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Georg………Jesus was planned to come from the women seed into the earth from the very beginning He was as Peter said foreordained , He was the one that would come from the women a crush the serpents head. But as Moses said God brought him into existence from His brethren the Israelites, He was a Jew, he came to his own and his own recieved him not. WE could us your same logic with John the baptist, Jeremiah the Prophet, or Cyrus. these were all foreordained but they did not exist till the time of the Prophesied event. Ask yourself what advantage would it be for Jesus to have preexisted , what kind of example would that be for all man kind if a super being who walked perfectly came to earth and walked perfectly what does that show us, how could we ever really relate to him in any real and meaningful way. NO the whole concept of Jesus as a GOD or Preexisting super being or demigod is all part of the mystery religion , that we are told to come out of. IMO Brother
peace and love to you and Irene……………………………..gene
Amen brother Gene,
You said it right about the figurative language of Fourth Gospel. 'He came down from heaven as the bread of life' or 'he came down from God' such language is common for a Jew to understand them in a figurative sense but not to be taken literally. Yes, you are also right in saying Jesus existed in the plan of God even before the foundations of the world. But he came into existence physically when the fullness of time came 2000 years ago born through a woman Mary as per Gal 4:4.Sis Irene always quotes that Jesus existed as some being prior to his birth as a man on this earth . But there is no proof for such belief even though some verses in our Bible seem to convey such meaning as quoted by her from Rev 3, Col 1 and Heb 1. But again we have to understand God and Jesus in view of Jewish Monotheism. Jn 1:1 says nothing about two beings in the beginning who were called to be God. If we take this verse literally by assigning two beings we make God of the Bible Poy(more than one).
Thanks and love to you
AdamQuote (Gene @ April 28 2009,17:02) Georg………Jesus was planned to come from the women seed into the earth from the very beginning He was as Peter said foreordained , He was the one that would come from the women a crush the serpents head. But as Moses said God brought him into existence from His brethren the Israelites, He was a Jew, he came to his own and his own recieved him not. WE could us your same logic with John the baptist, Jeremiah the Prophet, or Cyrus. these were all foreordained but they did not exist till the time of the Prophesied event. Ask yourself what advantage would it be for Jesus to have preexisted , what kind of example would that be for all man kind if a super being who walked perfectly came to earth and walked perfectly what does that show us, how could we ever really relate to him in any real and meaningful way. NO the whole concept of Jesus as a GOD or Preexisting super being or demigod is all part of the mystery religion , that we are told to come out of. IMO Brother peace and love to you and Irene……………………………..gene
It is always amazing to me, to see that especially you seem not read all. Otherwise you would not address me as Georg. I made the post. Irene. You even say, came to earth!!!! Where did He come from? Rev.3:14 states that He is the firstborn of all creation. Is that not true? If not what does it mean?
IreneIrene ………Sorry abut the mix up, Yes i did say came to earth and where did we come from , As Adam said the Jews understood that as not meaning literial but was from above or a GOD caused event. Jesus was caused to be Born a man for Gods special purpose as scripture says, he did not preexist his berth other ten in the (PLAN AND WILL) of GOD the same as we are. IMO
peace and love to you and georg…………..gene
Gen If what you write would be true, Jesus would not be the firstborn, it has nothing to do with first in His resurrection. He also was first in that, so He has preeminence in all.
Preeminence means first in all.
Col 1:18
Later in verse 28 He tells us that it was a mystery, that it was now revealed to His Saints.
Also if He was only like a man, IMO He would have sinned. Cause it says in Scriptures all have fallen short of tie glory of Gd. Only God and His Son have that glory spoken inJohn 17:5 “And now O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You
before the world was.” All of that is a plan? Give ME break…….Peace and Irene
Irene…..> don't you see thats the point , Jesus was exactly a man in every way like us and Yet without sin, a perfect one of Us thats what GOD wants all of us to see, How He can perfect us just the way He did Jesus. That gave meaning and purpose to His plan for Jesus' existence. GOD does all things with a purpose in mind, and His purpose is to (SAVE) mankind. And Jesus is given the position as firstborn in the household of GOD by being the first raised from the dead of all of mankind. We are all the family of GOD and Jesus is the Elder Son the first resurrected to eternal life, not the first re-resurrected . As it would have been if he were alive before and died and was born again and died and was raised again. What would that show us or God or anyone else far as the goes. Irene the Trinity and Preexistences are wrong IMO.
peace and love to you and Georg……………..gene
Amen to that post brother Gene,
You said it right. Jesus had to be like us in all respects to be an example to us. If he is from different stock and origin it makes him a different being and he can not be our model. Trinity and preexistence make Jesus somebody who is different from our nature and only mysticism can believe such dogma.Love and peace to you
AdamQuote (gollamudi @ April 29 2009,20:07) Amen to that post brother Gene,
You said it right. Jesus had to be like us in all respects to be an example to us. If he is from different stock and origin it makes him a different being and he can not be our model. Trinity and preexistence make Jesus somebody who is different from our nature and only mysticism can believe such dogma.Love and peace to you
Adam
Gollumandi,
The problem I see with your view is that you are making yourself your own counselor. Your counselor said that you needed a high priest is is “separate” from you and without weakness like you.Quote For it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy innocent, unstained separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens….For the law appoints men who have weakness as high priests., but the word of oath, which came later than the law, appoints a Son who has been made perfected forever (Heb. 7:26, 28) Your counselor said that it was “fitting” that your high priest not be a sinner like you or be weak like you.
