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Here is something to consider as John is a Jew as well as being a Christian and would probably be well acquainted with Jewish philosophy as his readers may well be to. My source, like a newspaper, is basically hearsay as it is fairly well removed from the original sources.
Wikipedia entry on Logos reads:
Quote Philo (20 BC – 50 AD), a Hellenized Jew, used the term logos to mean the creative principle. Philo followed the Platonic distinction between imperfect matter and perfect idea. The logos was necessary, he taught, because God cannot come into contact with matter. He sometimes identified logos as divine wisdom. He taught that the Logos was the image of God, after which the human mind ((Greek Word) ) was made. He calls the Logos the “archangel of many names,” “taxiarch” (corps-commander), the “name of God,” also the “heavenly Adam”, the “man, the word of the eternal God.” The Logos is also designated as “high priest,” in reference to the exalted position which the high priest occupied after the Exile as the real center of the Jewish state. The Logos, like the high priest, is the expiator of sins, and the mediator and advocate for men: (Greek Word) (“Quis Rerum Divinarum Heres Sit,” § 42 , and (Greek Word) (“De Vita Mosis,” iii. 14 [ii. 155]). “The Logos is the first-born and the eldest and chief of the angels.”
Note: I replaced the Greek letters in the Wikipedia entry with the term “Greek Word” because they do not transcribe.
Seeking said:
Quote But, as with your many other additions to scripture, where did you learn communication was disallowed? Seeking,
I want to say that I am surprised you are contending with me on this issue rather than with Gene. My interpretation of the seven spirits is my reply to Gene's view that the seven spirits are “elohim” (powers). Gene's view creates a big problem for the non-trinitarian view.You asked why communication was disallowed.
I ask you: Why were any of the apostles imprisoned?
Answer: To shut them up!
If the apostles were impriisoned to shut them up then why would communication be allowed? Do I assume too much in thinking that you employ common sense when you interpret the Scriptures. Or are you more like Nick who says that common sense is faithless “intellectualism”?
Anyway, here is a small piece of historical information about Patmos for you:
Quote …it had all the requisites which could be desired for a place of punishment; and banishment to that place would accomplish that a persecutor could wish IN SILENCING an apostle without putting him to death (Barnes Notes on the Revelation, p.48) Please don't turn “Nick” on me who has abandoned reason. A little common sense will go a long way in understanding the Scriptures. Gene has said that John was quite capable of distributing the Revelation. This was not possible all by himself. Visitors would have to be allowed who could smuggle the letters out. But John was banished to shut him up. Therefore, no visitors would have been allowed him who could smuggle letters out. John needed help from heaven.
About the number seven: The churches were seven in number and so were the angels who carried the letters. Yet the spirits from God were not a real seven? What would be your basis for spiritualizing the number seven in reference to the spirits from God when the number is not spiritual in reference to the churches and the angels? The angels that distributed the Revelation are the spirits from God who were sent out into Asia.
When will you answer this: Why were the seven spirits sent out into Asia?
thinker
Hi tt,
You seem to revere intellect but truth is found in sacred scripture.
God is not obstructed…ever.Hi tt,
Angels distributed the book of Revelation.
For a rationalist you are leaning a long way out of your canoeGene said:
Quote …so I hardly think they were some invisible spirit beings, as thinker and Nick portrays them. Gene,
How do you know the seven spirits did not take a transient, human form? Angels took human form at the tomb after Jesus arose from the dead? An angel visited Peter in jail and “struck” Peter to wake him up. The spirit made physical contact with Peter somehow. He “struck” Peter. So even if the seven spirits did not take human form they were able to make physical contact with the world.Anyway, this subject is really about your idea that the seven spirits were “elohim” (powers).
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 22 2009,20:50) Hi tt,
You seem to revere intellect but truth is found in sacred scripture.
God is not obstructed…ever.
Why was Stephen killed? Answer: To silence him. Why was John banished? Answer: To shut him up.Therefore, it would be counter productive of John's persecutors to allow John to have visitors who could smuggle out letters. What you call my reverence for “intellect” is really my reverence for common sense. People know the difference between rationalism and common sense-at least most people know.
thinker
You are making an error by taking the symbolism of Revelation literally. I did a search of the NIV bible and the only place that the seven spirits of God are mentioned is Revelations 3:1 and 4:5 and I know of no other source of early Jewish philosophy that mentions seven spirits. Your must remember that Christianity is a sect of Judaism and at that early date Jewish philosophy was pretty much all they had unless you are speaking of the New Testament scriptures we have today. If you can find anything that of that or earlier eras that back up your conjectures then please let me know but at present you appear to be spinning a fantasy based on a symbolic message of hope and warning.
