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Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 22 2009,08:22) Quote Seeking,
This whole subject has gotten comical now.You have made it thus!
Quote You speak as if yours and Gene's theory is not a “mailman” theory too. Do you think that John was permitted to check in and out on the ferry boat from Patmos to the mainland and back everyday? Banishment to an island was a common mode of punishment; and there was a distinction made by this act in favor of those who were thus banished. The more base, low, and vile of criminals were commonly condemned to work in the mines; the more decent and respectable were banished to some lonely island. See the authorities quoted in Wetstein, “in loco.”
So now, based on your source, we have Paul a model prisioner, respected who very likely did not have the restrictions you imply. This is suggested now by commentators, the Bible account of his Roman detention, and other historians. Other historians report that island banishment allowed liberties to move about, but you report only the information that might give credence to your “mailman” theory.
Ignore all sources but your own and hold to the same invalid argument if you must. As I asked, is this a part of your “logic”
and “common sense” game?Quote This definitely could not have been the case. You make an already disproven statement.
Quote So if John was capable of distributing the letters as you and Gene say it would have required at least one “mailman.” Yes, Paul may have given the letter to a Roman government “mailman”. That is a far cry from your “angelic mailman? theory.
Quote Fact is, we all need a “mailman” theory. I'll stick with one that has some semblance of reality, thank you!
Act 28:16-17 And when we came into Rome, Paul was allowed to stay by himself, with the soldier that guarded him. After three days he called together the local leaders of the Jews, and when they had gathered, he said to them, “Brothers, though I had done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans.
You see, the facts are that Paul was allowed to call meetings etc. and move about while experiencing Roman detention.
Act 22:25-29 But when they had stretched him out for the whips, Paul said to the centurion who was standing by, “Is it lawful for you to flog a man who is a Roman citizen and uncondemned?” When the centurion heard this, he went to the tribune and said to him, “What are you about to do? For this man is a Roman citizen.” So the tribune came and said to him, “Tell me, are you a Roman citizen?” And he said, “Yes.” The tribune answered, “I bought this citizenship for a large sum.” Paul said, “But I am a citizen by birth.”
So those who were about to examine him withdrew from him immediately, and the tribune also was afraid, for he realized that Paul was a Roman citizen and that he had bound him.I am confident you will continue to ignore the scriptures that tell us plainly of Paul's experiences with the Roman goverment
in favor of your outside sources and opinions.Paul wrote the letter and delivered it, either by hand or by then customary means. No “angelic mailmen” were involved!
Blessings,
Seeking
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 23 2009,06:51) G,
Your reasoning again arrogantly elevates itself against sacred scripture.
Wake up
Nick………what does arrogant got to do with it? Please show how i am being Araguaya. It seem you the one being arrogant here not me. imolove and peace…………………………………..gene
Quote (Gene @ Mar. 23 2009,04:22) To All……….the reason the Seven Spirits (intellects) are before the throne is Because they compose who and what GOD is, Jesus said GOD is SPIRIT, and they that worship Him must worship Him is spirit and truth, God Himself is composed of these Seven Spirits,and they are the (POWERS) that create and go Before the LORD God Himself, throughout the whole earth. These Spirits were hovering over the waters of the earth in Genesis and created all things in the earth they are under control of (ONE) LORD. He is the LORD OUR GOD. (He Exists with POWERS) Jesus now Has (ALL) Seven Spirits (Intellects in Him also) (EYES) and they are with Power, (HORNS), These Spirit powers effect the WILL of ONE LORD GOD. This is how the Father rules through Jesus and all his servants, By his spirit. Now if the Spirit of Him (LORD) be in you, it will produce in you what it produced in Jesus also. IMO Isa 61:1..> the Spirit of the LORD God is upon me ; because the LORD has Anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty th the captives; and to the opening of the prison to them that are bound.
