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Nick………the word Angle can be interpreted as Messenger also. A Messenger can be anyone delivering a message. The message is the Spirit He delivers , Jesus said the (WORDS) he delivered were Spirit, not angles or messengers. Jesus himself was the messenger. IMO
love and peace to you and yours……………………………………………gene
G,
So angel fits for messenger in all those verses?
Perhaps we should offer more as you were only offered a few.Nick…………as i said the word translated as angle can also be translated as Messenger, look up the Greek word. Spirit and angle or messenger are not the same , SPIRIT is in (the message), brought by (the messenger), as i have plainly shown you, Jesus said His (WORDS) were SPIRIT He did not say He was. Words are messages, but some one has to bring them to us, and thats how we come to know the words of GOD Through a servant who acts as a messenger. Angles are also messengers and can deliver the words (Spirit intellect) of GOD to Us. Remember when Paul said How can they hear except someone be sent. The one Sent is the messenger, the message is the (words) Spirit or Intellect given from God through the messenger or angle or servant etc. IMO
peace and lovw to you and yours brother…………………………………………gene
Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 23 2009,16:45) John was commanded to write to the angels of the seven churches Kerwin, 1.To the angel of the church of Ephesus write….
2.To the angel of the church of Smyrna write….
3.To the angel of the church of Pergamos write….
4.To the angel of the church of Thyatira write….
5.To the angel of the church of Sardis write….
6.To the angel of the church of Philadelphia write….
7.To the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write….
Rev 1:11 saying, “Write what you see in a book and send it to the seven churches, to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.”To be honest with the text, the most we can say is that both are true. He was told to write to the churches and to the angel of each church.
Continuing with honesty, we must admit we do not read the words “banishment” and “exile” anywhere in the Bible text.
That can only be gleaned from secular history. Here is more of that history –Below the monastery is a cave, the Cave of St. Anne, where John is purported to have dictated the Book of Revelations to his disciple, Prochoros. It is reached by a flight of steep stairs, invariably crowded with tourists, at the end of which is a tiny room that also is notable for the number of tourists that are able to cram into it. English speakers are alerted to their destination by a sign:
http://www.abrock.com/Greece-Turkey/patmos.htmlSecular history is not primary to the establishing of Biblical fact. It is obvious that solid cases can be made in two directions regarding this discussion. That cases can be made in two directions is obvious in the “elohim” pursuit also.
I will be interested to see the likemindedness that will be established as that discussion continues. I will venture it will take the path of all other discussions here: two roads leading nowhere except were the individual desires to travel.
Seeking
The Thinker wrote:
Quote I differ with you on this one Kerwin. John was not commanded to write to the churches directly
John did what he was commanded and he addressed the letter about all that was revealed to seven specific churches in the Roman province of Asia
Revelations 1:4(NIV) reads
Quote John,
To the seven churches in the province of Asia:…The seven “letters” you speak of are not actually letters but are a small part of all that was revealed to him and those parts were to be addressed to the angels which is why I sought to resolve the quandary of why they were addressed to a messenger and yet were speaking as if they were addressed to the church itself. In fact each of the “letters” is followed by the words:
Revelations 2:29(NIV) reads
Quote He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
I want to point out that despite the “letters” being addressed to the angels of the seven churches it is clear that they were meant to be heard by at least all the specific seven churches the whole book of Revelations was addressed to and I believe by all Christians even though they were not the ones literally written too.
I am in discussion with Gene elsewhere.
Gene told Nick:
Quote Spirit and angel or messenger are not the same Gene,
The words “spirit” and “messenger” may refer to the same. Hebrews 1 says that “angels” are ministering “spirits.”thinker
Kerwin said:
Quote I want to point out that despite the “letters” being addressed to the angels of the seven churches it is clear that they were meant to be heard by at least all the specific seven churches the whole book of Revelations was addressed to and I believe by all Christians even though they were not the ones literally written too. I agree with you without any hesitation. I say this without any “but” to add. And I thank you for being an example to the rest of us.
thinker
thinker ….brother i disagree with you, the word (Spirit) and messenger can not be the same (person) because a word (expresed intellect) is a persons own intellect, but a messenger or angle is one who carries that message as Jesus was also., It can represent the persons mind or thoughts and there by identify the persons views, and a messenger is one who relays those thoughts of another.
This is simple understanding brother. Even in worldly terms we know a messenger is not the message He delivers. He is not speaking his own words as Jesus plainly said. The words He spoke were from the FATHER not Him and they (the words) are Spirit and life. What is so hard to understand about that. We need to truly (Believe what Jesus said) and this all falls into place brother.love and peace to you and yours……………………………………..gene
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 24 2009,13:26) G,
What is this spirit intellect?
Is it in the bible or did you add it?
