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Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 27 2009,17:14) I have read John 20:19-24 and I cannot see where anyone reaches the conclusion that Jesus was speaking just to those who lead the church since we are told the “disciples” were gathered together. It is true that the 12 Apostles are disciples but so are any other students of Jesus and in fact we know two of the Apostles were not there Judas because he committed suicide and had not been replaced and Thomas. If you read the particular scripture then you will see the power to either forgive or not to forgive is linked to the Holy Spirit and so I suspicion that it is only those who walk by the Spirit who have the authority to forgive sins as Jesus and Mosses did. This makes sense since it is God acting through Jesus and Jesus acting through you when you live by the Spirit.
Kerwin,
It clearly says that Jesus breathed on them. In logic they call yours and Nick's conclusion the Fallacy of Generalization. You are taking an incident that occurred between Jesus and the apostles and you are generalizing and transferring the power He gave them to us also. But Jesus is not physically here today breathing on all Christians and giving them the power to remit sins. Come on!Jesus physically “breathed” on them. He has NOT “breathed” on us. I have become concerned about you regarding this one. Please don't go off the deep end as Nick. Every time he reads a narrative such as John 20 he says to himself, “Oh! That's me too! That includes me!”
thinker
The Thinker wrote:
Quote You are taking an incident that occurred between Jesus and the apostles and you are generalizing and transferring the power He gave them to us also.
Please read John 20:19-24 again and tell me where is states that only the 11 were present. If we read other scriptures that catalog the event you will find that other disciples but the Eleven were present. Take Luke 24:33-36 for instance where it states:
Luke 24:33-36(NIV) reads
Quote They got up and returned at once to Jerusalem. There they found the Eleven and those with them, assembled together and saying, “It is true! The Lord has risen and has appeared to Simon.” Then the two told what had happened on the way, and how Jesus was recognized by them when he broke the bread.While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.”
As you can see there were other disciples present when Jesus breathed on them. I then considered that God acts through the Holy Spirit and thus anyone who is living by the Spirit would have the authority to forgive on not since at that period of time they would be 100% in tune with God. Of course if they living by the sinful nature(flesh) they would not have the authority as they would not be in tune with God.
Thinker………Peter ask , if my brother sin against me and ask me to forgive him how many times should I, seven times, and Jesus said seventy times seventy in one day. Forgiving others of there sin is no for just for the apostles of Jesus but for us all. As far as being forgiven our sins against God the Father, we already have been forgiven them by the sacrifice of Jesus. Because what does it say He who believes on me has (PASSED) from Judgment unto life. IMO
love and peace to you and yours brother………………………………..gene
Kerwin said:
Quote As you can see there were other disciples present when Jesus breathed on them. Kerwin,
You are correct that there were disciples in addition to the eleven that received the power to remit sins. Did I say anything to the contrary?Kerwin said:
Quote I then considered that God acts through the Holy Spirit and thus anyone who is living by the Spirit would have the authority to forgive on not since at that period of time they would be 100% in tune with God. The criterion was NOT the mere living in the Spirit as you say. The standard by which men could judge one's authority to forgive sins was the power to do signs and wonders. This was the standard that Jesus assumed even for Himself,
Quote So He got into a boat, crossed over, and came to His own city. Then behold, they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Be of Good cheer; your sins are forgiven you.” And at once some of the scribes said within themselves, “This man blasphemes!”
But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, “Why do you think evil in your hearts? Which is easier to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you,' or to say 'Arise and walk'? But that you may KNOW that the Son of Man has the authority on earth to forgive sins”. Then He said to the paralytic, “Arise and take up your bed and go to your house.” And he arose and departed to his house. (Matt 9:1-7)The “proof” that Jesus had the authority to forgive sins was evident by His compassionate works. This is how men could KNOW that He had the authority to forgive sins.
This standard was no less for those on whom He conferred the same authority.
Do you have such power to back up your “authority” to forgive sins? Are you visiting the dying in the hospitals and saying, “Your sins are forgiven you”, and then backing it up by saying “Go Home”, and they indeed go home in that instant?
thinker
Quote (Gene @ Mar. 28 2009,02:47) Thinker………Peter ask , if my brother sin against me and ask me to forgive him how many times should I, seven times, and Jesus said seventy times seventy in one day. Forgiving others of there sin is no for just for the apostles of Jesus but for us all. As far as being forgiven our sins against God the Father, we already have been forgiven them by the sacrifice of Jesus. Because what does it say He who believes on me has (PASSED) from Judgment unto life. IMO love and peace to you and yours brother………………………………..gene
Gene,
Nick, Kerwin and I are talking about apples. You are talking about oranges.And you have not satisfactorily answered the statement by Paul that Jesus is “all in all” (Colossians 3:11). Until Jesus subjects Himself to the Father He remains “all in all.” Please stop dodging this fact.
thinker
Thinker ……..Show us the word (Jesus) in that scripture, you are assuming it means Jesus , but in fact it say (CHRISTOS) OR THE ANOINTING. is ALL in ALL. The anointing is the ELOHIM or POWER of the ONE LORD. Jesus plainly said that it was the FATHER (IN) him doing the Work , nowhere does it say He was the ONE doing the WORK. In fact Jesus even said ” if i do these things (BY) the finger, extended powers of GOD”, Jesus was doing them by the ELOHIM or POWER of the FATHER, not of himself. This is going to be true also in the future. The Seven eyes and Horns he has on him are the seven powers and intellect standing in front of the throne of the LORD of all the earth or better known to us as the FATHER. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………………………..gene
Quote (Gene @ Mar. 28 2009,03:37) Thinker ……..Show us the word (Jesus) in that scripture, you are assuming it means Jesus , but in fact it say (CHRISTOS) OR THE ANOINTING. is ALL in ALL. The anointing is the ELOHIM or POWER of the ONE LORD. Jesus plainly said that it was the FATHER (IN) him doing the Work , nowhere does it say He was the ONE doing the WORK. In fact Jesus even said ” if i do these things (BY) the finger, extended powers of GOD”, Jesus was doing them by the ELOHIM or POWER of the FATHER, not of himself. This is going to be true also in the future. The Seven eyes and Horns he has on him are the seven powers and intellect standing in front of the throne of the LORD of all the earth or better known to us as the FATHER. IMO peace and love to you and yours……………………………..gene
Gene,
Verse 1 says that “Christos” is seated at the right hand of God. This is Jesus. And Paul says that He is “all in all” (vs. 11). And until He yields to the Father He remains “all in all.”Deal with it bro!
thinker
Amen to that wonderful post brother Gene. Jesus is the ultimate fulfillment of God's word in human flesh.
Peace and love to you
AdamHi,
The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us.
That was not the Father or the Father's word but the vessel of Jesus.Hi tt,
Who knows?Prov30
4Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 28 2009,19:28) Hi,
The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us.
That was not the Father or the Father's word but the vessel of Jesus.
Hi brother Nick,
So what do you mean by that “word” then if not it was the “word of God” ?Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote The word is real food but Jesus came in the flesh.
I believe you mean the Son of God coming in the flesh since Jesus was not named Jesus until after he was born according to you.
Isn't is the Spirit of God living in the flesh of Jesus that declares him to be the Son of God?
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