Psa 104:30…> Thou sendest forth thy Spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.
love to you and yours………………………………………gene
G,
So God is in front of the throne of God?Nick………..The SEVEN SPIRITS of GOD or of POWERS are in FRONT of the Throne, And are the powers of one LORD. Hear O Israel the LORD our GOD (power) is ONE LORD. Notice it doesn't say (ONE GOD) Jesus Said in prayer to the FATHER, for thou (the Father) are the (ONLY) (TRUE) GOD (POWERS) The word GOD signifies (POWERS) of a LORD and Not the LORD HIMSELF, but his working Powers. And that is why they are in front of the throne. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………………………….gene
Thinker said to Seeking:
Quote You speak as if yours and Gene's theory is not a “mailman” theory too. Do you think that John was permitted to check in and out on the ferry boat from Patmos to the mainland and back everyday? Seeking replied:
Quote Banishment to an island was a common mode of punishment; and there was a distinction made by this act in favor of those who were thus banished. The more base, low, and vile of criminals were commonly condemned to work in the mines; the more decent and respectable were banished to some lonely island. See the authorities quoted in Wetstein, “in loco.” But John was banished for preaching. Why would the authorities banish him for preaching and then allow him to speak? The Scripture expressly declares he was banished for preaching,
Quote I, John your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance of jesus Christ, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and on account of the testimony of Jesus Christ (1:9) Looks like silencing to me!
and
Quote When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain on account of the word of God and on account of the testimony which they held (6:9) Looks like silencing to me.
again,
Quote Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded on account of their witness to Jesus and on account of the word of God (20:6) Looks like silencing to me.
Seeking said:
Quote So now, based on your source, we have Paul a model prisioner, respected who very likely did not have the restrictions you imply. When you get to heaven try convincing those who were slain and had their heads cut off that they were considered “model prisoners” by the state.
Thinker said:
Quote Fact is, we all need a “mailman” theory. Seeking replied:
Quote I'll stick with one that has some semblance of reality, thank you! Jesus replies to Seeking,
Quote I , Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you these things in the churches John had nothing to do with the distribution of the Revelation. Jesus said, I, Jesus sent my angel….
You're not helping your cause by ignoring Gene's outrageous idea that God is 8 in 1.
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 23 2009,09:20) G,
So God has seven spirits that are Him and they are in front of Him?
Does that make eight?
Nick………The LORD, who is (ONE) controls the seven Spirits or Powers and these seven make one unit of Power called GOD or POWERS or ELOHIM of ONE LORD. These Powers are before His throne as Scripture says. Why do you think Jesus did not say for thou art ONE GOD. No He said the LORD our GOD is ONE LORD, NOT GOD. Why did Jesus not say one LORD and ONE GOD.
Let me paraphrase it for you . Hear O Israel the LORD our POWER is ONE LORD> Why did He not say one GOD, it is because there are many GODS or powers as Jesus said (know you not you are GODS) Explain this to us if you can.peace and love to you and yours……………………………..gene
Hi tt,
You say
“John had nothing to do with the distribution of the Revelation. Jesus said, I, Jesus sent my angel….”Interesting.
Rev1 says
1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant JohnNothing about distribution in there.
Should we presume?
thinker[/quote]
Quote But John was banished for preaching. Why would the authorities banish him for preaching and then allow him to speak? The Scripture expressly declares he was banished for preaching, Quote , John your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance of jesus Christ, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and on account of the testimony of Jesus Christ (1:9) Where does the scripture you posted mention banishing?
Where does the scripture “expressly declare” he was banished for preachig? Just continue to ignore the text and express your opinion as fact.Quote Looks like silencing to me! Poor reading comprehension.
Quote When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain on account of the word of God and on account of the testimony which they held (6:9) Looks like silencing to me.
Do you mean to imply John was a part of the group spoken of? Try getting real for just a moment.
