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Kerwin and Thinker,
I'm going to reply to the “hybrid mix” of Jesus in one of my favorite threads: Conception.
Follow me there, if you wish.Love,
Mandythinker …..What do you do with the fact that God can not die, and to think The creator of Us can't relate with us is pure speculation no scripture says that, There are some things that are impossible and One of them is you can't be a Father of a person and HIS Son. Jesus did not say he was going to himself , but to (HIS FATHER, and OUR FATHER, HIS GOD and OUR GOD)>.
As far as Jesus weakness goes He was Just as weak as we are brother, or He could not have been truly ONE of US. He said He himself could do (nothing) the FATHER (IN) HIM does the works, NO where did Jesus ever say He was GOD the FATHER not once. Don't you think He would have said He was almighty GOD the FATHER of Us all if that were the case , or do you believe he was in disguise and if so why. Jesus never said he was our Father , but instructed us to Pray the Father who was in Heaven. Not here on earth in the form of a human being. He even told Peter that the Father in Heave had revealed who Jesus was to Him. And remember Peter said thou art the (SON) of the The LIVING GOD. Here is something also to consider thinker…..Act 2:32-33. “(GOD) has raised this Jesus to life (meaning he was dead), and we are all witnesses of the fact, Exulted to the right hand of GOD, He has (RECEIVED) from the FATHER the (Promised) HOLY SPIRIT and has poured out what you now see and hear” . Why would He have to recieve it if He was already almighty GOD. Thinker i greatly respect you intellect and reasonings but I believe you are wrong on this one brother. There is (NO) trinity there never was, remember also Jesus said clearly, “for thou (not himself) art the ONLY (no other) TRUE GOD> now how do you reconcile the teaching of the trinity with that brother. Jesus not only is not GOD the FATHER, he did not preexist his berth either. IMO
love and peace to you and yours brother……………………………….gene
Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 08 2009,05:16) Seeking said: Quote Jesus, as a child, “grew up” like we did even having to learn to
be submissive to his parents. I see him leading a dual life of
presence with God and taking on human form.Seeking,
While Jesus a boy and “learning to be submissive” did He ever sin? If you say “yes” then He is not the savior of men. If you say “no” then you infer that He mastered sin apart from the indwelling Holy Spirit. For He did not receive the Holy Spirit until He was a man. Either way you go you testify to the words in the book of Hebrews,Quote For such a High priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled separate from sinners….(7:25) I have to confess that I have difficulty understanding non-trinitarians. They want a Savior that is just like them. But I want a Savior that is NOT like me because I stink!
thinker
thinker
Hi TTTrue!
WJ
Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 09 2009,11:48) Gene wrote: Quote thinker …..No, i don't mean Jesus was a sinner who never sinned, that is a oxymoron, how could you be a sinner who never sinned. Whew! I'm glad we got that cleared up.
Gene said:
Quote He was a HUMAN Being who had the( (potential) to sinning but never did. That quite obvious or He could have never been tempted, right. I disagree! Hebrews 7 says that Jesus was without weakness
Quote For the law appoints high priests men who have weakness, but the word of oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever (Heb. 7:28) IT CLEARLY SAYS THAT MEN WHO HAVE WEAKNESS WERE APPOINTED BY THE LAW. BUT JESUS WAS APPOINTED BY OATH. THEREFORE, HE DID NOT HAVE WEAKNESS!
Gene said:
Quote He mastered sin by the power of God the FATHER. NO by his own self, something he or no man can do. What do you mean when you say “He mastered sin”? For me that means that I learn to stop sinning. Did Jesus start out a sinner and then learn to stop sinning? Please reconcile your statement with our every day experiences.
Gene said:
Quote You can't truly relate with Jesus BY moving His (exact) likeness from yourself. Jesus was one of US brother in every way without exceptions , except for one. he had the (FULLNESS) of GOD'S Spirit in Him, and the Spirit Kept Him from sinning. And that SAME Spirit Has to Keep us from sinning also. Your sword cuts both ways. For if God did not become a man like us then how can He relate to us? If God did not become flesh like us then He has no idea what it means to be like us. He does not understand us.
Jesus did not have the fulness of God's Spirit always. He did not receive the Spirit until immediately before His temptation. This means He truly overcame sin in His own power. He was BORN HOLY! You and I are not born holy. Therefore, there can never be a total relating to Christ.
thinker
Hii TTMore good points!
Its good to have someone on my side for a change!
