on all flesh). The latter days were the days after Jesus even until Now brother. The false teaching of the TRINITY started at the council of Nicia in 325 AD (a latter day teaching) . Think about it WJ. Peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene

Gene

As usual you do not address any of my points or scriptures but just spat of the same ole opologetics.

Gene it is you who denies that Jesus came in the flesh, for the term does not mean born at all.

Johns language is speaking in light of his teaching in John chapter 1, and the first three verses of 1 John 1:1-3, 14. The word was with God and the Word was God and the Word was made flesh and tabenacled among us.

Show us Gene where john says that to deny Jesus birth is to be antichrist! Why use the term “Came in the flesh”? Why not say that “to deny Jesus was born as a man” you are antichrist?

Its not there is it?

1 John 1:1-3 sets the tone for the Epistles which also says the Word was with God in the beginning!

Open your eyes Gene and stop accusing Trinitarians as being Apostate for it is you who denies the scriptures like John 1:1, 20:28 and Titus 2:13 just to mention a few.

WJ

[Jodi Lee]

Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 01 2009,04:20)

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Aug. 01 2009,03:50) Come on now WJ, Circular? While the Apostate Church might have a few things correct, it is the ones that are False that obviously make them the apostate church. Gene does not follow the FALSE beliefs of which makes the RCC the false church. To be apart of the Apostate Church would mean that you are following THOSE beliefs of which MAKE IT the false church. Jodi Lee, If you love both God and Jesus then you serve two masters. And Jesus said that one cannot serve two masters for he will love the one and hate the other. If you love God you must hate Jesus. If you love Jesus you must hate God. Which is it for you? thinker

Hi Thinker,

Interesting perspective! It never ceases to amaze me how people see things so differently.

Mt 6:24 “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.

Are you trying to use the following scripture as proof that Jesus and the Father are both God?

Are you trying to say that the above scripture means that I cannot serve both God and Jesus as masters because there can only be ONE master?

Your thinking has error IMO.

Jesus is our mediator to the ONE and ONLY TRUE God the Father,which scripture unequivocally states. Jesus is our master not because he himself is God but because His Father MADE him such, according to His will and His purpose, that he would be an example of how a man should follow and worship the ONE TRUE God the Father.

John 4:23 “But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.

Joh 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Hebrews 1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

God is our Master, and He has appointed a man, resurrected from the dead who exists with FLESH and BONE, to be His mediator, thus making Jesus also our master through God. By following Jesus we are following our MASTER God the Father.  

John 17:24 Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me. 26 And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”

Thinker you said, “If you love both God and Jesus then you serve two masters. And Jesus said that one cannot serve two masters for he will love the one and hate the other. If you love God you must hate Jesus. If you love Jesus you must hate God. Which is it for you?”

Jesus said that you cannot serve God and serve mammon. The two masters of which Jesus refers to, that a person must choose between, is that of God and His goodness which is IN Jesus, and that of EVIL.

The One True God the Father who is our Master appointed us a human master, whom God wants us to follow and love.

Jesus is not the head master, he follows and does the will of the head master, which is clearly shown to be his Father.  

John 14:28 The Father is greater than I
John 10:29  My Father is greater than all
1 Corinthians 11:3   The head of Christ is God
1 Corinthians 3:23  Christ is God's
Matthew 20:23   Not mine to give but my Father
1 Corinthians 15:24-28   Son himself subject to Father

By serving Jesus, whom God appointed, and looking to him as a master, I am following the one true Master, God the Father.

The ONE TRUE God, the Father, sent Jesus into the world that we may come to know the ONE True God better.

The things which Jesus revealed of the One True God, has made me love the Father all the more.

Because I know that God is IN Jesus and I see God's work in Jesus, I as well love Jesus.

[KangarooJack]

Jodi Lee said:

Quote

By serving Jesus, whom God appointed, and looking to him as a master, I am following the one true Master, God the Father.