Quote When you get to heaven try convincing those who were slain and had their heads cut off that they were considered “model prisoners” by the state Again, get real! We are speaking of John's current situation in the text. It would be about as dumb for me to say, try convincing those who received their dead back by resurrection
that they were suffering heavy persecution. (Heb.11)
Quote Quote I , Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you these things in the churches John had nothing to do with the distribution of the Revelation. Jesus said, I, Jesus sent my angel….
You are quite the text manipulator!
I , Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you these things in the churchesThe angel testified to John, and the text you cite proves nothing about distribution thus your statement, “John had nothing to do with the distribution of the Revelation. ” is totally unfounded. It is ludicrous! He wrote the letter. He wrote it at the command of Jesus – Rev 1:19 Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are and those that are to take place after this.
Quote You're not helping your cause by ignoring Gene's outrageous idea that God is 8 in 1. This is your “outrageous” accusation regarding Gene.
Will you continue to insist to make this subject comical?
Blessings in your walk with the Lord,
Seeking
Hi tt,
It is no less amusing to suggest that God is 3 in 1.
God and God's own Spirit and God's Son being one God could only come from the shallow minds of men.Seeking said:
Quote Where does the scripture you posted mention banishing?
Where does the scripture “expressly declare” he was banished for preachig? Just continue to ignore the text and express your opinion as fact.It says that John was banished on account of the word of God and account of the testimony of Jesus.
Seeking said:
Quote Poor reading comprehension. You're starting to get a tad mean spirited.
thinker said:
Quote When you get to heaven try convincing those who were slain and had their heads cut off that they were considered “model prisoners” by the state Seeking replied:
Quote We are speaking of John's current situation in the text. It would be about as dumb for me to say, try convincing those who received their dead back by resurrection
that they were suffering heavy persecution. (Heb.11)You said that “model prisoners” received preferential treatment taking one example from Paul. You inferred a general principle based on Paul's situation. But having your head cut off is not preferential treatment. Again, when you get to heaven look those martyrs in the face and say
“According to my sources you should have had perferential treatment if you were model prisoners. Therefore, the reason your heads were cut off is because you misbehaved. You were initially imprisoned for Jesus. But your beheading was your own fault because you did not conduct yourselves as 'model prisoners.' “
Seeking said:
Quote The angel testified to John, and the text you cite proves nothing about distribution thus your statement, “John had nothing to do with the distribution of the Revelation. ” is totally unfounded. It is ludicrous! He wrote the letter. He wrote it at the command of Jesus – Rev 1:19 Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are and those that are to take place after this. What!? Jesus said, “I have sent my angel TO TESTIFY of these things in the churches.” And you say that nothing is said about distribution? Nothing was said of distribution when the angel commanded John to write. Yet you infer something about distribution. But the angel commanded John only to write.
I am thinking now that the angel that commanded John to write was the same angel that was sent by Jesus to testify of those things in the churches. I am wondering if you deny that angels can have pyhsical contact with the world. An angel came into Peter's jail cell and “struck” him in his side, then loosed his chains and set him free.
thinker
The Thinker wrote:
Quote The narrative clearly says that seven churches were addressed,
I can see that since the whole book of Revelations is addressed to the seven churches that is in the province of Asia. My question is why were just seven churches selected when more existed and why those seven particular churches. Is Patmos located in what was the Roman province of Asia?
The Thinker wrote:
Quote It was ten virgins Kerwin.
You are correct as my memory did not hold up. Seven was used as the number of brothers a woman married and it was also the number of baskets of bread gathered after 7 loaves were shared among the four thousand. There were also twelve baskets of pieces gathered after five loaves and two fishes were shared among the five thousand..
The number 10 by the way symbolizes ultimate completion and twelve the union of the people with God which explains the 12 apostles.
Here is what Wikipedia states about Jewish numeric symbolism.
The Thinker wrote:
Quote How is your lack of information on the seven spirits an indication of anything?