WJ
WJ………I am on Your side to, but you have this trinity thing wrong brother, Actually in some ways what you have said helped my points especially about the Jesus created every thing teaching, is a help to what i believe. Because i also believe GOD (ALONE) created everything, the only difference is i believe Jesus is not that GOD that did it. We have i believe agreed to disagree on this subject. But i want you to know while i may not agree with you on this subject, I do respect you and postilion in life as a minister.
love and peace to you and yours……………………………….gene
To All……….the word LOGOS is simply word, it does not imply a person. It is a descriptor and simply means intelligent utterance. because thats what a (word) is. and nothing more. Trinitarians and preexistences try to turn logos into a person rather then an attribute of the ONE and ONLY TRUE GOD, so they alter the text by capitalizing and using the definite article to give them support. This is forcing the text, because in the original Greek text all the words were capitalized there were no upper and lower case usage to control their text as we use. This play on the John 1:1 verse to support the Trinitarian ideology and Preexistence ideology is wrong. IMO
love and peace to you all…………………………..gene
The Thinker wrote:
Quote I have repeatedly said elsewhere said that Jesus' conception was miraculous. So I do not understand why you would ask me such a question unless you were trying to paint me in a certain way.
I am just trying to find out what you believe and I am using scientific mythology in my search. I am doing this because I find the belief that Jesus is God confusing and I am curious how you believe it is understandable. I test the hypothesis I come up with by asking you. I assume you believe Jesus is the Son of God and I am trying to find out what you believe that means. I also am trying to understand what you believe Jesus being in nature God means while he is also in nature human. A hybrid would have a combination of both natures.
The Thinker wrote:
Quote Your “hybrid mix” talk betrays that you view God and man as totally other. This is the chief fallacy of non-Trinitarians.
This introduces another question. What do you think created in God’s image means?
The Thinker wrote:
Quote Therefore, for God to become a man would be that He would become like Himself but in a more limited way.
That is what a hybrid would be since a hybrid would have a mixture of features. This introduces another question and that is how would becoming a human being place any limits on God as God can do anything.
Mandy said:
Quote I have some things to add to this. But I'll be back later this evening. I come from the view that Jesus IS the literal son of God. So it may be interesting for you and I to talk about this. Looking forward to hearing more from you. Mandy,
I am humbled that you would want to discourse with me.thinker
Gene said to WJ:
Quote Because I also believe GOD (ALONE) created everything, Gene,
Don't throw us a “change up” now my bro. Recently you have repeatedly said that impersonal “powers” created all things. I refer to your repeated statements in the “Elohim” thread in the “Truth or Tradition” forum. You clearly deny that Elohim are Persons.thinker
Kerwin asked thethinker:
Quote What do you think created in God’s image means? It means that after God created man He looked upon him and saw the reflection of Himself (before sin of course). So for God to become man would mean that He would exist in His own likeness but in humility instead of power.
Kerwin said:
Quote This introduces another question and that is how would becoming a human being place any limits on God as God can do anything. This question has been answered by the apostle Paul. He said that Christ “made Himself of no reputation and took upon Himself the form of a servant.” The verb is in the middle voice which means that He acted upon Himself. He voluntarily limited Himself (Philippians 2).
You say that God can do anything. I agree. Therefore, He can impose limitations upon Himself if He chooses. If you say “no” to this then God cannot do anything.
thinker
The Thinker wrote:
Quote He voluntarily limited Himself (Philippians 2).
So you are saying that it was not taking on the human form that put limits on Him but His choice to limit Himself.
The Thinker wrote:
Quote You say that God can do anything. I agree.
Context is important since it is self evident that God cannot do evil. So if you are suggesting that He perform an action that is evil then He cannot do it or even consider doing it since it is completely alien to His nature.
The Thinker wrote:
Quote Therefore, He can impose limitations upon Himself if He chooses
He can impose limitations on Himself if they would not be evil but most, if not all, weaknesses I can think of he imposed on Himself would be evil since we need Him to be who He is. I speculate the Trinity tenet attempts to get around that problem by breaking God into parts so that one part does not embrace weaknesses even though another does.
The Thinker wrote:
Quote It means that after God created man He looked upon him and saw the reflection of Himself (before sin of course). So for God to become man would mean that He would exist in His own likeness but in humility instead of power.
I want to make sure I am correct in understanding you. You mean that God created man truly righteous and holy as he is righteous and holy. If that is correct then I agree with you since it is written:
Ecclesiastics 7:29(NIV) reads:
Quote This only have I found: God made mankind upright, but men have gone in search of many schemes.”
This brings up the question of “what do you think of the declaration that Jesus is the image of God?”
How does the answer Jesus being the image of God relate to Jesus having the same nature as God?
The Thinker wrote:
Quote He voluntarily limited Himself (Philippians 2). Kerwin replied:
Quote So you are saying that it was not taking on the human form that put limits on Him but His choice to limit Himself. He chose to limit Himself by taking human form. This is what Philippians 2 clearly teaches.
Kerwin said:
Quote Context is important since it is self evident that God cannot do evil. So if you are suggesting that He perform an action that is evil then He cannot do it or even consider doing it since it is completely alien to His nature. Agreed! Now show me where I have said or even inferred otherwise.
