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Quote (Gene @ May 21 2009,20:14) Kerwin………..I do get your point and agree with it , that all are now created new in Christ Jesus. The point i was making is as you say the word through can be translated (FOR) or (BY) as easily as (THROUGH). Your point is well made, and that being, that we are being created a New through Christ Jesus. Good Post. IMO peace and love to you and yours……………………gene
I agree. Thank you for the clarification.Quote (Gene @ May 22 2009,01:14) Kerwin………..I do get your point and agree with it , that all are now created new in Christ Jesus. The point i was making is as you say the word through can be translated (FOR) or (BY) as easily as (THROUGH). Your point is well made, and that being, that we are being created a New through Christ Jesus. Good Post. IMO peace and love to you and yours……………………gene
Gen and kerwin Are you not now interpreting the Scripture in order to make it what you (plural) want it to be.
John 1:3 All things were made through Him and without Him nothing was made that was made.
If one is in doubt what through means in this case, then you should look at other Scriptures to prove the point. Like
Col. 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
verse 16 For by Him all things are created, that are on earth and that is in Heaven………..
verse 17 And He is before all things…..
verse 18 He is also the firstborn of the dead, so in all things He will have preeminence.
If you do not know what preeminence means, it means first in all.
Rev. 3:14…. These things says the Amen,the Faithful and true Witness, THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD.
Proverb 8;22 ” The Lord possessed Me at the beginning of His way. Before His works of old.
” I have been established from everlasting,
FROM THE BEGINNING BEFORE THERE WAS EVER AN EARTH.
WHEN THERE WAS NO DEPTHS I WAS BROUGHT FORTH.It goes on like that for some verses. Some might want to say that it is wisdom , which is ridiculous IMO. Wisdom God always had, it was not born.
Does it not say in Gen. let us make man in our image..So who is us? To many Scriptures to interpret another way. Also He was the Spokesperson for God, cause nobody has seen the Father or heard His voice.
Peace and Love to you both IreneQuote (Gene @ May 21 2009,02:36) thinker………..all things were created by Him (GOD ALMIGHTY) Just as written in Isaiah and by himself and alone with no body else around but Himself. John 1:1 Is not talking about Jesus or John would have said Jesus, he know how to write His name if that is what He meant to say He would have just said it. Trinitarians force the text to try to make their case for supporting their theologies, rather then taking the text for what it is saying without changes the wording to trying to imply a different meaning to it. Like is said before Jesus is one of Us (HUMANS) not of the GOD CLASS. There is ONLY (ONE) TRUE GOD as Jesus said. For (THOU) srt the (ONLY) TRUE GOD. Don't believe me Thinker believe Jesus. IMO peace and love to you and yours brother………………gene
Gene,
The narrative clearly and unequivocally asserts that all things were created by “HIM” which is the Word. Then verse 14 says that the Word became flesh. The Father did not become flesh. Non personal “intelligence” did not become flesh. Come on bro! It's back to the drawing board for you
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ May 22 2009,02:41) Quote (Gene @ May 21 2009,02:36) thinker………..all things were created by Him (GOD ALMIGHTY) Just as written in Isaiah and by himself and alone with no body else around but Himself. John 1:1 Is not talking about Jesus or John would have said Jesus, he know how to write His name if that is what He meant to say He would have just said it. Trinitarians force the text to try to make their case for supporting their theologies, rather then taking the text for what it is saying without changes the wording to trying to imply a different meaning to it. Like is said before Jesus is one of Us (HUMANS) not of the GOD CLASS. There is ONLY (ONE) TRUE GOD as Jesus said. For (THOU) srt the (ONLY) TRUE GOD. Don't believe me Thinker believe Jesus. IMO peace and love to you and yours brother………………gene
Gene,
The narrative clearly and unequivocally asserts that all things were created by “HIM” which is the Word. Then verse 14 says that the Word became flesh. The Father did not become flesh. Non personal “intelligence” did not become flesh. Come on bro! It's back to the drawing board for you thinker
I think Gene is stating you are taking the scripture too literally as became flesh could mean going from the drawing board into implemented. I could be wrong because that may have been someone else's argument.Kerwin both you and Gen have very convinently ignored my last post. The thinker is right. If the Word would be intellect. Then the Father became a man. And we know that is not the case.
IreneIrene……….Do you believe what Jesus said (He could do nothing of Himself) The Father in me (HE) doth the works, so How could Jesus have created anything, Much less the entire universe and all that is in it. Since God said he did it (ALONE and BY HIMSELF) What don't you understand about that? IS it true or not. ONLY GOD HIMSELF CAN CREATE. We are His creation and so is Jesus. You still have not completely removed yourself from the APOSTATE CHURCH TEACHINGS completely Yet. IMO
peace and love to you and Georg………………………gene
Gen So you are denying what Scriptures says? Jesus created everything LIKE SCRIPTURE SAYS BY THE POWER OF THE Father. What always makes me sad, that you cannot restrain yourself to make unneccecary remarks. Sorry, but there are to many Scriptures for me to deny them. Whatever you want to believe, you will, I just know that. Just like there is no Demons or Satan.
