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You’re “shooting” the messenger; I didn’t make the claim, Paul did. I’m verifying the claim and can’t find it. Hence the question to where in the OT is Paul’s claim. So instead of answering the question, most get defensive and then combative as I ask more questions or offer explanations contrary to what is taught. If the answer is so obvious and plain, why can no one point to the scripture? Everyone seems to focus on the “Messiah dying for the sins of mankind”, but no one speaks on the raising up in three days. Jonah has been used to explain it away; but Jonah suffered in the belly of a whale because of disobedience not as a foretelling of Jesus and Jesus used this as comparison, not a prophecy.
What I have found is God has never required a human sacrifice to atone for anything and the innocent have NEVER been responsible for the guilt of another…EVER! So go find the “according to scripture” as Paul stated and when you find it let me know; verify what you have been taught and stop hitting the “I Believe Button” for everything you are told is truth. I’ll be waiting.
Isa.42
[1] Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth;And your question is when did God’s “soul” delight in Israel/Jacob.
The first part that has to be answered is who is “mine elect” or “my chosen”? According to Strong’s 972 “bachir” means chosen and other word usages are “chosen one” and “elect.” “Bachir” comes from the root “bachar” which means to select – choose, chosen one, elect. So who is God’s chosen?
Deut 7:6 “For you are a holy people for Yahweh your God; Yahweh your God has chosen you to be for him a people, a treasured possession from among all the peoples that are on the face of the earth.” Who’s God’s chosen?
Deut 14:2 “ For you are a people holy to Yahweh your God, and you Yahweh has chosen to be a treasured possession from among all of the peoples that are on the surface of the earth.” So God has repeated himself.
I Kings 3:8 “Your servant is in the middle of your people whom you have chosen; a great people who cannot be counted or numbered because of abundance.” Solomon identifies who God has chosen for HIS people.
I Chron 16:13 “O offspring of Israel, his servant, O sons of Jacob, his chosen ones”! Did David identify Israel as God’s servant and HIS chosen?!?!
The second part seems you are hung up on the “soul” of God delighting in Israel; are you saying God doesn’t “delight” in his chosen? Define “soul.”
Num 14:8 “If Yahweh delights in us, then he will bring us into this land, and he will give it to us, a land that is flowing with milk and honey.” Since Israel took possession of the land promised, apparently God did “delight” in them.
Isa 62:4 “ It shall no longer be said of you, “Forsaken,” and it shall no longer be said of your land, “Desolation!” but you will be called “My Delight Is In Her,” and your land, “Married,” for Yahweh delights in you, and your land shall be married.” Note the singular usage of “you” in reference to Israel; but God’s “delight is in her.”
Zeph 3:17 “ The LORD your God is in your midst; he is a warrior who can deliver. He takes great delight in you; he renews you by his love; he shouts for joy over you.” Not only does God delight; but renews and shouts for joy, over whom?
Before you ask these types of questions, go verify the answer for yourself first.
Desire Truth……..where did Paul ever say “everything written in the New Testament must be found in the Old Testament at, I never recall reading that. As far a Jonah goes Jesus simply compared his time in the grave to the time Jonah was in the belly of the whale, he never said it was a prophesy about him. I know Paul said what they were hearing should Aline with the Old Testament writings, but that is not the same as saying they must all be prophesied in the Old Testament First before they can be true. The Old Testament give many places where Jesus was shown to be a servant of God, Isaiah is just one book among other’s that point to Jesus as a “suffering” servant. , what about Psa 14:10. And what about Isiah 9:6……> For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name “Shall be” (future tense), Called Wonderful Counsellor, the mighty one, the everlasting Father: the prince of Peace. So who is this talking about, it sure I sent Israel now is it?
Desire truth, your lack of knowledge about the corruption of kingdom of Israel and the kingdom of Judah, has caused you to stumble I think brother.
peace and love to you and yours Desire Truth…………gene
Those who love the Word and know it is God speaking through many frail human vessels recognise the sound of a wolf ,whose only interest is fault finding, casting doubt and tearing down beauty so they can elevate themselves above the work of God.
God does not serve the grammar expectations of men.
He is Spirit and his words are spiritual words.
Fools apply weak human measures to them and fail to grasp them.
@Gene,
Sorry, but you are reaching to validate what you cannot or will not answer and trying to justify it away.
You: where did Paul ever say “everything written in the New Testament must be found in the Old Testament”
Me: Not speaking of everything written; just when Paul said “according to scripture”, this really isn’t that hard. The OT is what the apostles “taught” from and where the Berean’s went to “confirm” what Paul said. Which is the very thing I am doing, confirming what Paul said was “according to scripture” and am being ridiculed for doing it. How dare I question the great and mighty Paul, right!
You: “The Old Testament give many places where Jesus was shown to be a servant of God” and “a ‘suffering’ servant.”