Kerwin said:
Quote He can impose limitations on Himself if they would not be evil but most, if not all, weaknesses I can think of he imposed on Himself would be evil since we need Him to be who He is. Man was created in God's image. Therefore, for God to become a man means that He became like Himself but in humble form. Do you mean to say that humility is “evil”? I don't think you mean this.
Kerwin said:
Quote How does the answer Jesus being the image of God relate to Jesus having the same nature as God? Hebrews 1:3 says this of the Son,
Quote …Who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His Person…. The term “express image” is one word in the Greek (charakter). It means that Jesus is the exactly all that God is. The context goes on to say that He upholds all things by the word of His own power and that the worlds were made by [agency] of Him.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 10 2009,06:15) Gene said to WJ: Quote Because I also believe GOD (ALONE) created everything, Gene,
Don't throw us a “change up” now my bro. Recently you have repeatedly said that impersonal “powers” created all things. I refer to your repeated statements in the “Elohim” thread in the “Truth or Tradition” forum. You clearly deny that Elohim are Persons.thinker
Thinker………What i believe is that Elohim simple means (POWERS) as Jeff Benner has made it very clear that is what the ancient Hebrew understood the word to mean and our concordance agree with that also. Now with that said , Elohim can represent the Powers a person has, its an atribute to the person being referenced to when connected in context. For instance, the LORD (He exists) GOD with (Powers) is what the term LORD GOD means. If we say the Almighty GOD , we simple are saying the most powerful power, this does obviously imply the LORD. Now notice what Jesus quoted, HERE “O” ISRAEL THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE (LORD), notice it does not say THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE GOD. Why, because their can be many God's, but as it says, there is only One true GOD. Is that not what Jesus said in his prayer, FOR THOU ART THE ONLY (TRUE) GOD. Jesus also quoted scripture where it says “did i not say you are gods”, and scripture says Satan is the god of this world. The Lord has give some Powers to rule and those who have them are considered as gods , why because they poses powers given them by the LORD. and again you shall not take the LORD thy God's Name in vain. Notice it say his (name) (LORD) in vain, and then His attributes relating to us Thy GOD ( your powers). The LORD IS OUR POWERS. HE IS OUR LORD GOD.
Hope this helps to show what i was talking about thinker.peace and love to you and your brother…………………….gene
The Thinker wrote:
Quote He chose to limit Himself by taking human form. This is what Philippians 2 clearly teaches.
Then your God is a very weak God to be limited by taking a human form. How do you explain how He is not if you believe the human form can limit Him?
The Thinker wrote:
Quote Man was created in God's image. Therefore, for God to become a man means that He became like Himself but in humble form. Do you mean to say that humility is “evil”? I don't think you mean this.
I mean to say that my faith is not in a limited God but in a God that is in control and does what is right. I assumed your faith was in the same God. In what ways do you believe Jesus is limited by being in the human form?
The Thinker wrote:
Quote The term “express image” is one word in the Greek (charakter). It means that Jesus is the exactly all that God is. The context goes on to say that He upholds all things by the word of His own power and that the worlds were made by [agency] of Him.
So you teach that Jesus is a limited God and an unlimited God at the same time. Isn’t that confusing? If it is not how do you resolve the contradiction?
By the way “charakter” has more than one definition such as “graven” and “mark” and it has even evolved into the English word “character” which seems to indicate it had a meaning similar to it in some contexts.
Quote (Gene @ Mar. 10 2009,14:47) Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 10 2009,06:15) Gene said to WJ: Quote Because I also believe GOD (ALONE) created everything, Gene,
Don't throw us a “change up” now my bro. Recently you have repeatedly said that impersonal “powers” created all things. I refer to your repeated statements in the “Elohim” thread in the “Truth or Tradition” forum. You clearly deny that Elohim are Persons.thinker
Thinker………What i believe is that Elohim simple means (POWERS) as Jeff Benner has made it very clear that is what the ancient Hebrew understood the word to mean and our concordance agree with that also. Now with that said , Elohim can represent the Powers a person has, its an atribute to the person being referenced to when connected in context. For instance, the LORD (He exists) GOD with (Powers) is what the term LORD GOD means. If we say the Almighty GOD , we simple are saying the most powerful power, this does obviously imply the LORD. Now notice what Jesus quoted, HERE “O” ISRAEL THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE (LORD), notice it does not say THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE GOD. Why, because their can be many God's, but as it says, there is only One true GOD. Is that not what Jesus said in his prayer, FOR THOU ART THE ONLY (TRUE) GOD. Jesus also quoted scripture where it says “did i not say you are gods”, and scripture says Satan is the god of this world. The Lord has give some Powers to rule and those who have them are considered as gods , why because they poses powers given them by the LORD. and again you shall not take the LORD thy God's Name in vain. Notice it say his (name) (LORD) in vain, and then His attributes relating to us Thy GOD ( your powers). The LORD IS OUR POWERS. HE IS OUR LORD GOD.