I believe the number seven symbolizes completeness to the Jews because the creation of the world was completed in seven days. If someone wants to research the issue then that would probably be informative but this creating a religious tenet out of what is meant to be a symbolic message of prophecy and not the gospel appears to be a vain and suicidal pursuit. Please be careful what you choose to believe and tell others.
thethinker,Mar. wrote:[/quote]
Quote Seeking,
I want to say that I am surprised you are contending with me on this issue rather than with Gene. My interpretation of the seven spirits is my reply to Gene's view that the seven spirits are “elohim” (powers). Gene's view creates a big problem for the non-trinitarian view.I strive to side with scripture and they that hold to scripture.
You feel Gene's interpretation is far fetched, I guess, and you counter with a “mailman” theory.Quote You asked why communication was disallowed. I ask you: Why were any of the apostles imprisoned?
Answer: To shut them up!
Did your courses in logic teach, “report only the facts that support your theory – ignore other facts – most people won't check”?
Act 28:16-17 And when we came into Rome, Paul was allowed to stay by himself, with the soldier that guarded him. After three days he called together the local leaders of the Jews, and when they had gathered, he said to them, “Brothers, though I had done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans.
You see, the facts are that Paul was allowed to call meetings etc. and move about while experiencing Roman detention.
Quote Anyway, here is a small piece of historical information about Patmos for you: Again, you select the information that would tend to support your theory. If you have researched well, you know that the “Exile” theory has been challenged. Here is a little more by Barnes whom you cite:
It is commonly supposed that John was banished to this island by Domitian, about 94 a.d.
Banishment to an island was a common mode of punishment; and there was a distinction made by this act in favor of those who were thus banished. The more base, low, and vile of criminals were commonly condemned to work in the mines; the more decent and respectable were banished to some lonely island. See the authorities quoted in Wetstein, “in loco.”
So now, based on your source, we have Paul a model prisioner, respected who very likely did not have the restrictions you imply. This is suggested now by commentators, the Bible account of his Roman detention, and other historians. Other historians report that island banishment allowed liberties to move about, but you report only the information that might give credence to your “mailman” theory.
Quote Do I assume too much in thinking that you employ common sense when you interpret the Scriptures. It is always wise to incorporate facts with common sense. It has been well said, especially in this day and age,
that -“if it is common it probably does not reflect much sense.”Quote Please don't turn “Nick” on me who has abandoned reason. Nick and I have not entered into a pact where we “turn” each other “on” people. I strongly would question, between you and he, who has abandoned reason in favor of personal theory.
Quote When will you answer this: Why were the seven spirits sent out into Asia? Your insistence to reject an answer does not negate that one was given –
I need not discern why seven messengers or spirits and struggle with why that matches the number of churches when I take the text for what it says and am not trying to concoct some “mailman” theory of my own.
Thinker, just honor the text and you will have all your answers and your speculations will, again, be found wanting.
Rev 1:3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.
Rev 1:11 saying, “Write what you see in a book and send it to the seven churches
John clearly identified the seven spirits as those from whom the blessing of grace and peace were offered, along with the one who was sitting on the throne the spirits sat before. We know where the spirits are and what they are doing. I made this point before and you ignored it, something you forbid others to do. They were not “mailmen”, they were offering a blessing in v.4.
Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne,
Kerwin said:
Quote I believe the number seven symbolizes completeness to the Jews because the creation of the world was completed in seven days. Kerwin,
So there were NOT seven churches?1.To the angel of the church of Ephesus write….
2.To the angel of the church of Smyrna write….
3.To the angel of the church of Pergamos write….
4.To the angel of the church of Thyatira write….
5.To the angel of the church of Sardis write….
6.To the angel of the church of Philadelphia write….