Me: List them.
I have already spoken on Isa 9:6 (link). Never read just one verse, read the surrounding verses; context is the key to understanding.
You: “your lack of knowledge about the corruption of kingdom of Israel and the kingdom of Judah, has caused you to stumble”
Me: My “lack of knowledge”; then educate me, I’ll listen; but be prepared to actually answer questions.
Desire Truth…….There are so many scriptures that show how Israel and Judah forsook God all the way through the Old Testament , I could fill a complete book of places it show that they were unfaithful servants and where God rejected them time and time again, even divorced Israel, the Book of Jeremiah shows how Israel forsook God and even said Judah was worse then her sister Israel.
To save time , just show us one verse that says that the nation of Israel and the nation of Judah were any kind of suffering servants of God . You are saying to us because the scripture call Jacob, who name was changed to Israel, is meaning the nation of Israel as a whole, where is you proof of that at? Abraham, Issac, and Jacob/Israel, were indeed servants of God. But there descendants sure weren’t, that is a well established fact in all the Old Testament scriptures.You trying to make a statement that Nation of Israel was the “suffering servant” of God, does not fit any of the Old Testament scriptures at all about them. You can’t produced a single scripture showing them ever “suffering” for God, as a “suffering servant”, of his, in any scripture. if it is there, then it is incumbent upon you to prove it, by any example found in our text.
The true”suffering servants”, were the Prophets God sent to the nations of Israel, and. Judah, that testified against them because of their “unfaithfulness,” to him. To say they were a “suffering servant”, Is a joke at best. Remember it is the Sum of Gods word that counts, not a little cherry picking here and there right? Desire Truth, you need to produce other scriptures that show Israel as some kind of “suffering servant”, of God. IMO
Peace and love to you and yours Desire Truth……….gene
@desire Truth
Isaiah 53:9
And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; 👉because he had done no violence, 👉neither was any deceit in his mouth.
This is the case for Jesus.
Is this the case for Israel?
@Gene,
You still haven’t read a thing I have said.
First, the term/name/phrase “suffering servant” is found NOWHERE in the bible. This term/name/phrase is man made to create a title for this chapter in Isaiah. So the only thing to be understood in this chapter is God’s “servant”, not “suffering servant.”
Second, I have asked you who is speaking where starting in chapter 52:13 thru 53:12 and I have gotten no definitive answer, just maybe’s and could be’s. If you don’t know who is speaking where or apply the wrong speaker, you will NEVER understand what is actually being said. Then to say the prophets are the “suffering servants”, doesn’t fit the context of the verses. This section in Isaiah is about the restoration of Israel and chapter 53 falls in the middle of it.
Third, what I have said all along it’s the nations who are speaking about Israel in 53:1-9 and it is the nations who caused Israel to suffer. It is the nations who are taking responsibility for their excessive abuse of Israel.
While Israel was in exile, explain Zechariah chapter 1 focus on verse 15 where we are told God is angry at the nations because they “they combined to attack her for evil”, “they helped forward the affliction”, “ they furthered disaster”, “ they added to the calamity”. What is being conveyed in Zechariah? Could it be, even though God sent them into captivity because of disobedience, the nations oppressed them more than they should have? Am I seeing a parallel between Zechariah and Isaiah?Fourth, are you going to say Israel hasn’t suffered greatly at the hands of other nations throughout history!?
You mention “cherry picking”, the four “servant songs” are obviously about God’s “servant” and there is no one who will dispute that. God is speaking of the same “servant” in all “songs”; God never flip-flop between Israel and Jesus as is taught in Christianity. The dispute is who it is; and Christianity says one thing and Judaism says another. The big HOWEVER is the second “song” explicitly states the “servant” is Israel; so by reason of deduction the “servant” is the same in all the “songs.” Read Isa 49:6; did Jesus reestablish the tribes of Jacob, restore the remnant of Israel? Nope, he told his disciples to, “go and make disciples of all the nations.”
Take off you “Jesus goggles” and read the words. Separate the OT from the NT and quit trying to merge what cannot be merged.
Hi Desire truth,
O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken. Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?
Them beginning with Moses and with all the prophets he explained to them the things concerning himself in all the scriptures.
lk 24.25
You search the scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about me: and you are unwilling to come to me so that you may have life.
I do not receive glory from men, but I know you that you do not have the love of God in yourselves.
Jn 5.39+
Believe in God. Believe also in me.
You deny the Spirit in Paul because he opposed your legalism. I strongly suspect you do not believe in the Christ either.
I need you to focus like a laser beam on what I am going to show you; then grab your favorite bible and verify it for yourself.
Rom 10:5-8
5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”– that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
Verify the references in your bible, but they point to Deut 30:12,14
Deut 30:11-14
11 “For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 “It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 13 “Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 14 “But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.
