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It always amazes me how some will just ignore Scriptures. Some will always stick with their own interpretations. IMO we should not have our own, rather prove it by Scripture.
1 Thessalonians 5:21
IreneIrene………Show us the WORD JESUS in John 1:1 and I will change my mind. But if you can't then accept it as it is written and don't change the meanings sis. IMO
peace and love to you and Georg………………………….gene
Gen John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God
verse 4 In Him was life and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the
darkness did not comprehend it.
verse 14 And the Word became flesh, not of the will of men, but of God.Even tho the Word was not called Jesus, but it is the same being, the Son of God. In
verse 2 He was in the beginning with God.
verse 3 All things were made through Him and nothing was made that was made.
Along with other Scripture we can see that it is the Son of God.
Col 1 : 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
verse 18 tells that He also was the first in resurrection, so He has preeminence in all.
This verse is important, because it shows us that He was first in being created and then through Him all was created, and was the first to be resurrected from the dead.
John 17:5 shows us that He had the glory with God before the world was.
Also Proverbs 8: 22 I like this the best, because it goes into detail. He was the Fathers delight etc. Some want to say that that is wisdom, wisdom is what a Person possesses not that it stand alone. I don't think that one can call wisdom a craftsman.
verse 30
Then I was beside Him as a master craftsman.Also pay attention to LORD. When it is in capital letters it is the Father Jehovah, when it is written Lord it is His Son.
Do you know why the Bible never gives us the real name of Jesus and the LORD. The translators were so afraid that they would spell it wrong that they called Him LORD and God. IMO Jesus had the same mind when He emptied himself and became a man. When we read that all have fallen short of the glory of God, IMO Jesus was aware of all and knew what was at stake. Which human ever at age 9 could preach like Jesus did, when Mary and Joseph were looking for Him and found Him in the Temple.
Peace and Love IreneP.S. Gen were did I say that John 1:1 says Jesus? He became Jesus when He became man, before He did have a name, He was the Spokesman for God. Nobody has seen or heard God, so how were the 10 Commandments given to Moses. You have to remember that both are called God. God is a title or a Family name. We since Baptism belong to the Family of God.
Irene ………If you read John 1:1 without changing the exact wording you will find the that it says in (the) beginning) Notice it does not say a certain beginning but (The) beginning , this implies the beginning of (ALL) things, the word, (expressed intelligence) and the word (expressed intelligence) was with GOD, and the word (expressed intelligence) was GOD. This all identify s (ONE) Being and that is GOD the FATHER, who said in Isaiah that He (ALONE and BY HIMSELF) created all things. GOD spoke every thing into existences. Not only that some of this intellect (SPIRIT) was given to man, it is what enlightens (every man) coming into the world, and that included Jesus. All intelligence comes from (ONE) GOD. in the form of spirit (intellect) and when we die, it goes back to him who gave it GOD the FATHER not Jesus. To try to take away the credit of creation from GOD the FATHER alone , can amount to robbing GOD The Father of his glory. IMO
peace and love to you and Georg…………………………gene
Quote (Gene @ May 09 2009,17:20) Irene ………If you read John 1:1 without changing the exact wording you will find the that it says in (the) beginning) Notice it does not say a certain beginning but (The) beginning , this implies the beginning of (ALL) things, the word, (expressed intelligence) and the word (expressed intelligence) was with GOD, and the word (expressed intelligence) was GOD. This all identify s (ONE) Being and that is GOD the FATHER, who said in Isaiah that He (ALONE and BY HIMSELF) created all things. GOD spoke every thing into existences. Not only that some of this intellect (SPIRIT) was given to man, it is what enlightens (every man) coming into the world, and that included Jesus. All intelligence comes from (ONE) GOD. in the form of spirit (intellect) and when we die, it goes back to him who gave it GOD the FATHER not Jesus. To try to take away the credit of creation from GOD the FATHER alone , can amount to robbing GOD The Father of his glory. IMO peace and love to you and Georg…………………………gene
Gen And that intelligence, so God Himself became a Men? I did not know that an intelligence can become a man! Not so!!!!!! Since our Heavenly Father did not have a beginning, that just does not fit. The Word became a Man.
My advice to you is that you ask Jehovah God for some wisdom to understand better. In Genesis it says let us make man in our image. Us is one?
Peace and Love Irene
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 09 2009,18:35) G,
What is this INTELLIGENCE God?
Our God is love.
Nick…………What is you intellect is what you KNOW, is it not your thoughts or mind, Same with GOD the FATHER, and for you to eliminate Love from that Intellect is pure nonsense. IMOpeace and love…………………….gene
G,
Do we turn first to logic to decipher spiritual mysteries?God is love.