7.To the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write….It is without dispute that the number seven was literal in reference to the number of churches and the number of angels to which John was commanded to write. But you suggest that the number seven somehow magically and mystically morphed and became a symbolic number in reference to the spirits that were sent from God. Other than translator bias (capital “S”) what is your exegetical basis for employing such a flip flop method?
thinker
Seeking said:
Quote You feel Gene's interpretation is far fetched, I guess, and you counter with a “mailman” theory. Seeking,
This whole subject has gotten comical now. You speak as if yours and Gene's theory is not a “mailman” theory too. Do you think that John was permitted to check in and out on the ferry boat from Patmos to the mainland and back everyday? This definitely could not have been the case. So if John was capable of distributing the letters as you and Gene say it would have required at least one “mailman.”We all must hold to a “mailman” theory. The difference is that you and Gene suppose that John's persecutors would have cooperated. But the historical circumstances necessitate that divine help was required.
I think that this is all I need to say of your last post. Your charge that I hold to a “mailman” theory is like the pot calling the kettle black. Fact is, we all need a “mailman” theory.
thinker
To All……….the reason the Seven Spirits (intellects) are before the throne is Because they compose who and what GOD is, Jesus said GOD is SPIRIT, and they that worship Him must worship Him is spirit and truth, God Himself is composed of these Seven Spirits,and they are the (POWERS) that create and go Before the LORD God Himself, throughout the whole earth. These Spirits were hovering over the waters of the earth in Genesis and created all things in the earth they are under control of (ONE) LORD. He is the LORD OUR GOD. (He Exists with POWERS) Jesus now Has (ALL) Seven Spirits (Intellects in Him also) (EYES) and they are with Power, (HORNS), These Spirit powers effect the WILL of ONE LORD GOD. This is how the Father rules through Jesus and all his servants, By his spirit. Now if the Spirit of Him (LORD) be in you, it will produce in you what it produced in Jesus also. IMO
Isa 61:1..> the Spirit of the LORD God is upon me ; because the LORD has Anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty th the captives; and to the opening of the prison to them that are bound.
Psa 104:30…> Thou sendest forth thy Spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.
love to you and yours………………………………………gene
The Thinker wrote:
Quote So there were NOT seven churches?
There were a whole lot more than seven churches. I suppose you are asking if John was actually addressing those seven churches specifically or was he addressing seven stereotype churches that represent all churches and the names are not really important. The seven indicating the complete Christian movement either at that time alone or throughout time.
While we are speaking of symbolism would someone provide the translation of the names of the seven churches because I would not be surprised if they have a significance in themselves as the name of both Greeks and Jews meant something to then and were not just meaningless labels.
The Thinker wrote:
Quote But you suggest that the number seven somehow magically and mystically morphed and became a symbolic number in reference to the spirits that were sent from God.
There is no mysticism necessary as it was an accepted practice in the Jewish culture to use numbers symbolically at that time and John and a number of his hearers were Jews. The question would be is if the Christian gentiles also accepted that proactive and I will point Jesus himself was known to use it in his parables as in the case with the seven virgins.
The Thinker wrote:
Quote Other than translator bias (capital “S”) what is your exegetical basis for employing such a flip flop method?
As I pointed out I actually did some research on seven spirits and found nothing. That is an indication that taking seven spirits literally is a probably a bad idea. I certainly invite you to do your own research and find if you can find those seven spirits mentioned previous to John’s vision in a non-prophetic setting.
The Thinker wrote:
Quote So if John was capable of distributing the letters as you and Gene say it would have required at least one “mailman.”
How do drugs get into prisoners today despite the fact that they are banned? Do you think the Roman guards were less likely to smuggle items for the prisoners especially since some of those guards were probably Christians who would eagerly desire to read or have John’s writings read them as well.
Thinker …………John was told to write it in a book and send it, right brother.