Nick………for about the hundredth time, Words (ARE SPIRIT) as Jesus said. So Spirit is Words. They equal each other, Now with that understanding ask YOURSELF, what is a WORD , is it not the EXPRESSION OF THOUGHT, THE MIND, EXPRESSING ONES INTELLECT REGARDING SOMETHING. Now can we lay this to rest brother. Its not my idea it what Jesus said brother.Gene said:
Quote the word (Spirit) and messenger can not be the same (person) because a word (expresed intellect) is a persons own intellect, but a messenger or angle is one who carries that message as Jesus was also. Gene,
In a previous post you admitted that Jesus had a will of His own. Therefore, Jesus was much more than a mere “messenger” that carries a message. For a mere messenger has no will of his own.thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 25 2009,06:11) Hi tt,
Angels have wills and some are in chains because of that fact.
Your point being…?thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 25 2009,08:48) Hi tt,
Angels are messengers.
This was established aeons ago. Still don't get your point.thinker
Quote Thinker: Gene,
In a previous post you admitted that Jesus had a will of His own. Therefore, Jesus was much more than a mere “messenger” that carries a message. For a mere messenger has no will of his own.Quote Nick: Hi tt,
Angels have wills and some are in chains because of that fact.Thinker responds: Your point being…?
thinker
Quote Nick Hassan,Mar. 25 2009,08:48]Hi tt,
Angels are messengersThinker responded, “This was established aeon
ago. Still don't get your point.”Point is – Angels have wills of their own, therefore they must be like Jesus, “much more than a mere messenger that carries a message”, according to your logic.
Seeking
Seeking said:
Quote Point is – Angels have wills of their own, therefore they must be like Jesus, “much more than a mere messenger that carries a message”, according to your logic. First, where does the Bible say that angels have wills of their own? Second, Jesus has a name that is “so much better” than the angels. His name is “so much better” that the Father addresses Jesus as “Son” and as “God” and Creator,
Quote …He has by inheritance obtained a name that is so much better than the angels, as he has by inheritance obtained a name a more excellent name than they. For to which of the angels did He ever say, “You are my Son”….
and again, “I will be to Him a Father, and He shall Be to me a Son”….
To the Son He [the Father] says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever”….
And: “You Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth.” (Heb. 1:4-10)
thinker
thethinker,Mar. wrote:[/quote]
Quote First, where does the Bible say that angels have wills of their own? Quote Posted: Mar. 24 2009,11:11 Hi tt,
Angels have wills and some are in chains because of that fact.Thinker,
you left this point made by Nick unchallenged and responded,
“Quote Your point being…? If you doubted the statement, that was the time to challenge it. From your response, it appears you missed the point.
Quote Second, Jesus has a name that is “so much better” than the angels. I simply took you to where your logic led. You have refuted
where your logic led very well.I would conclude Nick sees angels excercising a will contrary to God's will in this passage –
Jud 1:6 And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day–
Blessings in your walk with the Lord,
Seeking
Nick said:
Quote Angels have wills and some are in chains because of that fact. Then Seeking said:
Quote Thinker,
you left this point made by Nick unchallenged and respondedSeeking and Nick,
I admit that angels were originally created with wills. But those who sinned and are in chains are “reserved” for judgment. There is no turning back for them. And those who did not sin are also “reserved” but for service to God. So there could be no possibility of rebellion. So do angels have wills NOW? I still fail to see how this is germane to Christology.Blessings to you both,
thinkerthinker ………you touched on a good point, and i will give you what i think, You ask do angles have Wills NOW, yes they do just as we have and Jesus did, We all have to submit, our wills the the Will of the Father, right, as Jesus did His, but because we do that, does that mean our wills are not of any value to us. No it does not because, if our will are in line with the FATHERS we can do what ever we will to do , its only when it is contrary to his will we must submit our wills. Jesus said Father I will that these be with me, that where i am they may also be. That will happen why because that is not against our Fathers will. So any will that is not against the FATHERS is with the FATHERS, and there is no need to destory it. The Fathers Will is not only what good for Him, but whats good for us and everyone else also. When we pray aren't we expressing our will at times and doesn't he give us our desires if they are in accordance with his will and pleasure. Our Heavenly Father Loves us exceedingly and is very long suffering toward us all.
Thinker you also said about Jesus that God created him lower then the angles but crowned him above all things, But if you go back and look brother you will find that Hebrews was quoting King David , when He said .”What is (MAN) that thou art mindful of Him, for thou hast created Him lower then the angles for the tasting of death, but hast crowned him above the angels and put all things under His (mans) feet. Then Hebrews goes on the say “But we do not see all things under him (now), but (What do we see) we see Jesus who (like) us was made lower then the angles (NOW) Crowned with glory and HONOR”. SO will we also be in time Brother, Jesus is the prototype of Us. He is the exact (IMAGE) of GOD and so will we all be someday brother. IMO
Much love and peace to you and your brother…………………………………………..gene
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