It tells me I could find nothing to back up the arguments about the seven spirits I was hearing. That is why I asked and have not received any supporting evidence from whoever felt a need to back up the words they were writing.
The Thinker wrote:
Quote Besides, Jesus explicitly said that He had sent His own angel to see to it that the book was distributed
I can see your argument but it is my impression Jesus is the speaking of the angel who brought the message to John trusting John to forward the message to those who needed to hear it.
Revelations 1:1(NIV) reads
Quote ,,,,He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
thethinker,Mar. wrote:Quote It says that John was banished on account of the word of God and account of the testimony of Jesus. Negative! You have refused to acknowledge what the word says regarding Paul's treatment as a “Roman Citizen”, his own appeal for fair treatment. It says he was on Patamos. Nothing about banisment whatsoever.
You are not making banishment statements and statements regarding his freedom as a Roman prisoner, “on account of the word of God.” Here is the word of God, AGAIN.
Act 28:16-17 And when we came to Rome, the centurion delivered up the prisoners to the captain of the barrack, but Paul was suffered to remain by himself, with the soldier guarding him. And it came to pass after three days, Paul called together those who are the principal men of the Jews, and they having come together, he said unto them: `Men, brethren, I–having done nothing contrary to the people, or to the customs of the fathers–a prisoner from Jerusalem, was delivered up to the hands of the Romans;
Quote Seeking said:Poor reading comprehension. You're starting to get a tad mean spirited.
Negative! A statement of reality that is continuuing. Either that or you deliberately refuse to honor the text.
Quote You said that “model prisoners” received preferential treatment taking one example from Paul. You inferred a general principle based on Paul's situation. Here are the two examples I cited AGAIN:
Act 28:16-17 And when we came to Rome, the centurion delivered up the prisoners to the captain of the barrack, but Paul was suffered to remain by himself, with the soldier guarding him. And it came to pass after three days, Paul called together those who are the principal men of the Jews, and they having come together, he said unto them: `Men, brethren, I–having done nothing contrary to the people, or to the customs of the fathers–a prisoner from Jerusalem, was delivered up to the hands of the Romans;
Act 22:25 But when they had stretched him out for the whips, Paul said to the centurion who was standing by, “Is it lawful for you to flog a man who is a Roman citizen and uncondemned?” When the centurion heard this, he went to the tribune and said to him, “What are you about to do? For this man is a Roman citizen.” So the tribune came and said to him, “Tell me, are you a Roman citizen?” And he said, “Yes.” The tribune answered, “I bought this citizenship for a large sum.” Paul said, “But I am a citizen by birth.”
So those who were about to examine him withdrew from him immediately, and the tribune also was afraid, for he realized that Paul was a Roman citizen and that he had bound him.Do we not infer principal based on observable and recorded fact! I am basing my conclusions based of observable, Biblical, recorded fact and not on mere conjecture.
Quote What!? Jesus said, “I have sent my angel TO TESTIFY of these things in the churches.” And you say that nothing is said about distribution? Correct! Dictation and distribution are two different things.
That dictated may not be distributed.This command of Jesus strongly infers John is to write and distribute (Funny you jumped over this verse to go to v.19)
Rev 1:11 saying, “Write what you see in a book and send it to the seven churches, to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.”
Quote Yet you infer something about distribution. But the angel commanded John only to write. Thinker, here is proof, in black – white – red, that you ignore what the text says in favor of proving your point. PLEASE note the bold underlined words of Jesus.
Quote But having your head cut off is not preferential treatment. Again, when you get to heaven look those martyrs in the face and say “According to my sources you should have had perferential treatment if you were model prisoners. Therefore, the reason your heads were cut off is because you misbehaved. You were initially imprisoned for Jesus. But your beheading was your own fault because you did not conduct yourselves as 'model prisoners.' “
We are speaking of John's current situation in the text.
