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Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 21 2009,03:24) Nick said: Quote I do agree angels are spirits as Heb 1 shows. I do not agree with your shallow assumption that angels and not John gave us Revelation.
Nick,
Show where I said that the Revelation did not come from John. And then show how John distributed the Revelation to the seven churches in Asia seeing he was physically bound to the isle of Patmos. Explain how the seven churches received the Revelation without God sending heavenly messengers to help.They did not have UPS or Fed Ex in those days Nick.
thinker
Hi TT,
Why should you ASSUME and TEACH that angels MUST HAVE distributed the book?WE are not allowed to let human reason stand alongside sacred scripture as equal.
It is pathetically ignorant and vain.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 21 2009,06:57) Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 21 2009,03:24) Nick said: Quote I do agree angels are spirits as Heb 1 shows. I do not agree with your shallow assumption that angels and not John gave us Revelation.
Nick,
Show where I said that the Revelation did not come from John. And then show how John distributed the Revelation to the seven churches in Asia seeing he was physically bound to the isle of Patmos. Explain how the seven churches received the Revelation without God sending heavenly messengers to help.They did not have UPS or Fed Ex in those days Nick.
thinker
Hi TT,
Why should you ASSUME and TEACH that angels MUST HAVE distributed the book?WE are not allowed to let human reason stand alongside sacred scripture as equal.
It is pathetically ignorant and vain.
How did the seven churches in Asia get the book? This is not a trick question. If the book was not distributed to the seven churches then the contents must have been revealed to them like it was to John. HOW DID THEY GET THE BOOK NICK?thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 21 2009,08:38) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 21 2009,06:57) Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 21 2009,03:24) Nick said: Quote I do agree angels are spirits as Heb 1 shows. I do not agree with your shallow assumption that angels and not John gave us Revelation.
Nick,
Show where I said that the Revelation did not come from John. And then show how John distributed the Revelation to the seven churches in Asia seeing he was physically bound to the isle of Patmos. Explain how the seven churches received the Revelation without God sending heavenly messengers to help.They did not have UPS or Fed Ex in those days Nick.
thinker
Hi TT,
Why should you ASSUME and TEACH that angels MUST HAVE distributed the book?WE are not allowed to let human reason stand alongside sacred scripture as equal.
It is pathetically ignorant and vain.
How did the seven churches in Asia get the book? This is not a trick question. If the book was not distributed to the seven churches then the contents must have been revealed to them like it was to John. HOW DID THEY GET THE BOOK NICK?thinker
Hi tt,
We are not allowed to build our human reasoning into sacred doctrine.How did you get the book?
Perhaps others did in the same way?Thinker……….Heb 1 13 but to which of the angles (mesengers) said he at any time, sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies they footstool? 14…> are they (the messengers or angles) (all) ministering, spirits, in other words are they not all ministering to us the Spirits
(Words or intellects) of GOD , sent forth(the angles or messengers) to (minister) for them who shall be heirs of salvation.All who are heirs of salvation must be ministered unto with the Words or Spirit (intellect) of salvation. The ones who brings the Spirits or words are angles or messengers as Prophets, or even Jesus Himself these are not Spirit but deliver to us the words that are Spirit. How else could Jesus say the (WORDS) i am speaking (ARE SPIRIT)> Words are intellects and they ARE SPIRIT> it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out thinker. imo
peace and love to you and yours brother……………..gene
Nick said:
Quote We are not allowed to build our human reasoning into sacred doctrine. How did you get the book?
Perhaps others did in the same way?Nick,
It says in chapter 5:6 that the seven spirits were “sent” to go to and fro in all the land. Were the seven spirits sent with John's message to the seven churches? Or were they sent into all the land to eat cotton candy and do sight seeing?thinker
Hi tt,
You make some sort of connection between the work of the the angels in Rev1 and that of the seven spirits in Rev 5.
Wht gives you the right to assume that connection?
Is it written?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 21 2009,11:19) Hi tt,
You make some sort of connection between the work of the the angels in Rev1 and that of the seven spirits in Rev 5.
Wht gives you the right to assume that connection?
Is it written?
What were the seven spirits sent to Asia to do? Were they sent to eat cotton candy and do sight seeing? Or were they sent to minister to the seven churches?thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 21 2009,11:55) Hi tt,
What do you assume they did?
Or is it written?
In Scripture persons were always sent with a message. Revelation 5:6 says that the seven spirits were “sent.” Therefore, they had a message to give someone. Who was the message for if not the seven churches? You always avoid questions people put to you.My daughter and two of her friends are on Spring break visiting my home this week. I have showed them your replies and they think that you are not interested in serious discussion. They think that you just like to have the last word.
thinker
Hi tt,
Rev56And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
So the watching angels [Dan] are the eyes of God over the earth.
Why do you think they are messenger angels?thethinker,Mar. wrote:[/quote]
Quote How did the seven churches in Asia get the book? This is not a trick question. John obviously wanted the letter to be read, apparently aloud,
and expected the hearers to repond by “keeping” what was written:Rev 1:3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.
John states plainly who he is writing the letter to and wishes them grace and peace from the one who is on the throne and the spirits who are before the throne (we know where the spirits are at this point).
Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne,
The churches were familiar with a method of letter distribution
and were encouraged to circulate letters among themselves.Col 4:16 And when this letter has been read among you, have it also read in the church of the Laodiceans; and see that you also read the letter from Laodicea.
What necessitates the need for mailman angels?
I do not mean this to be a trick question nor do I mean this
query to be a trick query.Blessings in your walk with the Lord,
Seeking
seeking………..I agree John was very capable of making sure that all the Churches Got the information He was receiving.
peace and love to you and yours……………………………..gene
Seeking said:
Quote The churches were familiar with a method of letter distribution
and were encouraged to circulate letters among themselves.Seeking,
The churches would have needed to know about the letter before they could circulate it. How did they find out about the letter? John was exiled on Patmos where the Romans sent criminals to do hard labor.Quote What necessitates the need for mailman angels?
I do not mean this to be a trick question nor do I mean this
query to be a trick query.Your question is answered above. John was in exile and not allowed to have visitors. The Scripture expressly says that there were angels (messengers).
1.To the angel of the church of Ephesus write….
2.To the angel of the church of Smyrna write….
3.To the angel of the church of Pergamos write….
4.To the angel of the church of Thyatira write….
5.To the angel of the church of Sardis write….
6.To the angel of the church of Philadelphia write….
7.To the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write….The word “angel” simply means “messenger” and could refer to either men or spirit beings. Due to John's circumstances it must have spirit messengers.
1. Why was the number of churches and the number of spirits the same? There were seven churches and seven spirits.
2. Why were the spirits “sent” to go to and fro in the land (Asia)? To be “sent” in Scripture was to be sent with a message. They were “sent” (5:6).
Angels were “ministering spirits (Heb. 1:7). So they were not sent to Asia to eat cotton candy and do sight seeing. And if “sent” they had a message and that message was the message Jesus Christ gave to John.
thinker
Hi tt,
Do you assume that because the number is the same they MUST BE the same spirits?The HOWS have never been a problem for God.
We do not need to make arrangements for Him.thethinker,Mar. wrote:[/quote]
Thinker writes –Quote John was in exile and not allowed to have visitors. Where in scripture do you learn this?
Quote Why was the number of churches and the number of spirits the same? There were seven churches and seven spirits. Is not the number seven used frequently in scripture to denote
completeness? You also tie the angels of 1:5 to those in 5:6
which has been questioned before without response, if I recall correctly. Where does the scripture say the angels were sent? It does not say to the seven churches.Quote Angels were “ministering spirits (Heb. 1:7). So they were not sent to Asia to eat cotton candy and do sight seeing. You conclude rightly that angels were “ministering spirits.”
They are far more than “messengers” and often have a “mission.” You observe, ” they were not sent to Asia to eat cotton candy and do sight seeing.” They also were not relegated to the position of mailman.Thank you for your attempted explanation.
Blessings in your walk with the Lord,
Seeking
Seeking………..I believe that the angles or anyone God send to do his work are ministering (SPIRIT) they are not spirits themselves but minister (SPIRIT) and GOD sends them to do that. Spirit is not a being but the intellect or knowledge the person is conveying “the word i am speaking (ARE) SPIRIT”, Jesus said , not that He was a Spirit, His words were Spirit. Jeuss said He was (NOT) a Spirit “for a spirit has not flesh and bone as you see i Have.”, A messenger can have flesh and blood and deliever words of Spirit as the prophets and Jesus himself did, So the messengers in Revelations were most likely the leaders of the seven churches, Even one of them was most likely the Husband of Jezebel , as a proper interpretation of Rev 2:20 Shows, These messengers were directly responsible for much what was going on in their churches as scripture shows and were held responsible also, so I hardly think they were some invisible spirit beings, as thinker and Nick portrays them. IMO
love and peace to you and yours…………………………gene
Thinker said:
Quote John was in exile and not allowed to have visitors. Seeking replied:
Quote Where in scripture do you learn this? Where do I learn what? Where do I learn that John was exiled to Patmos? Or where do I learn that free communication was disallowed? Be specific in your question.
Seeking said:
Quote Is not the number seven used frequently in scripture to denote completeness? Was it seven churches literally or not? If so, then why was it seven messengers or spirits that were sent (the exact same number of churches)?
thinker
Hi tt,
Yes where do you obtain such evidence except in weak reasoning?
How often does the number seven occur in scripture?thethinker,Mar. wrote:[/quote]
Quote Seeking replied: Quote Where in scripture do you learn this? Where do I learn what? Where do I learn that John was exiled to Patmos? Or where do I learn that free communication was disallowed? Be specific in your question.
Brilliant as you are at untangling webs, I just knew you could do it here. It is obvious where you learned he was exiled to Patmos. But, as with your many other additions to scripture,
were did you learn communication was disallowed?Again, John – who was there – wrote a letter he knew would be read aloud. He knew nothing of refused communication.
If your “spirit mailmen” delivered the letter, how was it read?
Quote Was it seven churches literally or not? If so, then why was it seven messengers or spirits that were sent (the exact same number of churches)? I need not discern why seven messengers or spirits and struggle with why that matches the number of churches when I take the text for what it says and am not trying to concoct some “mailman” theory of my own.
Blessings in your walk with the Lord,
Seeking
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