Spirit is not said to be intellect but choose your own master.Nick………NO, we let this mind be in us that was in Christ Jesus our lord, and it guides our thought and intellect , and searches the deep thing of GOD. YOU say Spirit is not said to be intellect, SO a WORD to you is not the expression of intellect is it> Jesus seems to disagree with you though. “The (WORD) I have spoken unto you (ARE) SPIRIT and LIFE”< but you choose to disagree with Him, while all the time saying He is your master. HOW foolish is that? Pray for understanding Nick, and perhaps GOD will allow you to.
peace and love………………gene
Quote (Gene @ May 09 2009,17:20) Irene ………If you read John 1:1 without changing the exact wording you will find the that it says in (the) beginning) Notice it does not say a certain beginning but (The) beginning , this implies the beginning of (ALL) things, the word, (expressed intelligence) and the word (expressed intelligence) was with GOD, and the word (expressed intelligence) was GOD. This all identify s (ONE) Being and that is GOD the FATHER, who said in Isaiah that He (ALONE and BY HIMSELF) created all things. GOD spoke every thing into existences. Not only that some of this intellect (SPIRIT) was given to man, it is what enlightens (every man) coming into the world, and that included Jesus. All intelligence comes from (ONE) GOD. in the form of spirit (intellect) and when we die, it goes back to him who gave it GOD the FATHER not Jesus. To try to take away the credit of creation from GOD the FATHER alone , can amount to robbing GOD The Father of his glory. IMO peace and love to you and Georg…………………………gene
Very good post brother Gene.Peace and love
AdamQuote (Gene @ May 09 2009,17:20) Irene ………If you read John 1:1 without changing the exact wording you will find the that it says in (the) beginning) Notice it does not say a certain beginning but (The) beginning , this implies the beginning of (ALL) things, the word, (expressed intelligence) and the word (expressed intelligence) was with GOD, and the word (expressed intelligence) was GOD. This all identify s (ONE) Being and that is GOD the FATHER, who said in Isaiah that He (ALONE and BY HIMSELF) created all things. GOD spoke every thing into existences. Not only that some of this intellect (SPIRIT) was given to man, it is what enlightens (every man) coming into the world, and that included Jesus. All intelligence comes from (ONE) GOD. in the form of spirit (intellect) and when we die, it goes back to him who gave it GOD the FATHER not Jesus. To try to take away the credit of creation from GOD the FATHER alone , can amount to robbing GOD The Father of his glory. IMO peace and love to you and Georg…………………………gene
Gene,
This is nonsense! Verse three says that all things were created by HIM. This means the Word is a pre-existent and personal Being. Come on bro!thinker
thinker………..all things were created by Him (GOD ALMIGHTY) Just as written in Isaiah and by himself and alone with no body else around but Himself. John 1:1 Is not talking about Jesus or John would have said Jesus, he know how to write His name if that is what He meant to say He would have just said it. Trinitarians force the text to try to make their case for supporting their theologies, rather then taking the text for what it is saying without changes the wording to trying to imply a different meaning to it. Like is said before Jesus is one of Us (HUMANS) not of the GOD CLASS. There is ONLY (ONE) TRUE GOD as Jesus said. For (THOU) srt the (ONLY) TRUE GOD. Don't believe me Thinker believe Jesus. IMO
peace and love to you and yours brother………………gene
Quote (thethinker @ May 20 2009,20:59) Quote (Gene @ May 09 2009,17:20) Irene ………If you read John 1:1 without changing the exact wording you will find the that it says in (the) beginning) Notice it does not say a certain beginning but (The) beginning , this implies the beginning of (ALL) things, the word, (expressed intelligence) and the word (expressed intelligence) was with GOD, and the word (expressed intelligence) was GOD. This all identify s (ONE) Being and that is GOD the FATHER, who said in Isaiah that He (ALONE and BY HIMSELF) created all things. GOD spoke every thing into existences. Not only that some of this intellect (SPIRIT) was given to man, it is what enlightens (every man) coming into the world, and that included Jesus. All intelligence comes from (ONE) GOD. in the form of spirit (intellect) and when we die, it goes back to him who gave it GOD the FATHER not Jesus. To try to take away the credit of creation from GOD the FATHER alone , can amount to robbing GOD The Father of his glory. IMO peace and love to you and Georg…………………………gene
Gene,
This is nonsense! Verse three says that all things were created by HIM. This means the Word is a pre-existent and personal Being. Come on bro!thinker
I have to disagree since though the new covenant all things are created through Jesus.Kerwin……….investigate the word (Through) and you might change your mind. If you understood Jesus never (HIMSELF) did a miracle, so how could He create anything then. Trinitarians and preexistences use that to try to prove the Preexistence of Jesus before His berth, and give creative and Godly status to Jesus. Both are false, IMO.
peace and love………………gene
Gen I am glad at least you said IMO. You just ignore Scriptures, not very smart. Not only John 1:1 is prove to the preexisting of Jesus. The Word became flesh. I am not going again put all those Scriptures down that prove the preexisting of our Lord. Really I wish you would change your mind, just like I did. To acknowledge that self is wrong is not easy to do, I know. Jesus never said that He was greater then the Father, and neither do I. On the contrary Jesus said ' The Father is greater then I.” He was and is the Son of God the Father. God is only a tittle, they both have other names. You should know that, right?