Blessings in your walk with the Lord,
Seeking
Thinker said:
Quote Besides, Jesus explicitly said that He had sent His own angel to see to it that the book was distributed Kerwin replied:
Quote I can see your argument but it is my impression Jesus is the speaking of the angel who brought the message to John trusting John to forward the message to those who needed to hear it. Kerwin,
I have thought about it and I concede to you that the angel that “testified” in Rev. 22 was NOT entrusted with the distribution of the book. But it may also be pointed out that the distribution of the book was NOT entrusted to John either. The historical facts cannot be ignored. John was banished to the isle of Patmos for preaching the word. Contemporaneously with this God's righteous saints were being beheaded for preaching the word. The sole purpose for the banishment of John and the murdering of the saints was to shut them up. Their persecutors wanted to silence them. But some here are denying common sense. For example, one person is suggesting that if John was a “model prisoner” he would be allowed to speak (though he was banished for preaching).John was more than a mere prisoner in a jail cell. John was a more serious threat! He was taken away from the mainland and confined to an island. Yet if he behaves as a “model prisoner” he will be allowed to speak by letter though mailmen? Nonsense!
Therefore, help from heaven was needed so that the book could be distributed. This help came from angels. Angels usually took human form when they were sent to the earth. The seven spirits from God were those angelic agents. It says that they were “sent into all the land” (Asia). I want to suggest that my view is being resisted primarily because men are accustomed to the capital “S” in reference to these spirits. This goes to show the confusion that translator bias can cause.
Because of the “S” being erroneously capitalized we have Gene saying that the seven “Spirits” are “elohim” (powers). This has resulted in his presenting to us a bizarre view of God (God is 8 in 1). And tradition has said that the number seven in reference to the spirits is “symbolic” for the Holy Spirit. Yet the number seven is literal in reference to the churches and the angels to whom John was commanded to write.
WHY WAS JOHN COMMANDED TO WRITE TO THE ANGELS of the seven churches? If John was entrusted with the distribution of the book as you say, then why was he commanded to address the angels specifically? The seven angels which were the original recipients of the book were the seven spirits that were sent out into Asia to distribute it.
I will repeat that I concede to you that the angel of Rev. 22 was not entrusted with the distribution of the book
thinker
Thinker………that was God talking about Jesus, Jesus is also considered as a messenger or angle of GOD. Jesus is GOD's Spokesman and delivers to us GOD WORDS, As GOD the FATHER revealed them to Jesus He also sent Jesus to Speak them to John, and John wrote it down and sent the letter to the Leaders of the seven Churches.
I know this can get a little confusing, but remember it say's this was the revelation that (GOD) Gave Jesus, to show unto his servants, the things that must shortly come to pass; and He (GOD) sent and symbolized it , by his Angle or messenger (Jesus) unto John. It is evident that it was Jesus himself, Rev 1:8 ..> i am he that liveth, and was dead; and behold, I am alive forevermore. Jesus Himself delievered the message from the Father to John. IMO
love and peace to you and yours……………………….gene
G,
Jesus is once called a messenger.
Angel can mean messenger but were all these ANGELS?Numbers 21:21
And Israel sent messengers unto Sihon king of the Amorites, saying,Numbers 22:5
He sent messengers therefore unto Balaam the son of Beor to Pethor, which is by the river of the land of the children of his people, to call him, saying, Behold, there is a people come out from Egypt: behold, they cover the face of the earth, and they abide over against me:Numbers 24:12
And Balaam said unto Balak, Spake I not also to thy messengers which thou sentest unto me, saying,Deuteronomy 2:26
And I sent messengers out of the wilderness of Kedemoth unto Sihon king of Heshbon with words of peace, saying,Joshua 6:17
And the city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent.Joshua 6:25
And Joshua saved Rahab the harlot alive, and her father's household, and all that she had; and she dwelleth in Israel even unto this day; because she hid the messengers, which Joshua sent to spy out Jericho.Joshua 7:22
So Joshua sent messengers, and they ran unto the tent; and, behold, it was hid in his tent, and the silver under it.Judges 6:35
And he sent messengers throughout all Manasseh; who also was gathered after him: and he sent messengers unto Asher, and unto Zebulun, and unto Naphtali; and they came up to meet them.The Thinker wrote:
Quote I have thought about it and I concede to you that the angel that “testified” in Rev. 22 was NOT entrusted with the distribution of the book
That shows a willingness to adapt your beliefs to what the evidence shows and that is a characteristic, guided by God, we should all strive to nurture.