IreneQuote (kerwin @ May 21 2009,18:36) Quote (gollamudi @ May 21 2009,12:43) Yes brother Kerwin.
God created everything through His word in the beginning and now that word became flesh(Jesus) so now He creates everything through Jesus. Therefore it is said “If anyone is in Christ he is a new creation” (2 Cor 5:17). What is wrong in brother Gene's words as per the creation which God did in the beginning ?
I am defending my previous statement and not saying Gene is wrong in anything beyond where he seems to doubt that statement.I am not sure of his argument about “through” but I did not disagree with it since I do not know what it is. I did point that arguments about the definition of words do not settle anything by themselves.
Thanks brother Kerwin for such agreement. I believe God uses Jesus just like He used Adam to multiply the mortal human race. I mean God creates the new race spiritual and immortals through Jesus by spiritual birth and resurrection. Please see these verses in 1Cor 15:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual one.
45 So, too, it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living being,” the last Adam a life-giving spirit.
46 But the spiritual was not first; rather the natural and then the spiritual.
47 The first man was from the earth, earthly; the second man, from heaven.
48 As was the earthly one, so also are the earthly, and as is the heavenly one, so also are the heavenly.
49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthly one, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly one.See the anology of Adam(mortal/natural man) and Christ(immortal/spiritual man).
Peace to you
AdamIrene wrote:
Quote Kerwin both you and Gen have very convinently ignored my last post.
I did not ignore your post. I put it off to a more convenient time so I could study the scriptures you referred to and hopefully give you a more thought out post.
Irene wrote:
Quote If the Word would be intellect then the Father became a man.
I do certainly not understand your reasoning there but I do not agree with Gene that Word means intellect either. It could very well mean Word of God or perhaps Purpose of God is a better way of putting it. John is just making the case that God has had a purpose from the beginning and that that purpose was implemented in Jesus the Anointed one. Other scripture tells us that anyways but then it is not uncommon for ideas to be repeated multiple times in scripture with different words and from different perspectives. Gene calls that purpose intellect which is confusing at best and misleading at worse and it seems the ideas in John 1 are difficult to understand as it is.
As regards Col. 1:15
Jesus certainly is the firstborn of the new creation but not the old which is perishing. Other scriptures make that quite plain. The new creation of which Jesus is the firstborn is superior to the old creation of which Adam is the firstborn.
1 Corinthians 15:20-23(NIV) reads:
Quote But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him
About Rev. 3:14
Revelations 3:14(NIV) reads:
Quote “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation.”As you can see there is a difference in translations. Offhand I would guess the Greek word probably means “leader” as that is a word which can be interpreted to be a synonym for either word it was translated to in the various translations and translator bias decided the conundrum when translating. I did not check a Greek Lexicon to test my hypothesis.
Addressing Proverb 8:22
So are you proposing that Jesus equals the personification of Wisdom? I ask this because the scripture you quoted is speaking about wisdom and wisdom is God’s Word as Jesus is the fulfillment of that word but that does not make him wisdom no more than it makes the bible Jesus.
Irene wrote:
Quote It goes on like that for some verses. Some might want to say that it is wisdom, which is ridiculous IMO. Wisdom God always had, it was not born.
That may be why “everlasting” was used by your chosen translators with “beginning” being just a relative terms in this case. “Born” is figurative in that at some time God had his first thought, if God had a beginning, and that was the birth of Wisdom.
Irene wrote:
Quote Also He was the Spokesperson for God, cause nobody has seen the Father or heard His voice.
You are taking that scripture too literally when Jesus often chose to speak figuratively. We have documentation that state that Satan, angels, and even demons converse with God, and are even in his presence, so Jesus was not speaking literally. I would have to know which scripture you are referring to know exactly what Jesus meant but in general I would say he was saying is the only way to reach God as God has chosen to live in Jesus through the Holy Spirit and will continue to do so for eternity.