Paul is quoting the Deuteronomy passage; did you notice anything particularly different about what Paul says verses what Moses said? Remember Paul is quoting Moses who is considered the “greatest” prophet in Judaism. What did Paul do to Moses’ words?
Moses is talking about the commandments God gave to the Israelite’s; Paul takes Moses’ words and applies them to faith saying “who will ascend into heaven” and then twists Moses’ analogy by inserting “bring Christ down.”
Moses makes another analogy about going across the sea to find God commandments; what does Paul do, strips it out and inserts “descend into the abyss” “to bring Christ up from the dead.” This is okay with you?! But Paul doesn’t stop there!
Moses then tells the people God’s commands are near because they are “in your mouth and in your heart”, these commands are near you that you many observe them. These God given commands are apart of them. Paul then goes on to say the “word” is “the word of faith” completely taking out of context what Moses said and becomes obvious why he cuts off “that you may observe it” since Moses told them to observe God’s commandments.
Looks to me like Paul was cutting up God’s word given through Moses concerning the commandments God gave to the Israelite’s. This manipulation of the OT in the NT is everywhere and if anyone would bother to verify what they are told is truth, you would see the same thing I now am. If this isn’t an issue for you, enjoy your religion.
You then mention “legalism”; are you saying legalism is something imprinted on your heart by God?
Hi Desire,
Understand that the anointed sons of God in Christ Jesus explain and interpret the OT.
No one except fools can dare judge the Lord Jesus (who is Lord of all ) and those joined to him.
Remove the blindness and awaken to life.
So what the Jewish people claimed to see in the OT words was revealed by the anointed man Paul to have a deeper spiritual meaning. Perhaps you need to listen to the words of the Spirit and seek the anointing yourself.
The book of Romans was written to new Jewish converts who were vacillating and tempted to go back to reliance on obedience to the Law in the vain hope of salvation through that.
Chapter 10 shows them how close they are as Jews, and that all they need is faith in the intermediary appointed by God, Jesus Christ.
Perhaps you find yourself in the same parlous position.
@Nick,
You: “Understand that the anointed sons of God in Christ Jesus explain and interpret the OT.”Me: Are we to just accept their interpretations as being truth or do we verify what they’re saying against what the OT actually says? Is there an amount of “twisting” of God’s words that is acceptable?
Anyways, what you’re saying is you have no idea how to respond to what I wrote about Paul twisting the words of Moses; however, judging by the lack of what you wrote, you have no problem with it. Absolutely stunned!
Hi Desire,
I realise that you have no faith in Jesus and in his Anointing as the Christ.
Overconfidence in your limited understanding of the Law too robs you of the life God offers you in His Son and causes you to fall back on your own instincts. You seek others to join in your walk towards spiritual death.
Hi Desire,
You have found that there are apparent inconsistencies in your mind between the OT and the NT. Since both are written by the Spirit through men then the answer should be obvious.
Seek the Spirit in the way Scripture advises and shop relying on your carnal mind to provide answers. Submit your mind to the Spirit and God will renew it according to truth.
Be transformed by the renewal of your mind.
So far you have offered nothing to this conversation, other than accusations and condemnation; none of which answer any of the questions I’ve asked. I asked one primary question, Paul said “according to scripture” the Messiah was to die for the sins of mankind, be buried and raised up on the third day. This means it is written in the OT; find both of those statements written by a prophet or someone in the OT. IF neither of these statements are written in the OT, what does that mean to you? Are we to ignore his claim because Paul was “inspired by the Spirit”? The Spirit isn’t going to give out unverifiable information; yet, Paul has given us an unverifiable claim, so how can this have come from the Spirit.
You never addressed the Romans/Deuteronomy comparison, the “vacillating Jew” doesn’t validate why Paul butchered the Deuteronomy passage and twisted into to mean something he wanted it to mean. Moses never spoke of a Jesus figure when telling the nation God imprinted HIS commandments on their hearts. Explain why Paul had to make Moses’ words about Jesus when that wasn’t the original intent.
Explain Isa 42:8 when compared to John 13:31-32; Matt 16:27; Mark 8:38; Luke 9:26. God gives his glory to no one, but what did Jesus ask for? God also says, HE doesn’t share HIS praise with idols; how often is it said in churches today “thank you Jesus”, “praise Jesus.” The Catholic church prays to Mary and the Apostles…WHAT!! The Christian church has symbols of the cross everywhere that people bow before. Something is amiss; did our unchanging God, change and when?
Once you finished explaining that away, open up to Zech 14:16 and explain how all the nation who came against Jerusalem will now “go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.” I thought the nations in this great battle were to be destroyed and cast into the Lake of Fire…“inconsistencies in my mind”?!??!?
It’s starting to make more sense why the church today doesn’t encourage people to study the OT and why the primary focus in on the NT.
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