The Thinker wrote:
Quote But it may also be pointed out that the distribution of the book was NOT entrusted to John either
I am not sure why it cannot be ignored since I do not see how it is relevant to the gospel of Jesus our Lord and in fact it is merely a point of history for the Christian Church; much of what is either unknown or hearsay. In this case scripture does not tell us how John's letter of prophesy was sent to those outside of Patmos and from what I observe we are speculating based on little evidence, which I am not even sure is reliable.
The Thinker wrote:
Quote The seven spirits from God were those angelic agents.
I certainly see that as a possibility though the seven spirits may also be the:
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2003. Reads
Quote The actual though unstated sense or significance of something:
Though I have my doubts about the later. But doubts aside I have not looked into the matter which was suggested to me by Gene, though I may not have understood him correctly.
The Thinker wrote:
Quote Because of the “S” being erroneously capitalized we have Gene saying that the seven “Spirits” are “elohim” (powers).
Angels are both elohim and powers as they are members of God’s family but that is not what Gene seems to be speaking of.
The Thinker wrote:
Quote And tradition has said that the number seven in reference to the spirits is “symbolic” for the Holy Spirit.
That causes a flaw in his argument that Elohim is referring to the seven spirits since it would then only be one Spirit. The Spirit would have to be literally seven spirits for his argument to hold up and that does sound like a seven but one argument unless you say the seven spirits are not actual spirits but are instead aspects of the one Spirit. Still that solution also causes a flaw in his argument. I guess I will have to go to him to understand how he reasons it out in his own mind.
The Thinker wrote:
Quote Yet the number seven is literal in reference to the churches and the angels to whom John was commanded to write.
I agree it could well be speaking of the seven angels though I am not sure we should take the number seven as literal just like I am not sure we should take the number 144,000 as literal.
The Thinker wrote:
Quote WHY WAS JOHN COMMANDED TO WRITE TO THE ANGELS of the seven churches?
He was not commanded to write to the angels of the seven churches but instead was instructed to:
Revelations 1:11(NIV) reads
Quote …: “Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.”
And
Revelations 1:19(NIV) reads
Quote “Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later.
That is why I have concluded that the letters are part of what he saw. I want to point out that “angel” if replaced by “spirit” could also be speaking about the “sense or significance of” the church in question which would go better with the context of the letters than if “angel” meant one of the Elohim or even a human messenger. Still the Greek word does means “envoy” and that word use seems to be consistent so it seems those letters are addressed to the angels themselves and not to the church or it would have said to the church. It is also possible that they are addressed to a human messenger and are informing them how Jesus views the church under their jurisdiction though the way of speaking in the letters is not one I would use in that situation.
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 23 2009,15:11) Quote I am not sure why it cannot be ignored since I do not see how it is relevant to the gospel of Jesus our Lord and in fact it is merely a point of history for the Christian Church; much of what is either unknown or hearsay. In this case scripture does not tell us how John's letter of prophesy was sent to those outside of Patmos and from what I observe we are speculating based on little evidence, which I am not even sure is reliable. Excellent point Kerwin.
Quote
The Thinker wrote:WHY WAS JOHN COMMANDED TO WRITE TO THE ANGELS of the seven churches?
He was not commanded to write to the angels of the seven churches but instead was instructed to:
Revelations 1:11(NIV) reads
…: “Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.”