love and peace to you and yours……………………………………….gene
Gene said:
Quote To All……….the reason the Seven Spirits (intellects) are before the throne is Because they compose who and what GOD is, Jesus said GOD is SPIRIT, and they that worship Him must worship Him is spirit and truth, God Himself is composed of these Seven Spirits,and they are the (POWERS) that create and go Before the LORD God Himself, throughout the whole earth. These Spirits were hovering over the waters of the earth in Genesis and created all things in the earth they are under control of (ONE) LORD. He is the LORD OUR GOD. (He Exists with POWERS) Jesus now Has (ALL) Seven Spirits (Intellects in Him also) (EYES) and they are with Power, (HORNS), These Spirit powers effect the WILL of ONE LORD GOD. This is how the Father rules through Jesus and all his servants, By his spirit. Now if the Spirit of Him (LORD) be in you, it will produce in you what it produced in Jesus also. To All,
Pur brother Gene from here on end will never be in a position to find fault with Trinitarianism. Gene is Octogarian, the Father and the seven Spirits equal one God.thinker
Thinker………the seven Spirits are of one (UNIT of POWERS) and all seven of these powers are in control of by (ONE LORD) “Hear O Isral the (LORD) our God (Powers) is (ONE LORD) not one GOD< However with that said Jesus Said when Praying to THE FATHER, FOR THOU ART THE (ONLY) TRUE GOD. The thou was the FATHER and true (POWERS was the GOD) Brother it not hard to get it, if you can throw of those preconceived Trinitarian Ideologies that effect your thinking, you are a smart and intelligent person Brother, if you just start fresh and don't add to what scripture says i believe you can see this brother. IMO
love and peace to you and yours…………………………………………………gene
Thinker …> I just had an idea, Go to the Sir Isaac Newton project Site and read what He had to say about the word GOD, and with you reasoning ability think about it. Peace brother.
love to you and yours…………………………………………………..gene
Kerwin wrote:
Quote There were a whole lot more than seven churches. I suppose you are asking if John was actually addressing those seven churches specifically or was he addressing seven stereotype churches that represent all churches and the names are not really important. The seven indicating the complete Christian movement either at that time alone or throughout time. Kerwin,
The narrative clearly says that seven churches were addressed,1.To the angel of the church of Ephesus write….
2.To the angel of the church of Smyrna write….
3.To the angel of the church of Pergamos write….
4.To the angel of the church of Thyatira write….
5.To the angel of the church of Sardis write….
6.To the angel of the church of Philadelphia write….
7.To the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write….Quote There is no mysticism necessary as it was an accepted practice in the Jewish culture to use numbers symbolically at that time and John and a number of his hearers were Jews. The question would be is if the Christian gentiles also accepted that proactive and I will point Jesus himself was known to use it in his parables as in the case with the seven virgins. It was ten virgins Kerwin.
Quote As I pointed out I actually did some research on seven spirits and found nothing. That is an indication that taking seven spirits literally is a probably a bad idea. I certainly invite you to do your own research and find if you can find those seven spirits mentioned previous to John’s vision in a non-prophetic setting. How is your lack of information on the seven spirits an indication of anything?
Quote How do drugs get into prisoners today despite the fact that they are banned? Do you think the Roman guards were less likely to smuggle items for the prisoners especially since some of those guards were probably Christians who would eagerly desire to read or have John’s writings read them as well. Prisoners today have visitors come in to see them. The isle of Patmos was not visited except by those who were banished there and the authorities who were their taskmasters. So this would leave only the guards who could have helped John. It is not likely that a guard would have helped him because that would have been punishable by death.
Besides, Jesus explicitly said that He had sent His own angel to see to it that the book was distributed
Quote I, Jesus have sent my angel to testify to you these things in the churches (22:16) thinker
Quote (Gene @ Mar. 23 2009,06:13) Thinker …………John was told to write it in a book and send it, right brother. love and peace to you and yours……………………………………….gene
Gene,
John was told only to write the book.thinker
Quote (Gene @ Mar. 23 2009,06:46) Thinker………the seven Spirits are of one (UNIT of POWERS) and all seven of these powers are in control of by (ONE LORD) “Hear O Isral the (LORD) our God (Powers) is (ONE LORD) not one GOD< However with that said Jesus Said when Praying to THE FATHER, FOR THOU ART THE (ONLY) TRUE GOD. The thou was the FATHER and true (POWERS was the GOD) Brother it not hard to get it, if you can throw of those preconceived Trinitarian Ideologies that effect your thinking, you are a smart and intelligent person Brother, if you just start fresh and don't add to what scripture says i believe you can see this brother. IMO love and peace to you and yours…………………………………………………gene
Gene,
Trinitarians also say that “elohim” refers to one unit. For trinitarians it amounts to 3 in 1. But for you it amounts to 8 in 1. You are not hurting trinitarians any and we thank you for that.
thinker
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