Jodi lee,
Exactly! Jesus called this honoring Him EVEN AS the Father is honored. So I rephrase my question. Jesus said that one cannot love and serve two masters [equally]. So who do you love and serve more. God or Jesus?

thinker

[GeneBalthrop]

WJ…….. I Jh 2:18…>”Little Childern, IT IS THE LAST TIME: and as ye have heard that Antichrist, shall come, even now are there many Antichrist; whereby we know that it is the last time.”  There is you answer about the later days. and when did the Spirit of Antichrist start.  Lets continue, 1Jh 2:22….> Who is a (LIAR) but he that denies that Jesus is the (CHRIST) or (anointed one)? He is Antichrist the denies the Father and the SON. (Now check out other translations or read in you margin and look what it say), “He is Antichrist that denies  that Jesus came not in the FLESH , is the proper translation.   But to further prove the point lets go to,  1Jh 4:3,..> And every spirit (intellect) that confesses (NOT) that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is (NOT) of GOD: and this (IS) the spirit (intellect) of Antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even (NOW) already is it in the world.” The Gnostic at the time of John were teaching Jesus was a GOD who was sent from the Pelora a GOD of GODS. Or as you trinitarians say He was Homooussious, GOD from GOD.  Lets go on 2 Jh 1:7 …> For many deceivers are entered into the world (present tense) who confess NOT that Jesus Christ is Come (IN) (into existence) in the Flesh, this is a deceiver and an Antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; how,  (buy Paul in 2Th2) and even (NOW) already it is IN the world., Yes the Gnostic's were Presenting Jesus as a GOD from GOD a False teaching that The Apostate Church adapted as truth in the council of Necia in 325 AD. It is called the Doctrine of the TRINITY. All who teach it shall be rejected in fact they are already because they recieved (NOT) the Love of the TRUTH and GOD has sent to them a Deluding Spirit (INTELLECT) so they (Can) Believe the (LIE) as Paul Said. IMO and what the Scriptures says.

Peace and love to all who love the truth………gene

[GeneBalthrop]

Thinker ………your rational is getting worse and worse brother, dump the Trinity Garbage and the Light will start to shine in you brother. IMO

You know i still love you though and am looking forward when you will come to your senses and turn away from the False teachings of the Trinity, peace and love to you and yours Brother……………………….gene

[Jodi Lee]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 01 2009,04:05)

Quote (Jodi Lee @ July 31 2009,11:50) Come on now WJ, Circular? While the Apostate Church might have a few things correct, it is the ones that are False that obviously make them the apostate church. Gene does not follow the FALSE beliefs of which makes the RCC the false church. To be apart of the Apostate Church would mean that you are following THOSE beliefs of which MAKE IT the false church. Hi Jodi Your argument is also circular because saying that something is false does not mean that it is. I just posted an unambiguous scripture that supports the truth of the Trinity! The Logic that because one holds to a particular doctrine of a false church does not mean that what the false church teaches as truth is always false as I just showed you. WJ

Yes your right just because I say something is false that doesn't mean that it is, I am giving my opinion.

What you were telling Gene was circular was not. Let me clarify my point.  

You had said because he believes in certain beliefs that the apostate church believes in, then that makes him apart of the apostate church as well. You were speaking from Genes point that by the way he called you as being apart of the apostate church, then he would then have to call himself apart of the church as well. Were you not trying to make the point that from Genes perspective it comes back to bite him in the butt? According to Genes perspective it's not believing in any doctrine that is the same as the apostate church that makes you part of the apostate church, it's the ones that are FALSE.

We are speaking here from Genes perspective, which you said was circular, however if you keep to Genes perspective then it's not.  

Is this your unambiguous scripture you were referring to as proving the trinity?

while we wait for the blessed hope–the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, Titus 2:13

This does not show ONE ounce of trinity.

1Cor. 8:5-7… even as there are many Gods and many Lords, nevertheless for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is.

However the above scripture shows that the Trinity is an absurd and an utter lie.

and this scripture gives us a clearer understanding as to why Jesus is considered a theos in Titus.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men–the testimony given in its proper time.

and as well the following shows us that Jesus is ONLY a theos because OF the ONE and Only True theos, the Father.

2Peter 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honor and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.”

We wait for the glorious appearing of our great theos and savior Jesus, of whom does NOT know when he is coming because ONLY the ONE TRUE theos the FATHER knows that.

Jesus is a great theos and Savior because of the ONE True theos the Father, without the One True theos making Jesus who he is, he would be nothing.    

According to your trinitarian doctrine

Titus 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Shouldn't the above scripture read, that we are waiting for Jesus who is PART of the great God and Savior?

Or shouldn't it read, that we are waiting for our great God and Savior to appear, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

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