thinker
thinker, brother that in no way proves Jesus' preexistences or that he used to be a GOD brother. Jesus became a High Priest , He was not before his resurrection. IMO
love and peace to you and yours…………….gene
Quote (Gene @ May 05 2009,01:35) thinker, brother that in no way proves Jesus' preexistences or that he used to be a GOD brother. Jesus became a High Priest , He was not before his resurrection. IMO love and peace to you and yours…………….gene
Gene,
God our Counselor said that we need a high priest that is separate from us and not weak like us. God knows what we need. And for us to say we need a high priest that is weak like us is presumptuous.thinker
Thinker ………brother Jesus (Became) a high priest, not that he was before his resurrection. He (Became that brother). Now a Hight priest is a mediator (between) GOD and A man, and this is the (MAN) Jesus the anointed of GOD the FATHER. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………………..gene
Quote (Gene @ May 05 2009,04:20) Thinker ………brother Jesus (Became) a high priest, not that he was before his resurrection. He (Became that brother). Now a Hight priest is a mediator (between) GOD and A man, and this is the (MAN) Jesus the anointed of GOD the FATHER. IMO peace and love to you and yours………………………..gene
Gene,
Exactly! He BECAME high priest at his resurrection. This is the time he was made perfect. Therefore, our high priest is not weak like us. Before his resurrection he was NOT like us because he was separate from sinners. After he became high priest he is not like us because he has been made perfect. So whether before or after he is NOT exactly like us. Don't you get it?
thinker
thinker…….if Jesus (Became a High Priest) was He a GOD before then, if He was He lowered His standard then . He is now less then he was before . Brother fact is Jesus was an ordinary man exactly like you and me who (GOD) perfected and made Him Perfect and raised Him up from the dead and gave Him eternal life (exactly) like He can do for us. Jesus is our perfect example He is One of US brother in every way. Notice we are also called to be Priest and Kings and (JOINT HEIRS) with Jesus in the KINGDOM of GOD. But we are (NOT) GOD neither is Jesus brother. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………..gene
Quote (Gene @ May 05 2009,08:16) thinker…….if Jesus (Became a High Priest) was He a GOD before then, if He was He lowered His standard then . He is now less then he was before . Brother fact is Jesus was an ordinary man exactly like you and me who (GOD) perfected and made Him Perfect and raised Him up from the dead and gave Him eternal life (exactly) like He can do for us. Jesus is our perfect example He is One of US brother in every way. Notice we are also called to be Priest and Kings and (JOINT HEIRS) with Jesus in the KINGDOM of GOD. But we are (NOT) GOD neither is Jesus brother. IMO peace and love to you and yours………………..gene
Gene,
Jesus cannot presently be one of us in every way. He has been perfected and we have not. It's that simple. It is the perfected Jesus that is our high priest. Therefore, your belief that he IS just like us is misguided. He was “separate” from us before he was perfected. And it is as a perfected man he is our high priest.He never was “exactly” like us and this is true even more so now. You can't get around it.
thinker
Hi TT,
The new high priest entered the Holy of Holies of the new temple at his death when his flesh was torn.Hebrews 10:19-21
19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21And having an high priest over the house of God;
Thinker…………what i meant was He was (EXACTLY) one of US in every way. And what is held out to us is the exact same thing He has, we are called Heirs and (JOINT) heirs of Christ , we are called a royal Priesthood, and Heirs of (ALL) things. Brother we must see Jesus as one of US in every way , a Human being that has now be exulted to the right hand of GOD and we also will be. What the Father did in Jesus he is doing us also, perfecting us through sufferings and the Gift of HIS SPIRIT. There is no difference brother IMO. (ONE GOD) in all and through (ALL).
peace and love to you and yours…………………………….gene
Quote (Gene @ May 06 2009,04:53) Thinker…………what i meant was He was (EXACTLY) one of US in every way. And what is held out to us is the exact same thing He has, we are called Heirs and (JOINT) heirs of Christ , we are called a royal Priesthood, and Heirs of (ALL) things. Brother we must see Jesus as one of US in every way , a Human being that has now be exulted to the right hand of GOD and we also will be. What the Father did in Jesus he is doing us also, perfecting us through sufferings and the Gift of HIS SPIRIT. There is no difference brother IMO. (ONE GOD) in all and through (ALL). peace and love to you and yours…………………………….gene
Gene,
I agree with you on everything you say above except that he was like us in every way conceivable. For instance, we were born unclean. But the angel said to Mary this: “That HOLY thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.” And Hebrews 7 says that he was “separate from sinners.”Jesus was born holy. We were not but were conceived in sin. Therefore, he was not like us in every way.
thinker
Thinker ………scripture Say's He was like us in every way, Yet without sin, He was one of Us brother and if GOD the Father was not with him, he would have faired no better the us. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………………..gene
Quote (Gene @ May 06 2009,04:53) Thinker…………what i meant was He was (EXACTLY) one of US in every way. And what is held out to us is the exact same thing He has, we are called Heirs and (JOINT) heirs of Christ , we are called a royal Priesthood, and Heirs of (ALL) things. Brother we must see Jesus as one of US in every way , a Human being that has now be exulted to the right hand of GOD and we also will be. What the Father did in Jesus he is doing us also, perfecting us through sufferings and the Gift of HIS SPIRIT. There is no difference brother IMO. (ONE GOD) in all and through (ALL). peace and love to you and yours…………………………….gene
Hi brother Gene,
It is an excellent post stating that Jesus was and is like us human beings in all respects. He has been taken from our stock but not from any angel or God-stock.Peace and love
Adam
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