Kerwin, this point has been made to Thinker several times as you can see in past posts. I would like to see him as honest with the text as he was to admit his error to you.
Blessings in your walk with the Lord,
Seeking
Thinker said:
Quote But it may also be pointed out that the distribution of the book was NOT entrusted to John either Kerwin replied:
…In this case scripture does not tell us how John's letter of prophesy was sent to those outside of Patmos and from what I observe we are speculating based on little evidence, which I am not even sure is reliable.
I differ with you on this one Kerwin. John was not commanded to write to the churches directly. He was commanded to write to the angels over those churches. If these were angels from heaven then this explains how the book was distributed. They probably assumed human form as angels usually did went sent on a mission to earth. John was banished to Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. He was banished because his persecutors wanted to silence him. So it goes against common sense that his persecutors would cooperate with him in distributing the book.
People here forget that the sole purpose of persecution, imprisonment, beatings and death was to silence the apostles or anyone who preached Jesus. We are told in Acts that the Jews plotted to kill the apostles for preaching Jesus but Gamaliel talked them out of it. So they went with Gamaliel's advice and let the apostles go. But the Jews first beat the apostles and commanded them not to preach Jesus
Quote And they agreed with him [Gamaliel], and when they had called for the apostles and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go (Acts 5:40) The purpose of all persecution was to shut the mouths of Christians. Yet there is one here that says if a Christian was a “model prisoner” he would be allowed to speak. Nonsense! A model prisoner may have enjoyed some perks by their persecutors but the right to speak in the name of Jesus wasn't one of them. He assumes that because Paul was able to distribute his letters then John was also able. But Paul was only under house arrest (Acts 28:30). John was altogether banished and sent away to Patmos which was used for the purpose of punishing criminals and for silencing someone they did not want to necessarily kill. It was much more difficult for John to distribute the Revelation by human agency then it was for Paul his epistles.
Kerwin wrote:
Quote Angels are both elohim and powers as they are members of God’s family but that is not what Gene seems to be speaking of. Follow Gene's posts. He believes that the seven spirits are the “elohim” who created man.
thinker said:
Quote And tradition has said that the number seven in reference to the spirits is “symbolic” for the Holy Spirit. Kerwin replied:
Quote That causes a flaw in his argument that Elohim is referring to the seven spirits since it would then only be one Spirit. The Spirit would have to be literally seven spirits for his argument to hold up and that does sound like a seven but one argument unless you say the seven spirits are not actual spirits but are instead aspects of the one Spirit. Still that solution also causes a flaw in his argument. I guess I will have to go to him to understand how he reasons it out in his own mind. Again, follow his posts. He certainly appears to be saying that the seven spirits are a literal seven. (and I agree). And when I showed him this made God 8 in 1 he did not deny it. He can clarify himself publically.
Kerwin wrote:
Quote He was not commanded to write to the angels of the seven churches…. John was commanded to write to the angels of the seven churches Kerwin,
1.To the angel of the church of Ephesus write….
2.To the angel of the church of Smyrna write….
3.To the angel of the church of Pergamos write….
4.To the angel of the church of Thyatira write….
5.To the angel of the church of Sardis write….
6.To the angel of the church of Philadelphia write….
7.To the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write….Kerwin said:
Quote Revelations 1:11(NIV) reads…: “Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.” The word “send” simply means to “dispatch” whether by human or angelic agency. John was not in the position to employ human agency. John was commanded to write to the “messengers” of the churches. I believe the seven spirits were those messengers. It says that they were sent out into Asia (5:6).
Kerwin said:
Quote I do not see how it is relevant to the gospel of Jesus our Lord and in fact it is merely a point of history for the Christian Church I agree. At the beginning I was replying only to Gene's “elohim” theory of the seven spirits. But another here distracted me by making a federal case of what I was saying. I reminded this person why I was making my points and asked him to concentrate on Gene's erroneous ideas. But he wanted a piece of me for some reason.
thinker
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