Kerwin……….You misrepresent what i said a word is, I said a word is the (EXPRESSION) OF (INTELLECT) . No where does scripture disagree with that, because that is exactly what (A) word is, John 1:1 is not using the word (WORD) as a separate being but an attribute of a BEING and that being is GOD, in the beginning GOD Spoke (which is WORDS) THINGS INTO BEING, as Genesis plainly says. I notice you frequently misrepresent (exactly what i say). Would appreciate a little more accuracy.
peace and love……………….gene
Quote (Gene @ May 22 2009,15:52) Irene……….Do you believe what Jesus said (He could do nothing of Himself) The Father in me (HE) doth the works, so How could Jesus have created anything, Much less the entire universe and all that is in it. Since God said he did it (ALONE and BY HIMSELF) What don't you understand about that? IS it true or not. ONLY GOD HIMSELF CAN CREATE. We are His creation and so is Jesus. You still have not completely removed yourself from the APOSTATE CHURCH TEACHINGS completely Yet. IMO peace and love to you and Georg………………………gene
Gene,
Jesus said that he could do nothing of Himself when he was in his state of humiliation. He has since been glorified and exalted. He has returned to the glory He had with the Father before the world began.Quote Father, glorify me with the glory I had together with you before the world began (John 17:5) As an illustration let's suppose that a sergeant in the military has orders he has to follow. He says, “I can do nothing of myself. I am duty bound to a higher authority”. But later on that sergeant is promoted up to the next rank. As time goes on he is exalted to five star general.
After the sergeant is exalted to the highest rank in the military the statement “I can co nothing of myself” no longer applies. Jesus EARNED the rank he presently enjoys. He calls all the shots now. The statement “I can do nothing of myself” no longer applies because it was said when He was just a “sergeant.” But He is LORD now.
Quote He became obedient to death, even the death of the cross. Therefore, God has highly exalted Him and has given Him a name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should BOW. And every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ IS LORD to the glory of God the Father. You are not using common sense. You take statements Jesus made BEFORE He was exalted and apply them after He was exalted.
thinker
kerwin Thank for your reply to my post. I do agree that Jesus is the first fruit of the dead.
Col. 1:18 states that too. It also states that He is the first also of all creation in verse 15. not of the new creation. Here the NIV states the same then all other version of the Bible that He was the firstborn of all creation.
verse 18 it says in the NIV so that in all He might have Supremacy. In the King James it says He has preeminence in all, meaning first in all.
John 1:3 states that all was made by Him, and without Him nothing that was made.
Rev. 3: 14 in all Bibles except the NIV it says ……” These says the Amen the Faithful and True Witness, the beginning of all creation of God.We were told that ” The Rye Study Bible and the New King James version of the Bible ” are the closest to the Greek and Hebrew language.
I want to also put this down
John 17:5 ” AND NOW O FATHER, GLORIFY ME TOGETHER WITH YOURSELF, WITH THE GLORY WHICH I HAD WITH YOU BEFORE THE WORLD WAS.”kerwin if I were you I would get myself another Bible to study with. My Husband does agree with this and has found several differences in the NIV of the Bible. That is why we study in the King James Bibles. We also have a Hebrew Bible that our Grandson gave us, but you have to know Hebrew, which we don't.
To me there are more then one Scripture that Jesus was the firstborn of all creation.
Believe me it was hard to believe this. When one of the J.W. told us about this years ago, I told Him that He was crazy. Well God did not leave us in that belief.
We come out of the Catholic Church into the W.W.Church of God were we really studied the Bible. Of cause they two had errors in what they believed, so now we do not go to any Church. We found out that all have errors in their believes. Most belief in the trinity Doctrine, IMO is wrong.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (Gene @ May 22 2009,20:57) Kerwin……….You misrepresent what i said a word is, I said a word is the (EXPRESSION) OF (INTELLECT) . No where does scripture disagree with that, because that is exactly what (A) word is, John 1:1 is not using the word (WORD) as a separate being but an attribute of a BEING and that being is GOD, in the beginning GOD Spoke (which is WORDS) THINGS INTO BEING, as Genesis plainly says. I notice you frequently misrepresent (exactly what i say). Would appreciate a little more accuracy. peace and love……………….gene
As I said previously your point about intellect is confusing.Kerwin……… What confusing about it. How much plainer can one GET. (A WORD) IS AN EXPRESSION OF INTELLECT, cant get more simpler then that, that is a basic and a fundamental fact. If that is in error please explain what a (WORD) is then. Saying something is confusing when it is not is deceptive. IMO
peace and love…………………………gene
Hi King Dhanasingh,
You are welcome to the wonderful family of Heavennet. Here you will meet many brothers and sisters from different parts of the world believing in different doctrines. I am happy to enroll one more brother from India.Peace to you
AdamWelcome Kingdhanasingh, where in Indiana do you live? We live in Cincinnati, Ohio. You will see either Georg or Irene posting, so please pay attention to the Signature. I will sign this way..
Peace and Love IreneKingdhanasingh……….Welcome to the site, Our brother Adam is also from India as you probably already know, Hope you give and get many uplifting and edifying posts here.
peace and love to you and yours……………………………gene
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