Hope this helps to show what i was talking about thinker.peace and love to you and your brother…………………….gene
Gene,
All words are defined by the group of words with which they are used. In other words, it's all about context. The expression “elohim” is defined by the personal pronouns “Us” and “our”:Quote Let US make man in OUR image and after OUR likeness You were not created in the image of a non-personal entity. Me thinks therefore that Jeff Benner is biased.
thinker
thinker………maybe this will help. Isa 37:16…> O LORD of hosts, God (POWERS) of Israel, that dwells between cherubims, thou are God (POWERS) alone of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou hast made heaven and earth. Now let me paraphrase it for you,
“O” LORD (HE Exists) of Hosts, POWER of Israel. that dwells between the cherubims, you are the POWER, even you alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: you have made heaven and earth.
Isa 44:24…..> Thus saith the LORD (He exists), thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that makes all things, that stretches forth the heavens (ALONE) that spreadeth abroad the earth by (MYSELF). Notice the word (GOD) is not applied Here at all.
thinker, the word GOD,(ELOHIM) is relating an attribute to something, or someone, it in or of it self dose not mean a person or any thing but (POWERS) or those that Poses (POWERS) as in the case of the LORD GOD, (HE EXISTS WITH POWERS) is the way Israel understood it and follows through out scripture as such. I can give you many many examples that back this up brother , but hopefully you can see what i am saying.
love and peace to you and yours……………………….gene
Gene said:
Quote thinker, the word GOD,(ELOHIM) is relating an attribute to something, or someone, it in or of it self dose not mean a person or any thing but (POWERS) or those that Poses (POWERS) as in the case of the LORD GOD, (HE EXISTS WITH POWERS) is the way Israel understood it and follows through out scripture as such. I can give you many many examples that back this up brother , but hopefully you can see what i am saying. Gene,
You have not yet answered my point from the personal pronouns in Geneisis 1:26Quote And Elohim said, “Let US make man in OUR image and after OUR likeness” You said that “elohim” in itself does not mean persons but powers. The word “elohim” is not used used in itself in Genesis 1:26. It is used with personal pronouns. When are you going to answer this?
thinker
Quote (Gene @ Mar. 09 2009,16:58) To All……….the word LOGOS is simply word, it does not imply a person. It is a descriptor and simply means intelligent utterance. because that what a (word) is. and nothing more. Trinitarians and preexistences try to turn logos into a person rather then an attribute of the ONE and ONLY TRUE GOD, so they alter the text by capitalizing and using the definite article to give them support. This is forcing the text, because in the original Greek text all the words were capitalized there were no upper and lower case usage to control their text as we use. This play on the John 1:1 verse to support the Trinitarian ideology and Preexistence ideology is wrong. IMO love and peace to you all…………………………..gene
Gene,
You said that “logos” does not imply a person. Then you said that it simply means “intelligent utterance.” You contradict yourself for the word “intelligent” implies a person. And verse 14 says that the Logos became flesh and that HIS glory was beheld by men,Quote And the Logos became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld HIS glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth The Logos became flesh and dwelt among men. HIS glory was beleld by men and He was full of grace and truth. Yet you say that the Logos is not a person.
You said,
Quote Trinitarians and preexistences try to turn logos into a person rather then an attribute of the ONE and ONLY TRUE GOD, so they alter the text by capitalizing and using the definite article to give them support. You said that the Logos is “an attribute of one and only true God. ” Okay, so let's write verse 14 according to your definition,
Quote And an attribute of the one and only true God became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory…. So Jesus was an attribute of God in the flesh. Right?
thinker
thinker ……brother no the word (WORD) imply s the (ATTRIBUTE) of a person the Same as the word (GOD) by it self that attribute can fit any person . Intelligent utterance is what we all do unless a person is deaf and cant make the sounds needed. A word is an intellegent expression and shows action. The LORD GOD (SPOKE) let there be light and etc. and His (Elohim) POWERS carried it our. J
John 1:1……….has nothing to do with Jesus at all, It's about the LORD GOD HIMSELF, and nothing more. If John wanted to say Jesus He simply would have said Jesus, what would be so hard about that, He know who Jesus was , so we have to conclude He was not talking about Jesus at all. An notice this (word) intelligent utterance was also the light (intellect) of Man, it enlightens ever man coming into the world, it say. Trinitarians and Preexistences have forced the text to mean Jesus, but the texts itself does (NOT) apply to Jesus at all. IMO
love and peace to you and your brother……………………………………..gene
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