Peace and Love IreneQuote (Gene @ May 21 2009,07:21) Kerwin……….investigate the word (Through) and you might change your mind. If you understood Jesus never (HIMSELF) did a miracle, so how could He create anything then. Trinitarians and preexistences use that to try to prove the Preexistence of Jesus before His berth, and give creative and Godly status to Jesus. Both are false, IMO. peace and love………………gene
I did not say anything that controversial since scripture makes it clear that we are saved through faith in Jesus the Anointed One. The problem with those that try to use certain scriptures as proof that Jesus preexisted his birth is they fail to consider that Jesus was the one by which the all things are created the second time. In other words they are applying that scripture to the wrong creation.Romans 5:11(KJV) reads:
Quote And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
Scripture instructs us Jesus is the firstborn of a new creation and obviously not of the old creation or he would not have had to die.
Romans 8:29(KJV) reads:
Quote For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
I have no idea what your point about “through” is but in my experience the most you can do with definitions of words is point out there are alternative interpretations to consider. You cannot prove one is more accurate than another.
Yes brother Kerwin.
God created everything through His word in the beginning and now that word became flesh(Jesus) so now He creates everything through Jesus. Therefore it is said “If anyone is in Christ he is a new creation” (2 Cor 5:17). What is wrong in brother Gene's words as per the creation which God did in the beginning ?Quote (gollamudi @ May 21 2009,12:43) Yes brother Kerwin.
God created everything through His word in the beginning and now that word became flesh(Jesus) so now He creates everything through Jesus. Therefore it is said “If anyone is in Christ he is a new creation” (2 Cor 5:17). What is wrong in brother Gene's words as per the creation which God did in the beginning ?
I am defending my previous statement and not saying Gene is wrong in anything beyond where he seems to doubt that statement.I am not sure of his argument about “through” but I did not disagree with it since I do not know what it is. I did point that arguments about the definition of words do not settle anything by themselves.
Quote (kerwin @ May 21 2009,17:24) Quote (Gene @ May 21 2009,07:21) Kerwin……….investigate the word (Through) and you might change your mind. If you understood Jesus never (HIMSELF) did a miracle, so how could He create anything then. Trinitarians and preexistences use that to try to prove the Preexistence of Jesus before His berth, and give creative and Godly status to Jesus. Both are false, IMO. peace and love………………gene
I did not say anything that controversial since scripture makes it clear that we are saved through faith in Jesus the Anointed One. The problem with those that try to use certain scriptures as proof that Jesus preexisted his birth is they fail to consider that Jesus was the one by which the all things are created the second time. In other words they are applying that scripture to the wrong creation.Romans 5:11(KJV) reads:
Quote And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
Scripture instructs us Jesus is the firstborn of a new creation and obviously not of the old creation or he would not have had to die.
Romans 8:29(KJV) reads:
Quote For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
I have no idea what your point about “through” is but in my experience the most you can do with definitions of words is point out there are alternative interpretations to consider. You cannot prove one is more accurate than another.
Kerwin That really surprised me that you do not believe in a preexisting of Jesus.
Col. 1:15-18
Rev. 3:14
Proverb 8:22-30
John !:3
Do yourself a favor and study these Scriptures, you might change your mind. And do not interpret Scripture, like some do on this site, just believe the way they are written.
John 1:3 says that He made all, so if that is true, which I do believe, then He had to be there before the world was. In Gen. it says let us make man. So who is us. If He is the firstborn of all creation, He came forth from the Father, before anything was created. And by Jesus. Jesus also in John 17:5 said this:” And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory I had with You before the world was.”
God send His only begotten Son into the world not to condemn the world, but that through Him might be saveth.
So were did the Father send Him from.
Check out also John 16: 27-28
Peace and Love Irene
Peace and Love IreneKerwin………..I do get your point and agree with it , that all are now created new in Christ Jesus. The point i was making is as you say the word through can be translated (FOR) or (BY) as easily as (THROUGH). Your point is well made, and that being, that we are being created a New through Christ Jesus. Good Post. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………………gene
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